For those of us who adhere to long established definitions.... COAM cannot and does not apply to the golf swing. COAM is short for Conservation of angular momentum.... Its what causes a spinning ice-skater to speed up as she pulls in her arms (ie decreases here moment of inertia). By definition the ice skater already has all of the angular momentum she will ever have when she begins to spin.... She adjusts her moment of inertia by pulling in her arms and that translates directly to a higher angular velocity. THAT IS COAM.... GOLF ON THE OTHER HAND.... NO SUCH THING OCCURS.
During the golf swing the golfer is constantly adding energy.... The golf swing is a gestalt or EVENT not a situation where energy (angular or otherwise) is being conserved. We're dealing here with long established well defined Mechanics (which is a branch of physics) terminology.... COAM can ONLY apply to an object subject to a CENTRAL force. A CENTRAL FORCE is one that by DEFINITION cannot add to or reduce rotation (a central force is directed though the center of rotation.. by definition!). A golfer is NEVER an object subjected to central force and therefore COAM can NEVER apply to golfer or club... ever
Data? I don't need no stinkin' data because I understand the subject matter.
No Mind,
we aren't talk about COAM conservation of angular momentum.
we are talking about COM conservation of Momentum.
What do you know about human motion physics.
What do you know about moevement patterns, do you understand how movement patterns functions. Or how the human body want to move naturally.
do you understand this subject matter?
Not sure why your going on about COAM i never mentioned it.
No Mind,
we aren't talk about COAM conservation of angular momentum.
we are talking about COM conservation of Momentum.
Again Conservation of Momentum does not apply... Data shows a golfer's muscles are active through out the swing. Nothing is being conserved. No chains are snapping. Momentum is not being transfered from one body segment to another (IF SO PROVE IT.. this I want to see)
Originally Posted by bioengine
What do you know about human motion physics.
What do you know about moevement patterns, do you understand how movement patterns functions. Or how the human body want to move naturally.
do you understand this subject matter?
I know that the scientific disipline is called Kinesiology not "human motion physics". Although I have studied anatomy, physiology and human factors as it pertains to engineering I know that I am not passing myself off as a kinesiology expert attempting to sell videos and diagnostic lessons. You on the other hand are. What exactly are your qualifications bioengine?
Yes we know you once golfed well and but that hardly qualifies you as an expert on the subject matter does it? Such rationalization would suggest Tiger Woods is the best kinesiologist in the world..... I think not. I suspect everyone on this forum is as qualified to discuss these matters. My gripe is with the constant misuse of the vocabulary and the selling of snake oil though I admit even placebos can be effective... for a time.
Originally Posted by bioengine
Not sure why your going on about COAM i never mentioned it.
COAM... COM ... neither apply.
Last edited by no_mind_golfer : 08-10-2009 at 03:47 PM.
There is plenty of information in the National Library of Medicine(Pubmed) such as this from Sports Medicine 2005 NZ Patria A. Hume, Justin Keogh, and Duncan Reid
"Golf biomechanics applies the principles and technique of mechanics to the structure and function of the golfer in an effort to improve golf technique and performance. A common recommendation for technical correction is maintaining a single fixed center hub of rotation with a two-lever one-hinge moment arm to impart force on the ball. The primary and secondary spinal angles are important for conservation of angular momentum using the kinetic link principle to generate high club-head velocity. When the golfer wants to maximize the distance of their drives, relatively large ground reaction forces (GRF) need to be produced. However, during the backswing, a greater proportion of the GRF will be observed on the back foot, with transfer of the GRF on to the front foot during the downswing/acceleration phase. Rapidly stretching hip, trunk and upper limb muscles during the backswing, maximizing the X-factor early in the downswing, and uncocking the wrists when the lead arm is about 30 degrees below the horizontal will take advantage of the summation of force principle. This will help generate large angular velocity of the club head, and ultimately ball displacement. Physical conditioning will help to recruit the muscles in the correct sequence and to optimum effect. To maximize the accuracy of chipping and putting shots, the golfer should produce a lower grip on the club and a slower/shorter backswing. Consistent patterns of shoulder and wrist movements and temporal patterning result in successful chip shots. Qualitative and quantitative methods are used to biomechanically assess golf techniques. Two- and three-dimensional videography, force plate analysis and electromyography techniques have been employed. The common golf biomechanics principles necessary to understand golf technique are stability, Newton's laws of motion (inertia, acceleration, action reaction), lever arms, conservation of angular momentum, projectiles, the kinetic link principle and the stretch-shorten cycle. Biomechanics has a role in maximizing the distance and accuracy of all golf shots (swing and putting) by providing both qualitative and quantitative evidence of body angles, joint forces and muscle activity patterns. The quantitative biomechanical data needs to be interpreted by the biomechanist and translated into coaching points for golf professionals and coaches. An understanding of correct technique will help the sports medicine practitioner provide sound technical advice and should help reduce the risk of golfing injury." I am having my local medical library obtain the full text article for me. I have also found my Physical Therapist, Massage Therapist and Fitness Trainer have been helpful. This is great supplemental information to enhance Homer's devotees quest to master G.O.L.F. Sorry I can't get much meat out of Bio's comments.
That sounds too me exactly what Bio does, it's all there. Especially the reduce injury bit. I reckon Physical Therapists, Massage Therapists and Fitness Trainers deal with repairing injury, not avoiding them, unless they know how to swing a club with better movement patterns? Physio guys make a good living on tour dealing with Pro pain.
Homers devotees? Do you give out coupons?
Hey No_Mind, tough call saying it's snake oil when you haven't even checked it out? Guilty till proven innocent hey? The world is flat I say!
Judicious imitation, snake oil, sound like anti-buzz words?
This is nothing more than a TGM Pivot for a Straight Line Delivery Path.
Golf biomechanics applies the principles and technique of mechanics (Alignments and Physics) to the structure and function of the golfer in an effort to improve golf technique and performance. A common recommendation for technical correction is maintaining a single fixed center hub of rotation (Stationary Head) with a two-lever one-hinge moment arm (Primary and Secondary Levers with a Cocked Left Wrist) to impart force on the ball. The primary and secondary spinal angles (Waist bend and Tilt) are important for conservation of angular momentum using the kinetic link principle (Pivot controlled Hands) to generate high club-head velocity. When the golfer wants to maximize the distance of their drives, relatively large ground reaction forces (GRF) need to be produced (Swing from the Feet). However, during the backswing, a greater proportion of the GRF will be observed on the back foot (the Back Right Foot), with transfer of the GRF on to the front foot (front right foot) during the downswing/acceleration phase (Hey, what about the left Foot, it has important functions too). Rapidly stretching hip, trunk and upper limb muscles during the backswing, maximizing the X-factor early in the downswing, and uncocking the wrists when the lead arm is about 30 degrees below the horizontal (Please, hackers only. Better Golfers Hands will pass the line of sight to the ball at Release) will take advantage of the summation of force principle. This will help generate large angular velocity of the club head, and ultimately ball displacement (Faster Clubhead speeds make the ball go farther). Physical conditioning will help to recruit the muscles in the correct sequence and to optimum effect (Physical connditioning may help you swing faster). To maximize the accuracy of chipping and putting shots, the golfer should produce a lower grip on the club and a slower/shorter backswing. Consistent patterns of shoulder and wrist movements and temporal patterning result in successful chip shots (practice makes perfect). Qualitative and quantitative methods are used to biomechanically assess golf techniques (the guy with the longest drive has better technique). Two- and three-dimensional videography, force plate analysis and electromyography techniques have been employed (because they have no clue whats happening when they observe a Golfer). The common golf biomechanics principles necessary to understand golf technique are stability, Newton's laws of motion (inertia, acceleration, action reaction), lever arms, conservation of angular momentum, projectiles, the kinetic link principle and the stretch-shorten cycle. Biomechanics has a role in maximizing the distance and accuracy of all golf shots (swing and putting) by providing both qualitative and quantitative evidence of body angles, joint forces and muscle activity patterns (10% pay raise per year if BioMechanists Unionize). The quantitative biomechanical data needs to be interpreted by the biomechanist and translated into coaching points for golf professionals and coaches (not enough money teaching kids). An understanding of correct technique will help the sports medicine practitioner provide sound technical advice and should help reduce the risk of golfing injury. (Golfer says: “It hurts when I do this”, the Doctor replies: “then stop doing it”.)
the guy with the longest drive has better technique
because they have no clue whats happening when they observe a Golfer
not enough money teaching kids
10% pay raise per year if BioMechanists Unionize
Golfer says: “It hurts when I do this”, the Doctor replies: “then stop doing it”
So Daryl, does being a smart arse help your students get better?
I don't teach Golf. Never have, never will. I'm an "arse".
Quote:
the guy with the longest drive has better technique.
The Biomechanics study that I read, used the longest ball striker as the Model.
Quote:
because they have no clue whats happening when they observe a Golfer
They don't know what they're observing because they're not educated Golf Instructors.
Quote:
not enough money teaching kids
Why is it that when anyone thinks they have something new, that they're not required to prove it by taking a young golfer and making him a champion? Why do they go straight to the Champion and claim that "I can make you better"?
Quote:
10% pay raise per year if BioMechanists Unionize
Come on, that was funny.
Quote:
Golfer says: “It hurts when I do this”, the Doctor replies: “then stop doing it”
Man has been running for 10,000 years. If an injured Runner visits a Doctor, the Doctor invariably says, "Stop Running".
Again Conservation of Momentum does not apply... Data shows a golfer's muscles are active through out the swing. Nothing is being conserved. No chains are snapping. Momentum is not being transfered from one body segment to another (IF SO PROVE IT.. this I want to see)
I know that the scientific disipline is called Kinesiology not "human motion physics". Although I have studied anatomy, physiology and human factors as it pertains to engineering I know that I am not passing myself off as a kinesiology expert attempting to sell videos and diagnostic lessons. You on the other hand are. What exactly are your qualifications bioengine?
Yes we know you once golfed well and but that hardly qualifies you as an expert on the subject matter does it? Such rationalization would suggest Tiger Woods is the best kinesiologist in the world..... I think not. I suspect everyone on this forum is as qualified to discuss these matters. My gripe is with the constant misuse of the vocabulary and the selling of snake oil though I admit even placebos can be effective... for a time.
COAM... COM ... neither apply.
No Mind,
How about opening up you mind for a minute. At present you have a closed mind. Your going off your own belief system.
Your sadly mistaken if you think I'm here to sell videos etc.
You are way off the mark there.
Problem in golf is no likes sharing their information. I have admiration for Yoda cause he's only to happy to share his knowledge with everyone.
I'm in the same boat I want to share my knowledge with people for the better of the game. Not sell video's your sadly mistaken.
hmm energy can't be stored interesting, can you please enlighten everyone about eccentric-cocentric (Stretch-Shorten Cycle) works please.
I believe that with in this cycle they say elastic energy is stored. Quite interesting.
Can you enlighten us on the first law of thermodynamics U=Eh+Em+Ep,s
U= work ,
Eh = change in heat or thermal energy,
Em = Change in chemical energy
Es,p = Change in elastic energy
Your saying the muscles are always active, hmm interesting. Aren't also muscles accelerating an decelerating as well.
Can explain this phoenomena for us.
Angular momentum is conserved in a system where there is no net external torque, and its conservation helps explain many diverse phenomena. For example, the increase in rotational speed of a spinning figure skater as the skater's arms are contracted is a consequence of conservation of angular momentum.
Angular momentum applies in golf, actually in tennis, throwing and a ton of other sports, research was conduct by kinesiology and have written tons on research conducted and they all agree. Hmmm
Research done by our findings is not one man's belief. Years of research from Kinesiology, Neuromechanics, biomechanics has gone into our research. A team of researchers of 20 years.
So your saying researchers from the American sport institute is wrong are you saying biomotion is wrong as well. Very interesting
honestly, I personally don't care about the theory.
In our field you don't last long in the game if your theories are flawed and don't get results.
All we care about is how to train athletes how to create better movement patterns.
Our focus is training athletes to create the right movements through training. We train the body to create better movement patterns.
Results speak louder then words.
Last edited by bioengine : 08-11-2009 at 03:01 AM.
No Mind,
How about opening up you mind for a minute. At present you have a closed mind. Your going off your own belief system..
My mind is open. I'm listening ... What did you say your qualifications were? Have you been to a University? I subscribe to the beliefs systems I learned at the university (they are not mine) which are rooted in the pioneering work of such people as Issac Newton. There is nothing new here. He penned it all in the Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica in 1687.
Originally Posted by bioengine
Your sadly mistaken if you think I'm here to sell videos etc.
You are way off the mark there.
Problem in golf is no likes sharing their information. I have admiration for Yoda cause he's only to happy to share his knowledge with everyone.
I'm in the same boat I want to share my knowledge with people for the better of the game. Not sell video's your sadly mistaken.
hmm energy can't be stored interesting, can you please enlighten everyone about eccentric-cocentric (Stretch-Shorten Cycle) works please.
I believe that with in this cycle they say elastic energy is stored. Quite interesting..
There is no energy stored when muscles are stretched. Muscles contract... thats what they do. When muscles contract they apply forces to levers (the human skeleton) which cause movement. Thats all.
Originally Posted by bioengine
Can you enlighten us on the first law of thermodynamics U=Eh+Em+Ep,s
U= work ,
Eh = change in heat or thermal energy,
Em = Change in chemical energy
Es,p = Change in elastic energy
Your saying the muscles are always active, hmm interesting. Aren't also muscles accelerating an decelerating as well. .
Muscles contract (apply force) to levers... thats it! Thats what muscles do.
I would have thought you'd have questioned me on the third law instead... Thats the much more interesting one the says conversations like this one are destined to degenerate.
First law says energy is conserved in the SYSTEM. When a golf ball is compressed some energy converted (i.e. wasted) to heat and noise... that energy is forever lost and cannot be used to help propel it the golf ball. However that heat and that noise is STILL in the system... Energy is consevered.... IN THE SYSTEM (which includes golfer ball and surroundings) THAT my biofriend is what the first law says. Get it? But momentum is NOT energy. They are two entirely different concepts.
Originally Posted by bioengine
Can explain this phoenomena for us.
Angular momentum is conserved in a system where there is no net external torque, and its conservation helps explain many diverse phenomena. For example, the increase in rotational speed of a spinning figure skater as the skater's arms are contracted is a consequence of conservation of angular momentum.
Angular momentum applies in golf, actually in tennis, throwing and a ton of other sports, research was conduct by kinesiology and have written tons on research conducted and they all agree. Hmmm.
Sure Angular momentum "applies" in golf.... But Angular Momentum sure as heck is not CONSERVED in the golf swing (for the reasons I've already stated several times now). If angular momentum were being conserved in golf as a theoretical golfer spun about his/her theoretical spine axis then as the club moved away from the body.... THE ROTATION OF THE SYSTEM WOULD SLOW DOWN. COAM dictates that an Increase the moment of inertia must be accompanied by a rotational speed decrease. Everyone knows that does not happen. Everyone knows the club angular velocity speeds up as it releases and Nesbits data proves not everyones (probably darn few) hands slow down prior to impact. COAM like COM in describing the golf swing is a MYTH (one of many btw).
Originally Posted by bioengine
Research done by our findings is not one man's belief. Years of research from Kinesiology, Neuromechanics, biomechanics has gone into our research. A team of researchers of 20 years.
So your saying researchers from the American sport institute is wrong are you saying biomotion is wrong as well. Very interesting.
I'm saying what you have written in this thread is wrong.... Don't go trying to drag other's to your defense. That is a blatant logical fallacy (appeal to popularity)... in this case a popular misconception.
Originally Posted by bioengine
honestly, I personally don't care about the theory.
In our field you don't last long in the game if your theories are flawed and don't get results.
All we care about is how to train athletes how to create better movement patterns.
Our focus is training athletes to create the right movements through training. We train the body to create better movement patterns.
Results speak louder then words.
YOU SHOULD CARE ABOUT THEORY! Let me tell you a true story. There was once a project to which a young Engineering graduate was assigned. They had a pit of water about 60 feet deep that need to be drained so construction could begin.... The forman on the job had a lot of "practical" experience and ordered that a certain pump be used. The young engineer took one look at the pump and said it would not work. The forman was an arrogant man who thought he knew more that some young punk engineer fresh out of school with nothing but some "book learnin". In the end the engineer was proven right... Even though it was a very big pump it did not work. do you know why? Anybody? "Theory" tells us why.
Bio.... Your words sound nice ... very benevolent... But I believe Ayn Rand has you pegged... you're in it for selfish purposes... All business' are in it to make money. Again... I'm listening... WHERE IS THE BEEF?
Hybrid Mode
