What if the 'engineering' under the hood is not really that good? All the other stuff will be a waste of time, it'll take you so long to get there if in fact you do at all? If the creator did such a good job why can't we all play off scratch?
BioMechanics, I appreciate your effort on this topic, which hopefully can be helpful to the field.
My only question, so far, to you, with due respect, is:
How close is (especially) your swing (or those you trained) match with those you described, presumably you know what to do or apply for the best?
To me, what you mentioned, including body movements, sequences, biomechanics and so on, are "Effects", like all the mechanics under the hood of a car. Once engineerred, they react faithfully to what the drive do, pressing the acceleration padel or the break or steering the steering wheel for example, to function.
The human body is basically well engineerred by the creator. They function by reacting, in a naturally coordinated way, to what the brain tells them to do, which is the "Cause", like the driver's act. You don't really need to mess around with what under the hood to drive a car.
The body, the club and the ball moves according to the physical "Law", which you don't want to mess around, either. More control (effect) means more manipulation and potentionally more interference. Instead of finding the "Effect", which can be very informative, I prefer to find the "Cause", the acceleration paddel, the steering wheel, the gear shifter, the break paddel and so on, and let the car do what it is supposed to. Afterall, I'm not sure if those golfers of your model knew what's going on in their bodies while making a swing or a shot. They got to "do something" for sure and the point is what it is, which is unlikely what you saw. How can you see what's going on in one's head?
I love to see what's going on in the body, the club and the ball during a swing. But, to make one, I prefer to do the "Cause".
If you are talking about the unconscious mind I think you may be right. And what Biomechanic teaches is exercises that train your unconscious movement patterns to become more efficient. The only other way I have heard to train these is through consciously repeating a mechanical action to create "muscle memory". This is a slow process requiring repetition after repetition.
I have no idea why the training works. I have done very little training yet it has had an almost instant and noticable impact, both to my swing and my results. Biomechanic trains the causes that lead to clubhead lag, that lead to a flat left wrist and that lead to an on plane swing. I haven't worked on any of these effects. Not one. Instead I am being trained in what causes them.
To apply your analogy a good race driver does not think about the pedals, the wheel, or the brake. A good driver sees the line they want to drive on and their body responds with the right mechanical activities to put the car on that line at the highest possible speed. It is learner drivers who have to think about gears, pedals and wheels - and they don't drive very well.
You cannot find out what happens in a top level golfers mind, except that they will tell you "very little". I remember an article where they measured Greg Norman's pre shot routine. They found that his bad shots almost always has a pre shot routine that is slightly longer than normal. His best shots come when he goes into autopilot. And you cannot be taught autopilot from another person.
Biomechanic doesn't try and measure what happens in other people's heads. What he does measure is what happens with their bodies in incredible detail. He assessesd what happens and can say what is good and what is harmful. And he has exercises that he can use to improve the good and remove what is harmful. And this is what is key to what he has to offer. He has exercises that train your body to have more efficient and effective movement patterns, which have been proven to work through lots and lots of testing. TGM has all this information on what your swing should do. Biomechanic has information on how you can do it, and exercises to teach you to do it.
It's not that this is the only way to play better golf. As Daryl has pointed out he is an example of someone who plays very good golf and has never had this training. But this is such an efficient way to improve. I mean, how much improvement would you expect from 12 hours of exercises performed over 10 weeks? Particularly if your swing completely changed from a long, upright, handsy action to a flat, short action. And all this with no instruction on setup, on grip, on plane, on backswing, on footwork, on hinge actions, on the right arm, on flat left wrist, on bent right wrist, on driving the shoulder, on weight shift, on power packages, on anything that looked like golf mechanics.
And you know what? I am sure I am learning many of these things. I am getting compression that I didn't even know existed. I must have a FLW or I wouldn't get that. I must have lag or I wouldn't get that.
Nice post Weeties. I feel the same improvement. I have not 'thought' about my full swing of late at all, just done my PST's as instructed (though I might add I do understand my faults/issues and areas that need to be improved by the PST program, I just don't consciously need to address them). Today I went out for 9 holes and shot 2 over, which for me is by far a PB. Now sure, you have good days, but it felt like my body new what to do without any swing thoughts due to the training I've been doing. My ball striking was beautiful (for me). Of course having said that last month I did lots of basic motion chipping working my hinges so my short game is pretty good too.
I'm working at both ends of the chain, just to be safe.
Nice post Weeties. I feel the same improvement. I have not 'thought' about my full swing of late at all, just done my PST's as instructed. Today I went out for 9 holes and shot 2 over, which for me is by far a PB. Now sure, you have good days, but it felt like my body new what to do without any swing thoughts due to the training I've been doing. My ball striking was beautiful (for me). Of course having said that last month I did lots of basic motion chipping working my hinges so my short game is pretty good too.
I'm working at both ends of the chain, just to be safe.
Thanks stinkler. I have been working on my short game a little. But I need to pick it up a bit. Will need to get to the range for this because I am starting to be able to hit it the distance I want (because I've been practicing with a basket in the back yard) but I am getting way more backspin that I'm used to (a non-distance ball plus I'm getting some compression) so I am coming up short a fair bit. But that is something I can work on.
And those 6-10 foot putts too. I'm realising just how critical they are. Now that I can expect to get around the green in regulation or one over.
I have not had a chance to read all of the posts. I guess my understandimg of the relationship between action/motion...physics/geometry is all screwed up. I viewed it as geometry making physics behave, kinda like a blueprint for a building. Bio when you publish something let us know. My beliefs concerning the golf stroke are based on the integrity of Homer Kelley's classic work, not my own theories but my limited understanding of his. In that sense I have nothing new to add. but I do believe that originality is nothing but judicious imitation!
No Mind,
we aren't talk about COAM conservation of angular momentum.
we are talking about COM conservation of Momentum.
Again Conservation of Momentum does not apply... Data shows a golfer's muscles are active through out the swing. Nothing is being conserved. No chains are snapping. Momentum is not being transfered from one body segment to another (IF SO PROVE IT.. this I want to see)
Originally Posted by bioengine
What do you know about human motion physics.
What do you know about moevement patterns, do you understand how movement patterns functions. Or how the human body want to move naturally.
do you understand this subject matter?
I know that the scientific disipline is called Kinesiology not "human motion physics". Although I have studied anatomy, physiology and human factors as it pertains to engineering I know that I am not passing myself off as a kinesiology expert attempting to sell videos and diagnostic lessons. You on the other hand are. What exactly are your qualifications bioengine?
Yes we know you once golfed well and but that hardly qualifies you as an expert on the subject matter does it? Such rationalization would suggest Tiger Woods is the best kinesiologist in the world..... I think not. I suspect everyone on this forum is as qualified to discuss these matters. My gripe is with the constant misuse of the vocabulary and the selling of snake oil though I admit even placebos can be effective... for a time.
Originally Posted by bioengine
Not sure why your going on about COAM i never mentioned it.
COAM... COM ... neither apply.
Last edited by no_mind_golfer : 08-10-2009 at 03:47 PM.
There is plenty of information in the National Library of Medicine(Pubmed) such as this from Sports Medicine 2005 NZ Patria A. Hume, Justin Keogh, and Duncan Reid
"Golf biomechanics applies the principles and technique of mechanics to the structure and function of the golfer in an effort to improve golf technique and performance. A common recommendation for technical correction is maintaining a single fixed center hub of rotation with a two-lever one-hinge moment arm to impart force on the ball. The primary and secondary spinal angles are important for conservation of angular momentum using the kinetic link principle to generate high club-head velocity. When the golfer wants to maximize the distance of their drives, relatively large ground reaction forces (GRF) need to be produced. However, during the backswing, a greater proportion of the GRF will be observed on the back foot, with transfer of the GRF on to the front foot during the downswing/acceleration phase. Rapidly stretching hip, trunk and upper limb muscles during the backswing, maximizing the X-factor early in the downswing, and uncocking the wrists when the lead arm is about 30 degrees below the horizontal will take advantage of the summation of force principle. This will help generate large angular velocity of the club head, and ultimately ball displacement. Physical conditioning will help to recruit the muscles in the correct sequence and to optimum effect. To maximize the accuracy of chipping and putting shots, the golfer should produce a lower grip on the club and a slower/shorter backswing. Consistent patterns of shoulder and wrist movements and temporal patterning result in successful chip shots. Qualitative and quantitative methods are used to biomechanically assess golf techniques. Two- and three-dimensional videography, force plate analysis and electromyography techniques have been employed. The common golf biomechanics principles necessary to understand golf technique are stability, Newton's laws of motion (inertia, acceleration, action reaction), lever arms, conservation of angular momentum, projectiles, the kinetic link principle and the stretch-shorten cycle. Biomechanics has a role in maximizing the distance and accuracy of all golf shots (swing and putting) by providing both qualitative and quantitative evidence of body angles, joint forces and muscle activity patterns. The quantitative biomechanical data needs to be interpreted by the biomechanist and translated into coaching points for golf professionals and coaches. An understanding of correct technique will help the sports medicine practitioner provide sound technical advice and should help reduce the risk of golfing injury." I am having my local medical library obtain the full text article for me. I have also found my Physical Therapist, Massage Therapist and Fitness Trainer have been helpful. This is great supplemental information to enhance Homer's devotees quest to master G.O.L.F. Sorry I can't get much meat out of Bio's comments.
That sounds too me exactly what Bio does, it's all there. Especially the reduce injury bit. I reckon Physical Therapists, Massage Therapists and Fitness Trainers deal with repairing injury, not avoiding them, unless they know how to swing a club with better movement patterns? Physio guys make a good living on tour dealing with Pro pain.
Homers devotees? Do you give out coupons?
Hey No_Mind, tough call saying it's snake oil when you haven't even checked it out? Guilty till proven innocent hey? The world is flat I say!
Judicious imitation, snake oil, sound like anti-buzz words?
This is nothing more than a TGM Pivot for a Straight Line Delivery Path.
Golf biomechanics applies the principles and technique of mechanics (Alignments and Physics) to the structure and function of the golfer in an effort to improve golf technique and performance. A common recommendation for technical correction is maintaining a single fixed center hub of rotation (Stationary Head) with a two-lever one-hinge moment arm (Primary and Secondary Levers with a Cocked Left Wrist) to impart force on the ball. The primary and secondary spinal angles (Waist bend and Tilt) are important for conservation of angular momentum using the kinetic link principle (Pivot controlled Hands) to generate high club-head velocity. When the golfer wants to maximize the distance of their drives, relatively large ground reaction forces (GRF) need to be produced (Swing from the Feet). However, during the backswing, a greater proportion of the GRF will be observed on the back foot (the Back Right Foot), with transfer of the GRF on to the front foot (front right foot) during the downswing/acceleration phase (Hey, what about the left Foot, it has important functions too). Rapidly stretching hip, trunk and upper limb muscles during the backswing, maximizing the X-factor early in the downswing, and uncocking the wrists when the lead arm is about 30 degrees below the horizontal (Please, hackers only. Better Golfers Hands will pass the line of sight to the ball at Release) will take advantage of the summation of force principle. This will help generate large angular velocity of the club head, and ultimately ball displacement (Faster Clubhead speeds make the ball go farther). Physical conditioning will help to recruit the muscles in the correct sequence and to optimum effect (Physical connditioning may help you swing faster). To maximize the accuracy of chipping and putting shots, the golfer should produce a lower grip on the club and a slower/shorter backswing. Consistent patterns of shoulder and wrist movements and temporal patterning result in successful chip shots (practice makes perfect). Qualitative and quantitative methods are used to biomechanically assess golf techniques (the guy with the longest drive has better technique). Two- and three-dimensional videography, force plate analysis and electromyography techniques have been employed (because they have no clue whats happening when they observe a Golfer). The common golf biomechanics principles necessary to understand golf technique are stability, Newton's laws of motion (inertia, acceleration, action reaction), lever arms, conservation of angular momentum, projectiles, the kinetic link principle and the stretch-shorten cycle. Biomechanics has a role in maximizing the distance and accuracy of all golf shots (swing and putting) by providing both qualitative and quantitative evidence of body angles, joint forces and muscle activity patterns (10% pay raise per year if BioMechanists Unionize). The quantitative biomechanical data needs to be interpreted by the biomechanist and translated into coaching points for golf professionals and coaches (not enough money teaching kids). An understanding of correct technique will help the sports medicine practitioner provide sound technical advice and should help reduce the risk of golfing injury. (Golfer says: “It hurts when I do this”, the Doctor replies: “then stop doing it”.)
the guy with the longest drive has better technique
because they have no clue whats happening when they observe a Golfer
not enough money teaching kids
10% pay raise per year if BioMechanists Unionize
Golfer says: “It hurts when I do this”, the Doctor replies: “then stop doing it”
So Daryl, does being a smart arse help your students get better?
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