I'm worried that this thread is going to end in an abyss of misunderstanding by introducing the "CP Release".
[list=1][*]The term "CP Release" was coined by Mac O'Grady.[*]It was invented out of a couple of necessities, but foremost, I think it stems from thinking that TGM "Passive Right Arm" means a "Limp and inactive Right Forearm". Which isn't true.
Great post, Daryl. I think a lot of the CP arguments against TGM is based on a biased TGM interpretation and not necessarily valid for TGM in general.
I agree with most of what you say here and you do a fine job at translating it to TGM terms.
But I don't agree the with the flavor you add to Hogan's stroke. The compensation part.
There are a lot of ways to release the club. One method is to launch the hands from the shoulder (the Accumulator #4 blast-off) and later fire the primary lever from the hands. A sort of biokinetic chain reaction with a rapid overtaking by the lagging component over the leading component. And a very sequenced way of striking the ball. And finished off with a very outspoken finish swivel. Another way is to keep the hands and pivot on the same angular speed and basically release the club with and from the pivot. The relationship between the pivot and the hands are then much more simultaneous and less sequenced than when you fire Accumulator #4 early.
In real worlds strokes we're probably talking shades of grey here and not black and white. But the difference between Hogan and VJ Sing isn't small in that regard.
I don't believe that any good golf stroke has a Right Shoulder location that thrusts the Right Hand on plane. They all need to thrust under plane to keep the Hand on plane.
First of all, on all videos I've seen the Right Shoulder is always in the process of turning over the hand path and not in the process of tracing the hand path. Second, a right shoulder that thrusts on plane plus a club that is thrown out due to CF plus arms that are attached to the pivot above the geometrical swing center will move the hands and the clubhead above the plane. Unless you also pull your hands towards the body to fight the CF that the club impose on your hands.
I believe that all good strokes have a thrust line from the Right Shoulder through the Right Hand that support the required hand path, included CF flyaway prevention. At least for a while. There may be ABS type motorized hinges, torquing wrists and all kinds of active hands and arms and wrists activities going on that isn't visible on the surface but still make a difference. But the push from the shoulder through PP #1 and PP#3 is just too important to be misaligned regardless of stroke pattern.
In the first type of release - the sequenced action - the shoulder to hand relationship will become gradually more outwards and forward as the arms are blast off the chest and move out from the pivot.
In the second type - where you don't blast the Left Arm off the chest your thrust from the Right Shoulder will be more downward as the hands get more underneath the shoulder. The covering shoulder as Bucket put it. The line of thrust will become more vertical and more supporting of a CP hand path - a "swing left" hand path if you wish. It will prevent the Hands from flying out.
IMO, the "swinging left" pattern has a lot to do with Accumulator #4 application and timing.
I agree that the fade partly explains what we see in Hogan's stroke, but it doesn't explane the difference between Hogan and Monty - or Freddie, just to mention a couple of great golfer that could fade the ball as good as anyone with a very different procedure from Hogan's.
Well, here we go. Thank you Fladan for your impressive examination of CP and CF Release.
My comments about the CP Release came from an interview between Ralph Perez of Gothom Golf Blog and John "Lagpressure" Erikson on January 1, 2011 just a few days ago. During the interview, "Lagpressure" credited O'Grady with coining the Term CP Release. However, my explanation of CP is taken from the Interview which reflects the way "Lagpressure" uses the Terms and the intent of the procedures. If anyone hasn't viewed the interview, then do so if you'd like at http://www.gothamgolfblog.com. If I remember correctly, go to minute 35:30 in Part one and when viewing Part 2, begin at the beginning. This should lead you directly to the issue at hand because he explains CP Release as used by Himself and in his Coaching.
I don't have a problem understanding John Eriksons point of view or the Terms as he uses them and I don't disagree with what he's trying to do with the procedure. My comments stem from people thinking that the Right Forearm is passive Limpy in TGM and as soon as someone begins Driving the Forearm, they think that they've discovered something new. My comments about the CP procedure as used and taught by "Lagpressure" being a "compensation" are correct from a TGM point of view. The Right Forearm must return to the Angle of Approach and if you don't, then going Left with your shoulder turn is a "real" solution.
John Erikson had a great interview and talked a lot about his Tour Experience and it's always interesting and fun to listen to and I would recommend it to everyone.
The key point with regard to other posts is that both motions are body and/or left arm driven - the right arm is not flimsy, but does not play a major role in either swing model.
Are you talking about the right forearm being on the inclined plane at impact here?
Is what you mean by the RF return to the right angle of approach?
At Impact Fix, the Primary Lever is In line with a Flat and Level Left Wrist and the Right Forearm Wedge is "Intact" with a Level and Bent Right Wrist and the "Forearm" is Against the underside of the Plane while the #3 PP is On-Plane tracing the Plane Line. The Right Forearm while against the Plane is Angled Down, Forward and Outward. That's the Forearm Angle of Approach. It's not just the Angle, but it's the Angle of the Right Forearm when the Wedges are Intact, especially the Right Forearm Flying Wedge.
As I have discussed with Yoda, I do think Mac's CF and CP models reflect swinging and hitting patterns, but in Mac's terms.
The one point of contention I had with Mac is both swing models are from the same top of backswing position - it is a long way to CP motion from an "arc of approach" top of swing position (as compared to "angle of approach". Also, in neither case is the right forearm driving during the downswing/release.
This discussion is not about Mac; but I think his work is very valuable and as all of us should, he and we, are trying to continue Homer's work.
I haven't watched Mr. Erickson's discussion but I will definitely do so. I'm sure his insights will be valuable to us all. Thanks for the time.
Lynn asked me to reply to the general discussion regarding CP (centripetal force)and CF (centrifugal force) motions per Mac O'Grady. Here goes:
By way of explanation, I "managed" Mac's schools for six and half years (2001 - 2008 ). I attended over 30 schools and was part of the teaching team for these schools. I was also, at the time, one of two people allowed to use the MORAD logo for my teaching.
CF motion uses a lateral shift of the hips beginning the downswing, with the left arm angled about 20 degrees inside to the target line at the point the left arm is parallel to the ground (know as Position 5). The right elbow moves toward the right hip. Then the right arm begins to straighten when the club is parallel to the ground (P6). The hips "elevate" to impact. Flight of the ball is predominantly a push to push/fade, although any flight is possible via club face position. Generally, it is always a higher flight than a CP motion.
A CP motion is an outward force - the rotation of the left shoulder is more level to the ground - horizontal (Mac believes the left shoulder position is monitored, not the right shoulder). The hands are brought predominantly outward, rather than moving downward, and the left arm is parallel to the target line at P5 (see above). This rotational motion is continued through impact. This motion produces a lower trajectory, and a left to right ball flight (generally).
I can tell you that a CP motion is a body driven motion - very little to no shifting of the hips, and a lower finish vs. the CF finish.
The key point with regard to other posts is that both motions are body and/or left arm driven - the right arm is not flimsy, but does not play a major role in either swing model.
At least according to Mac....
Dan,
Thanks so much for this great post and your follow-up above. Your years of experience with Mac is an invaluable resource, especially now when combined with your knowledge of The Golfing Machine.
I have had many students -- amateur and professional -- but none more dedicated to the pursuit of learning and mastery of the teaching craft. It has been my pleasure and privilege to watch your dedicated pursuit over the past 2 1/2 years. Impressive.
And I know you've been "eating your own cooking": Those mid-sixties scores you've been posting lately are getting b-o-r-i-n-g! I think you're getting it!
Proud to have you aboard, Dan, as my friend, student, counselor, and Lynn Blake Certified Senior Instructor. Thanks again for your many contributions to LBG and the benchmark of professionalism you set for us all.
As I have discussed with Yoda, I do think Mac's CF and CP models
reflect swinging and hitting patterns, but in Mac's terms.
The one point of contention I had with Mac is both swing models are from the same top of backswing position - it is a long way to CP motion from an "arc of approach" top of swing position (as compared to "angle of approach". Also, in neither case is the right forearm driving during the downswing/release.
This discussion is not about Mac; but I think his work is very
valuable and as all of us should, he and we, are trying to continue Homer's work.
I haven't watched Mr. Erickson's discussion but I will definitely do so. I'm sure his insights will be valuable to us all. Thanks for the time.
Glad you're here fladan, very interesting stuff.
Nice to hear these things from someone who got it first hand (and understood it).......sorta like talking about all things Homer with Lynn. No broken telephone so to speak.
During one of my first breakfasts with Lynn, I believe at the Cracker Barrel in Marieta....I asked him about all these other definitions of TGM things I was reading here and there. Lynn paused then made a motion as if to pull an I.V. out of his forearm arm and then held it to my arm, looked me right in the eye and said " its a mainline....from Homer to me and now to you. What you are getting is not second hand or third, its first hand".
That moment kinda stuck with me, you might say. That was a great day all around actually, in many ways.
[*]First: The "CP Release" is essentially, Driving the Right Forearm to the Correct On-Plane Angle of Approach for Impact and keeping the Right Forearm Wedge ( or only the Right Forearm ) moving On-Plane at least until both Arms are straight. Because of "Transfer Power" from the Pivot to the Right Forearm, wherever the Right Forearm goes, the Clubhead will follow. [*]Second: (Issue - Problem) If the Left Arm is held against the Chest (Hogan) and not allowed to Swing Freely during the Impact and Follow-through Intervals, the Right Forearm cannot quite reach nor remain on the correct TGM Angle of Approach.
First of all, the RFFW is only on plane for an instance. It is under plane back and down, at plane through impact and then over plane.
A guy that goes under the name Slicefixer over at golfwrx has a 9-3 drill where the students are required to hold the RFFW all the way into the finish. This may be an old drill but it was new to me. It takes a specific coordination between hands and pivot to get there. When you finish, the hands are above and in front of your left hip and the shaft points straight up in the sky.
I tried this drill today. I didn't get all the way but I was close. Certainly close enough to be convinced that you can "swing left" without compromiising RFFW.
That 9-3 drill was btw a great drill no matter how you want to strike the ball. I could even do a TGM TSP stroke afterwards.
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