For those of us who adhere to long established definitions.... COAM cannot and does not apply to the golf swing. COAM is short for Conservation of angular momentum.... Its what causes a spinning ice-skater to speed up as she pulls in her arms (ie decreases here moment of inertia). By definition the ice skater already has all of the angular momentum she will ever have when she begins to spin.... She adjusts her moment of inertia by pulling in her arms and that translates directly to a higher angular velocity. THAT IS COAM.... GOLF ON THE OTHER HAND.... NO SUCH THING OCCURS.
During the golf swing the golfer is constantly adding energy.... The golf swing is a gestalt or EVENT not a situation where energy (angular or otherwise) is being conserved. We're dealing here with long established well defined Mechanics (which is a branch of physics) terminology.... COAM can ONLY apply to an object subject to a CENTRAL force. A CENTRAL FORCE is one that by DEFINITION cannot add to or reduce rotation (a central force is directed though the center of rotation.. by definition!). A golfer is NEVER an object subjected to central force and therefore COAM can NEVER apply to golfer or club... ever
Data? I don't need no stinkin' data because I understand the subject matter.
It's good to listen to opposite positions, especially when they are so convinced the other is in error. Whatever.
Mr no COAM ever, I applaud your talk, even if you unwisely dismiss the presence of data and the implications it may have for how to train for a golf swing.
Daryl, and I think this is the point of Bio, did Homer ever explain how his insights were to be incorporated into the movement patterns of each person? The semantics of "physics" or "geometry" aside, each person moves the club using their nervous system and muscles which must be ordered in a sequence.
Bio suggests a way to measure and train movement to produce optimal (based on measurements) club head speed AND injury risk, based on the data of many previous measured case examples.
Agree or disagree with the terminology if you like but I for one can see the benefit of the diagnosis and training of specific movement patterns for golf.
Daryl, maybe you are lucky enough to not need this as you intuitively found an efficient pattern. I have not been screened but from the little freely available information and some cheaply available, I have learned enough to know that in conjunction with TGM instruction my understanding and ability to golf is enhanced immensely.
Daryl, and I think this is the point of Bio, did Homer ever explain how his insights were to be incorporated into the movement patterns of each person?
Actually, yes. And while reviewing the following quote, please notice that Homer displays his poetic sense of humor.
Quote:
The program for solid progress is the acquisition of one factor at a time. Starting any place. But preferably at one end of the machine or the other – the clubface or the feet. Preferably the feet. At the Driving Range or Golf Course. Preferably at the Driving Range. With or without professional instruction. Preferable with. Advisedly with! Imploredly with!!!
Then the fitting, adjusting and aligning are continually rechecked and refined toward “zero deviation” from the ideal, for every item listed on the selected Stroke Patterns – over and over – with steady, satisfying improvement. Basics, as well as Variations, are always interpreted and adjusted to the requirements of the governing Stroke Pattern as a whole.
Bold by daryl
In other words, Homer is imploring you to, Start from the ground up at a driving range with a qualified TGM Instructor.
Why take a lesson in Pivot Controlled Hands when you can take a lesson in Hands Controlled Pivot?
Daryl, this IS what Bio does. He works from the feet as it said was preferable in bold by you. He works closely WITH his students to achieve this as you said. He works his way up the link/zones with a series of progressive skills training to create a movement that creates power through a repeatable swing. From there either the hands or the pivot could be in control, up to the individual I'd say. If that basis is established then great things can be achieved using the mechanics of TGM, look at Brian Gay, he did it in this order from what I understand.
The main issue for me is also movement with the least risk of injury! I have a bad back but am playing powerful pain free golf with these better movement patterns, also much better golf. I am experiencing steady, extremely satisfying improvement.
For those of us who adhere to long established definitions.... COAM cannot and does not apply to the golf swing. COAM is short for Conservation of angular momentum.... Its what causes a spinning ice-skater to speed up as she pulls in her arms (ie decreases here moment of inertia). By definition the ice skater already has all of the angular momentum she will ever have when she begins to spin.... She adjusts her moment of inertia by pulling in her arms and that translates directly to a higher angular velocity. THAT IS COAM.... GOLF ON THE OTHER HAND.... NO SUCH THING OCCURS.
During the golf swing the golfer is constantly adding energy.... The golf swing is a gestalt or EVENT not a situation where energy (angular or otherwise) is being conserved. We're dealing here with long established well defined Mechanics (which is a branch of physics) terminology.... COAM can ONLY apply to an object subject to a CENTRAL force. A CENTRAL FORCE is one that by DEFINITION cannot add to or reduce rotation (a central force is directed though the center of rotation.. by definition!). A golfer is NEVER an object subjected to central force and therefore COAM can NEVER apply to golfer or club... ever
Data? I don't need no stinkin' data because I understand the subject matter.
No Mind,
we aren't talk about COAM conservation of angular momentum.
we are talking about COM conservation of Momentum.
What do you know about human motion physics.
What do you know about moevement patterns, do you understand how movement patterns functions. Or how the human body want to move naturally.
do you understand this subject matter?
Not sure why your going on about COAM i never mentioned it.
Whoa, I'm not criticizing Bio-Mechanics. Far from it. I look forward to learning about your findings. I agree that the Swing should be from the "Ground Up". Completely.
My criticisms are with your belief that TGM is not about Zone 1 (the Pivot) and other of your misrepresentations of TGM concepts.
Additionally you fail to acknowledge that different Delivery Paths are supported by different Pivots. Incompatibility. Circle Path and Straight Line Path do not use the same Pivot. I think that Bio-Mechanics should account for the Players choice. But your quest to find "more Power" disregards much of the subtlety that different Pivots provide. And Zero Pivot is an option.
Daryl,
There could be a communication break down here somewhere.
TGM I'm not say that TGM doesn't employ zone 1 first.
Homer says it in black and white totally agree with him. And really like how he mentions in the book from the ground up.
Now that amazes me how he worked it out and homer was ahead of his time. I wish Homer was around today cause I would have love to worked with him and done research with him.
TGM is an amazing book and has some great stuff.
Problem is, in writing, things can come across wrong and if I have I apologise to you and everyone.
To try and communicate biomechanics and movement patterns in writing is very difficult. If i could speak verbally, I can do it on my ear and you would develop a very good understanding quickly. To do this in writing is hard one and is very hard to describe something to someone in a way, so they can develop a picture of what I'm speaking about. Not easy.
How long did it take you to develop an understanding of TGM, did you grasp it first time you picked the book up or was it a continually studies of the book and attedning education seminars.
Same with biomecahnics it will take you a while to develop a basic understanding.
In golf we need physics and geometry.
To do we achieve physics in golf.
How does physics work in human motion or how does the human body move in.
I'm trying to explain how the body moves naturally and how the body wants to create speed.
Once people understand this, then we can move onto, how do we train movement patterns and get the body to move the way it wants to naturally or designed to move to create speed.
Daryl lets remove the golf club from our hands, lets remove plane lines, angles and remove the club.
Lets look at how the body moves then lets add the club later.
What we must understand is, How the body wants to move and is designed to move.
Ask a doctor he can explain how the hips turn and shoulders turn.
I could never work out why the doctor said to me your back shouldn't hurt when you play golf. I know why now.
Hitting or swinging the body moves the same way. It may appear different with geometry added. With out geometry same moves.
Hips and shoulder turn are the same motion in hitting or swinging. When you remove the geometry.
What I'm trying to do is educate people how to create the movement patterns so you can apply TGM to it.
How does a pivot function, how do you create a pivot.
What creates hip rotation and hip rotational speed.
What creates shoulder rotations and upper body speed.
This is what I have been trying to educate people about. How do we create the above and how can we train the body to do it.
Working on plane lines on the practice fairway is going to train movement patterns, that's geometry.
Also to identify what the body is doing you have to measure the bodies movement patterns.
Hips speeds,upper body speeds and arms speed. Muscular loading, trunk stability ( If your turning around the axis of the spine) is the hips moving perpendicular to the spine are the shoulders doing the same.
If you have too much right lateral bending of the spine this effects your geometry, if the hips are sliding too much along the target line effects your geometry.
How can we apply geometry effectively if we can't move our bodies effectively in the first place.
Would it be fair to say that with some peoples golf swing issue,are from poor movement patterns. Which is effecting the way they are able to apply their geometry.
Maybe it's not homers work is the problem, maybe it's peoples movement patterns which prevent them applying TGM effectively.
Food for some thought
Last edited by bioengine : 08-10-2009 at 01:41 AM.
I'm trying to explain how the body moves naturally and how the body wants to create speed.
Once people understand this, then we can move onto, how do we train movement patterns and get the body to move the way it wants to naturally or designed to move to create speed.
Daryl lets remove the golf club from our hands, lets remove plane lines, angles and remove the club.
Lets look at how the body moves then lets add the club later.
What we must understand is, How the body wants to move and is designed to move.
Ask a doctor he can explain how the hips turn and shoulders turn.
I could never work out why the doctor said to me your back shouldn't hurt when you play golf. I know why now.
Hitting or swinging the body moves the same way. It may appear different with geometry added. With out geometry same moves.
Hips and shoulder turn are the same motion in hitting or swinging. When you remove the geometry.
What I'm trying to do is educate people how to create the movement patterns so you can apply TGM to it.
How does a pivot function, how do you create a pivot.
What creates hip rotation and hip rotational speed.
What creates shoulder rotations and upper body speed.
This is what I have been trying to educate people about. How do we create the above and how can we train the body to do it.
Working on plane lines on the practice fairway is going to train movement patterns, that's geometry.
Also to identify what the body is doing you have to measure the bodies movement patterns.
Hips speeds,upper body speeds and arms speed. Muscular loading, trunk stability ( If your turning around the axis of the spine) is the hips moving perpendicular to the spine are the shoulders doing the same.
If you have too much right lateral bending of the spine this effects your geometry, if the hips are sliding too much along the target line effects your geometry.
How can we apply geometry effectively if we can't move our bodies effectively in the first place.
Would it be fair to say that with some peoples golf swing issue,are from poor movement patterns. Which is effecting the way they are able to apply their geometry.
Maybe it's not homers work is the problem, maybe it's peoples movement patterns which prevent them applying TGM effectively.
Food for some thought
bioengine, I appreciate your effort on this topic, which hopefully can be helpful to the field.
My only question, so far, to you, with due respect, is:
How close does (especially) your swing (or those you trained) match with those you described, presumably you know what to do or apply for the best?
To me, what you mentioned, including body movements, sequences, biomechanics and so on, are "Effects", like all the mechanics under the hood of a car. Once engineerred, they react faithfully to what the driver do, pressing the acceleration paddel or the break or steering the steering wheel for example, to function.
The human body is basically well engineerred by the creator, as well. They function by reacting, in a naturally coordinated way, to what the brain tells them to do, which is the "Cause", like the driver's act. You don't really need to mess around with what under the hood to drive a car.
The body, the club and the ball move according to the physical "Law", with which you don't want to mess around, either. More control (effect oriented) means more manipulation and potentionally more interference. Instead of finding the "Effect", which can be very informative, I prefer to identify the "Cause", the acceleration paddel, the steering wheel, the gear shifter, the break paddel and so on, and let the car do what it is supposed to. Afterall, I'm not sure if those golfers of your model knew what's going on in their bodies while making a swing or a shot. They got to "do something" for sure and the point is what it is, which is unlikely what you saw. How can you see what's going on in one's head?
I love to see what's going on in the body, the club and the ball during a swing. But, to make one, I prefer to do the "Cause".
__________________ Yani Tseng, Go! Go! Go! Yani Tseng Did It Again! YOU load and sustain the "LAG", during which the "LAW" releases it, ideally beyond impact.
"Sustain (Yang/陽) the lag (Yin/陰)" is "the unification of Ying and Yang" (陰陽合一).
The "LAW" creates the "effect", which is the "motion" or "feel", with the "cause", which is the "intent" or "command".
"Lag" is the secret of golf, passion is the secret of life.
Think as a golfer, execute like a robot.
Rotate, twist, spin, turn. Bend the shaft.
Well whatever agrees or disagrees with the Book I have been doing my exercises for about 2 months now and not only has my swing changed enormously but it has gone straight to better. No months of struggling while I embed new actions. The only struggle has been that I have needed to make some small adjustments to my grip because I was getting a different ball flight and needed to adjust for it.
On the weekend, after a combined practice schedule of 12 hours (in total since I received my exercises) I hit the most fairways I have ever hit, I hit it longer, consistently, by about 20m. I was getting wonderful compression and divots from my irons. And I scored my equal best ever score against par, despite taking 38 putts. I haven't had a full swing training session at the range for over 3 months. And I am hitting the ball so much better than I ever have.
In fact the only problem I have is trusting how well I'm hitting it, and getting my mind out of the way when I swing. Previously I'd be running through the mechanics as I stood over the ball and then try and execute. Now I check where I want it to go and then go. No technique thought. No feel thoughts. Just swinging the club.
I love biomechanics. They are easy to do. Fun actually. They don't take me away from my family for hours. And they work. They really work. Much better than I could have imagined. And I'm not even doing them as often as I should. I could have improved even more! Scary.
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