I would be interested in hearing others opinion and a third category, not mentioned in TGM, the THROWER.
Does the category exist and how does it square with TGM?
Which TGM alignments would be compatible with the "THROWER”?
The Bear
Hey Bear
In short , Id say that the Thrower pattern as outlined by Ralph Sunnyside can be found in the yellow book. But not as a "third category". RS defines three basic actions: muscular thrust , weight shift and rotation. Homer stuck to pushing vs pulling and didnt rank weight shift as even a power accumulator now that I think about it. Hmmmm. Its all a matter of definition again.
These sorts of discussions are really good I believe. Definition leading to identification . Identification to separation. Separation to mastery (or to insanity perhaps, not sure right now).
Couple of quick points:
-he's talking about hitting as a right arm punch , not so for Major Basic strokes....see what Homer termed the "Right Arm Throw". Its another throwing like motion this time with Active Right Arm extension. Push Basic is the inline punch of the right arm..........for short shots only.
-Hitters have pivot lag in Total Motion.
-I like D's point about longitudinal vs radial .......its a big subject so Im not going to start into it here. I love Bernts post too. In regard to what is mutually exclusive Id suggest that's it. You can not Longitudinal and Radial at the same time. (Can you?) Longitudinal then Radial? ....sure even 12-2 has Radial. In a motor boat pulling a skier kinda way (nothing pushes the skier radially, the boat turns around the small pulley wheel and cf throws the skier out, the speed of the skier going from the boats speed to boat speed plus plus). Or you could Radial only, 12-1 Drive Loading. (not the only way to hit by anymeans). But not Radial then Longitudinal or Longitudinal only. Longitudinal doest have any associated CF throwout. 'Cause its traveling in a straight line. If you're "arrow from quivering" you're not Releasing. This is the straight line hand path , be it theoretical or real.
-I thought I said I wasnt going to get into this, no I didnt, yes I did! ... .... ( No I didnt.) Uh Oh this aint mastery this is insanity.
In short , Id say that the Thrower pattern as outlined by Ralph Sunnyside can be found in the yellow book. But not as a "third category". RS defines three basic actions: muscular thrust , weight shift and rotation. Homer stuck to pushing vs pulling and didnt rank weight shift as even a power accumulator now that I think about it. Hmmmm. Its all a matter of definition again.
These sorts of discussions are really good I believe. Definition leading to identification . Identification to separation. Separation to mastery (or to insanity perhaps, not sure right now).
Couple of quick points:
-he's talking about hitting as a right arm punch , not so for Major Basic strokes....see what Homer termed the "Right Arm Throw". Its another throwing like motion this time with Active Right Arm extension. Push Basic is the inline punch of the right arm..........for short shots only.
-Hitters have pivot lag in Total Motion.
-I like D's point about longitudinal vs radial .......its a big subject so Im not going to start into it here. I love Bernts post too. In regard to what is mutually exclusive Id suggest that's it. You can not Longitudinal and Radial at the same time. (Can you?) Longitudinal then Radial? ....sure even 12-2 has Radial. In a motor boat pulling a skier kinda way (nothing pushes the skier radially, the boat turns around the small pulley wheel and cf throws the skier out, the speed of the skier going from the boats speed to boat speed plus plus). Or you could Radial only, 12-1 Drive Loading. (not the only way to hit by anymeans). But not Radial then Longitudinal or Longitudinal only. Longitudinal doest have any associated CF throwout. 'Cause its traveling in a straight line. If you're "arrow from quivering" you're not Releasing. This is the straight line hand path , be it theoretical or real.
-I thought I said I wasnt going to get into this, no I didnt, yes I did! ... .... ( No I didnt.) Uh Oh this aint mastery this is insanity.
Thanks O.B.
Perhaps the subject should not be approached.
There is sameness and difference.
As I understand. The sameness is in the 24 components. The differences are within the selection of elements within each of the 24.
HK says there is no THE WAY. Selection becomes personal.
BUT
2 categories were implicitly created, hit or swing, which may create a de facto THE WAY. 2 actions-hit or swing.
Should this be?
Chapter 12 creates a pattern selection process and these 2 selected patterns.
But aren't these patterns hortatory, not obligatory? Then why?
The only touch-point is 10-19-(A for one and C for the other or B for either)?
I did not push Humpty-Dumpty off the wall, I just nudged him, Chapter 14 is for pushing.
“I don’t know what you mean by ‘glory,’ ” Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. “Of course you don’t—till I tell you. I meant ‘there’s a nice knock-down argument for you!’ ”
“But ‘glory’ doesn’t mean ‘a nice knock-down argument’,” Alice objected.
“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”
“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master that’s all.”
Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. “They’ve a temper, some of them—particularly verbs, they’re the proudest—adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs—however, I can manage the whole lot! Impenetrability! That’s what I say!”
You’re going to have to ask the Judge what that means.
Is there something outside of pushing and pulling? Can you longitudinal and radial at the same time? Can you walk in a circle and a straight line at the same time?
Ill ask Susan or John even, when Im ten feet tall............
I like the idea of "throwing the club," Bear and the intellectual exercise.
Originally Posted by HungryBear
Thanks O.B.
Perhaps the subject should not be approached.
There is sameness and difference.
As I understand. The sameness is in the 24 components. The differences are within the selection of elements within each of the 24.
HK says there is no THE WAY. Selection becomes personal.
BUT
2 categories were implicitly created, hit or swing, which may create a de facto THE WAY. 2 actions-hit or swing.
Should this be?
Chapter 12 creates a pattern selection process and these 2 selected patterns.
But aren't these patterns hortatory, not obligatory? Then why?
The only touch-point is 10-19-(A for one and C for the other or B for either)?
I did not push Humpty-Dumpty off the wall, I just nudged him, Chapter 14 is for pushing.
“I don’t know what you mean by ‘glory,’ ” Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. “Of course you don’t—till I tell you. I meant ‘there’s a nice knock-down argument for you!’ ”
“But ‘glory’ doesn’t mean ‘a nice knock-down argument’,” Alice objected.
“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”
“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master that’s all.”
Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. “They’ve a temper, some of them—particularly verbs, they’re the proudest—adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs—however, I can manage the whole lot! Impenetrability! That’s what I say!”
You’re going to have to ask the Judge what that means.
The Bear
But I am limited to standing on the ground with two feet. I can either pull or push. I can rotate with either or both feet planted and then I both pull and push depending on the rest of the moves being made.
Now, "Alice" and her friends are works of fiction. I really like fiction but only as it furthers the understanding of facts. I can't remember the book title but the point of the book was that human language needs to be repetitive and a much smaller circle than pure mathematics since there is a very short list of what can happen to a person. There is "nothing new under the sun." However, there are new technologies that happen all the time. A person can hit a golf ball. They can hit it with lots of differing technologies. So the event list of what we can do is rather short but the instrument list is rather undefined. Jerry plays music but does so on different instruments in different places to differing degrees of excellence but it is still playing music.
We push and pull a golf club (nice and simple Bernt ) though we might have cork in the driver or Kevlar.
Alice and HD are arguing about something a lot less grounded than our biomechanical frame. You might be a reader of some of the literary dust-ups in England or France over the use of commas or what constitutes a "real" word. Good fun! And in your quote, as I understand it, HD is actually backing itself into Alice's point. Anyway, good fun, great book!
I would think that Ernest Jones would be an interesting study regarding this idea. Lag the penknife back and through but thrusting for him was tough, I bet.
ICT
__________________
HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
I have a difficult time picturing how a person with two hands couldn't pull and push simultaneously.
Why couldn't they?
Works well for turning shopping carts.
Can the same hand push and pull? I don't see how.
Can one hand push and and hand pull? I don't see why not.
Is it a good thing? Wish I knew.
Seems like, in theory, it would be worth investigating.
In the World of TGM, Zone 2 is the application of mechanical advantage to increase Pivot Speed. The Straightening of the "Triangle" by Left Arm or Right Arm is mechanical advantage. The #2 Accumulator is also mechanical advantage whether it's passive or active, using CF or Power Package Thrust respectively. So, moving from bent to straight IS(part of) the mechanical advantage. It doesn't matter if you push or pull. That's only the "How". But the Pivot supplies all of the Power.
TGM is very much about the Pivot Supplying all of the Power (in Pivot Strokes). Somewhere it says that the arms should not substitute for the pivot.
Don't let me mislead you. The Arms are Power, but only in the sense that the Power comes from a "Pulley" or "Inclined Plane" or "Screw" or "Lever".
The Pivot is direct energy, stored by the Accumulators as Potential energy and released into Clubhead Kinetic Energy.
Anyway, I think I got most of that right. Pushing and Pulling is the "How" of Mechanical Advantage. Push and Pull is "How" the Accumulators are released. If three Accumulators aren't adding enough advantage, use four. That means you can store potential Power in 4 places, then increase or decrease their release overlap to refine.
Homer Kelley isn't saying that that's the way everybody gets the job done but he is saying that that's the way everybody "should" get the job done.
Quote:
No amount of effort will produce more than a player’s maximum turning speed. Regardless of effort you simply cannot push anything faster than you can run. Mechanical Advantage (1-H) must be utilized making Clubhead acceleration on “Overtaking” process (2-P, 6-M-1).
Mechanical Advantage is the factor by which a mechanism multiplies the force applied to it.
This is just a personal note from me. It's unfortunate that TGM seems so focused on pulling and pushing. Homer gave everything equal emphasis but because component variations need to be chosen in light of Hitting or Swinging, it seems to have gotten a lot of "Press" time.
Pushing and pulling is rudimentary. Absorb Zone 1,2 and 3 and keep their identities separate. The magic, mystery, answers, are not found in Hitting vs Swinging.
If I recall it right, Mehlhorn had an advice/tips where you could push out with right hand and pull in with left hand during the swing. I have the book somewhere.
__________________
Golf is an impossible game with impossible tools - Winston Churchill
In the World of TGM, Zone 2 is the application of mechanical advantage to increase Pivot Speed. The Straightening of the "Triangle" by Left Arm or Right Arm is mechanical advantage. The #2 Accumulator is also mechanical advantage whether it's passive or active, using CF or Power Package Thrust respectively. So, moving from bent to straight IS(part of) the mechanical advantage. It doesn't matter if you push or pull. That's only the "How". But the Pivot supplies all of the Power.
TGM is very much about the Pivot Supplying all of the Power (in Pivot Strokes). Somewhere it says that the arms should not substitute for the pivot.
Don't let me mislead you. The Arms are Power, but only in the sense that the Power comes from a "Pulley" or "Inclined Plane" or "Screw" or "Lever".
The Pivot is direct energy, stored by the Accumulators as Potential energy and released into Clubhead Kinetic Energy.
Anyway, I think I got most of that right. Pushing and Pulling is the "How" of Mechanical Advantage. Push and Pull is "How" the Accumulators are released. If three Accumulators aren't adding enough advantage, use four. That means you can store potential Power in 4 places, then increase or decrease their release overlap to refine.
Homer Kelley isn't saying that that's the way everybody gets the job done but he is saying that that's the way everybody "should" get the job done.
Mechanical Advantage is the factor by which a mechanism multiplies the force applied to it.
This is just a personal note from me. It's unfortunate that TGM seems so focused on pulling and pushing. Homer gave everything equal emphasis but because component variations need to be chosen in light of Hitting or Swinging, it seems to have gotten a lot of "Press" time.
Pushing and pulling is rudimentary. Absorb Zone 1,2 and 3 and keep their identities separate. The magic, mystery, answers, are not found in Hitting vs Swinging.
great post Daryl (another keeper for my sheet, thankyou)
Last edited by tim chapman : 11-27-2010 at 07:00 AM.
COMMENTARY- Perhaps the subject should not be approached
I start with 2 notes:
This is all in fun, I do not mean to tease or annoy anyone.
I Remind everyone that, as I opened before, ”Perhaps the subject should not be approached”.
O.B. said:
Is there something outside of pushing and pulling? Can you longitudinal and radial at the same time? Can you walk in a circle and a straight line at the same time?
Ill ask Susan or John even, when Im ten feet tall............
This Alice in Wonderland quotation is often cited by the courts regarding the exactitude of the construction of language.
An example is contained within TVA v. Hill , 437 U.S. 153 [Footnote 18}
Zap! You are now 14 feet tall.
City said.
Now, "Alice" and her friends are works of fiction. I really like fiction but only as it furthers the understanding of facts.
I covered that above
Alice and HD are arguing about something a lot less grounded than our biomechanical frame. You might be a reader of some of the literary dust-ups in England or France over the use of commas or what constitutes a "real" word. Good fun! And in your quote, as I understand it, HD is actually backing itself into Alice's point. Anyway, good fun, great book!
I will cover that at the end of this
I would think that Ernest Jones would be an interesting study regarding this idea. Lag the penknife back and through but thrusting for him was tough, I bet.
By golly he would.
Daryl said: With his customary insight
Pushing and pulling is rudimentary. Absorb Zone 1,2 and 3 and keep their identities separate. The magic, mystery, answers, are not found in Hitting vs Swinging.
---------------------------------------------------
I implore myself to finish the Humpty Dumpty Quotation, this time with attribution, as a means to reiterate my lead comment.
"Impenetrability! That's what I say!"
"Would you tell me, please," said Alice "what that means?"
"Now you talk like a reasonable child," said Humpty Dumpty, looking very much pleased. "I meant by 'impenetrability' that we've had enough of that subject, and it would be just as well if you'd mention what you mean to do next, as I suppose you don't mean to stop here all the rest of your life."
"That's a great deal to make one word mean," Alice said in a thoughtful tone.
"When I make a word do a lot of work like that," said Humpty Dumpty, "I always pay it extra."
—Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass, 1872
The Bear
Last edited by HungryBear : 11-27-2010 at 01:17 PM.
I have a difficult time picturing how a person with two hands couldn't pull and push simultaneously.
Why couldn't they?
Works well for turning shopping carts.
Can the same hand push and pull? I don't see how.
Can one hand push and and hand pull? I don't see why not.
Is it a good thing? Wish I knew.
Seems like, in theory, it would be worth investigating.
You can push and pull at the same time BUT there are implications. The implications dependent upon what point you are at in the swing. For instance if you were in start down, pushing at the #1 is radial and will destroy the pullings longitudinal....so they are at cross purposes. Mutually exclusive in terms of longitudinal and radial. Longitudinal delaying release , radial being release.
Now take pulling radially and pushing radially say in a putting stroke or in the case of a push/pull initiated during the radial acceleration portion of a full stroke ........You can do this as well. This time with no disruption of longitudinal because it assumed to be not present in the first place, BUT here you are subject to the fact that the right arm push and the left arm pull no not have the same directional vectors to their respective forces. Their forces are not aligned , not pointing in the same exact direction. The arms themselves attach to the body at different places , opposite shoulders and therefor their associated movements are not identical nor is the direction of the force they apply. Scattered vectors being a disruption to Total Compression 2-C. Two horses bridled to a cart but pointing in different directions. The extent to which you employ them together at the same time is the extent to which you will have compensate for the inherent divergence in their vectors. This maybe the #1 reason for my improved putting , that and Hinge Action. Although I go back and forth between pulling it back with the right and then pulling it through with the left or pushing it through with the right or rocking the shoulders it through all with one accumulator and Angled Hinge Action. Ah component separation , thank you Lynn. But I digress.
Homer's prescription: Pull (swing) or Push (hit) or Pull then Push (four b) but dont push and pull at the same time , its especially damaging in Startdown , less so during radial acceleration but still incredibly disruptive given the critical nature of that stage....impact, putting etc.
Even on the way back in the backswing HOmer tried to separate Pulling and Pushing. The Push of the shoulder turn takeaway, which is inept at getting the club UP (in Total Motion) and instead tends to take it IN too much , under plane, ........gives way to a Right Forearm Takeaway or "Pick up" which is a definite Pull. So Swinger and Hitter alike both Pull on the way back, be it a "swing back" or a "carry back". That isnt to say you cant employ a Shoulder Turn takeaway.............. Bobby Clampett , Plummer and B, Mac even maybe ........ But Homer preferred a Pull there. Like Seve employed. Yes Seve......its in his book. The Paderno of his youth was safely removed from the golf digests of the 60's and early 70's.
Push or Pull or Pull then Push but dont push and pull at the same time if you want to be straight as well as powerful.
Im not saying you cant Throw it. I do. To my mind you can actively " throw" a push or a pull. Hit or Right Arm Swing. The "throw" also seems to lie within the distinction of the position of the right elbow to me.......Push vs Punch. Push basic (short shots only) vs Right Arm throw, fanning and bending. I Right Arm Throw, right after I Throw my Right s
Shoulder. Just as I was taught to do......at the Swamp and Cuscowilla.
In fact Id go so far as to say that if anyone here is trying to Hit, full shots, total motion, with an inline "punching", shot putting, Push Basic motion ............. STOP. Ralph demonstrates his definition of a Hit as being inline push with a sort of knock down type abbreviated follow through. Thats a different fish......... a different argument ..........a knock down argument per Humpty Dumpty.
) though we might have cork in the driver or Kevlar.
Hybrid Mode
