If I recall it right, Mehlhorn had an advice/tips where you could push out with right hand and pull in with left hand during the swing. I have the book somewhere.
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Golf is an impossible game with impossible tools - Winston Churchill
In the World of TGM, Zone 2 is the application of mechanical advantage to increase Pivot Speed. The Straightening of the "Triangle" by Left Arm or Right Arm is mechanical advantage. The #2 Accumulator is also mechanical advantage whether it's passive or active, using CF or Power Package Thrust respectively. So, moving from bent to straight IS(part of) the mechanical advantage. It doesn't matter if you push or pull. That's only the "How". But the Pivot supplies all of the Power.
TGM is very much about the Pivot Supplying all of the Power (in Pivot Strokes). Somewhere it says that the arms should not substitute for the pivot.
Don't let me mislead you. The Arms are Power, but only in the sense that the Power comes from a "Pulley" or "Inclined Plane" or "Screw" or "Lever".
The Pivot is direct energy, stored by the Accumulators as Potential energy and released into Clubhead Kinetic Energy.
Anyway, I think I got most of that right. Pushing and Pulling is the "How" of Mechanical Advantage. Push and Pull is "How" the Accumulators are released. If three Accumulators aren't adding enough advantage, use four. That means you can store potential Power in 4 places, then increase or decrease their release overlap to refine.
Homer Kelley isn't saying that that's the way everybody gets the job done but he is saying that that's the way everybody "should" get the job done.
Mechanical Advantage is the factor by which a mechanism multiplies the force applied to it.
This is just a personal note from me. It's unfortunate that TGM seems so focused on pulling and pushing. Homer gave everything equal emphasis but because component variations need to be chosen in light of Hitting or Swinging, it seems to have gotten a lot of "Press" time.
Pushing and pulling is rudimentary. Absorb Zone 1,2 and 3 and keep their identities separate. The magic, mystery, answers, are not found in Hitting vs Swinging.
great post Daryl (another keeper for my sheet, thankyou)
Last edited by tim chapman : 11-27-2010 at 07:00 AM.
COMMENTARY- Perhaps the subject should not be approached
I start with 2 notes:
This is all in fun, I do not mean to tease or annoy anyone.
I Remind everyone that, as I opened before, ”Perhaps the subject should not be approached”.
O.B. said:
Is there something outside of pushing and pulling? Can you longitudinal and radial at the same time? Can you walk in a circle and a straight line at the same time?
Ill ask Susan or John even, when Im ten feet tall............
This Alice in Wonderland quotation is often cited by the courts regarding the exactitude of the construction of language.
An example is contained within TVA v. Hill , 437 U.S. 153 [Footnote 18}
Zap! You are now 14 feet tall.
City said.
Now, "Alice" and her friends are works of fiction. I really like fiction but only as it furthers the understanding of facts.
I covered that above
Alice and HD are arguing about something a lot less grounded than our biomechanical frame. You might be a reader of some of the literary dust-ups in England or France over the use of commas or what constitutes a "real" word. Good fun! And in your quote, as I understand it, HD is actually backing itself into Alice's point. Anyway, good fun, great book!
I will cover that at the end of this
I would think that Ernest Jones would be an interesting study regarding this idea. Lag the penknife back and through but thrusting for him was tough, I bet.
By golly he would.
Daryl said: With his customary insight
Pushing and pulling is rudimentary. Absorb Zone 1,2 and 3 and keep their identities separate. The magic, mystery, answers, are not found in Hitting vs Swinging.
---------------------------------------------------
I implore myself to finish the Humpty Dumpty Quotation, this time with attribution, as a means to reiterate my lead comment.
"Impenetrability! That's what I say!"
"Would you tell me, please," said Alice "what that means?"
"Now you talk like a reasonable child," said Humpty Dumpty, looking very much pleased. "I meant by 'impenetrability' that we've had enough of that subject, and it would be just as well if you'd mention what you mean to do next, as I suppose you don't mean to stop here all the rest of your life."
"That's a great deal to make one word mean," Alice said in a thoughtful tone.
"When I make a word do a lot of work like that," said Humpty Dumpty, "I always pay it extra."
—Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass, 1872
The Bear
Last edited by HungryBear : 11-27-2010 at 01:17 PM.
Now, I have grasped the fact that this man is using a Swing with two shifts. But can we define a Swing that is continued with one arm? I am a fan of Moe Norman as are many of you. I have noted his closed stance and with my shorter left leg, and a sharply closed and wide stance, my Pivot, FLW and FBRW (Frozen, not stirred), stays nicely on Plane which is so cool!
For a war veteran with an injury (which I am not), or for an older person, or for a really(physically) thick person (excluding my mental thickness), could this extreme form of a swing with a short backswing and a one-armed/two armed follow through offer a serious advantage? What about hitting my forehead with a sledgehammer and saying the alphabet backwards. LMAO!
Remember, we are just spitballing in the back of the room here with empty bic pens!
ICT
__________________
HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
Last edited by innercityteacher : 11-27-2010 at 02:06 PM.
Oops! Sorry Bear, I thought you'd let the "thrower" category go.
Originally Posted by HungryBear
Maybe?
No #4, No #1 before release
Left shoulder leverage?
Yank it through??
HB
I'll post my thing under a new thread.
ICT
__________________
HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
It seems like a closed setup really gives me a lot of time to swit!
Originally Posted by Daryl
"The Hammer" // At first I thought he was Hitting because of that weird backswing and Single Wrist Action. But then.....
His real Secret: 10-18-C #1, Horizontal Hinge Paddle-wheel Motion on the TSP. Swinger.
Maybe his strength reduces Impact Deceleration? Although he Spins fast.
Thanks Bear, although you needn't have done that. We are in for a painful couple of months of winter so we might as well be friendly.
Anywhoo...my clubs make the ball go further when I Pivot and keep my stuff frozen. What I was shocked to find was how much time I seem to have with a closed stance to decide what to do. It sort of amps up my CF. maybe balancing the front shortness? Who knows? But if the pros used to use a closed stance and they were way better than me...
Should that be how lesser physically skilled people start out? Doesn't that make the Plane much more approachable, do-able and therefore make a more effective golfer?
Since we are spitballing again, and since Stack and Tilt is our 2nd cousin sortof, and we are on the subject of easier golfing effectiveness by way of Bear's thread (I think that's what Bear was going for), has any else noticed that is is much easier to SWIT with S& T?
When I straighten my back leg and tilt on my front (one long imbalanced downhill slide), It feels like straightening my front leg and sliding my hip is so easy and that my right arm just wants to beat the crud out of the ball. It is almost automatic.
Anyway...I'm sure there is a bio-mechanical explanation for all this stuff. I'm guessing my left plastic hip just rolls out of the way in a closed stance and it give my back shoulder unrestricted permission to slide through the ground.
ICT
__________________
HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
I have a difficult time picturing how a person with two hands couldn't pull and push simultaneously.
Why couldn't they?
Works well for turning shopping carts.
Can the same hand push and pull? I don't see how.
Can one hand push and and hand pull? I don't see why not.
Is it a good thing? Wish I knew.
Seems like, in theory, it would be worth investigating.
You can push and pull at the same time BUT there are implications. The implications dependent upon what point you are at in the swing. For instance if you were in start down, pushing at the #1 is radial and will destroy the pullings longitudinal....so they are at cross purposes. Mutually exclusive in terms of longitudinal and radial. Longitudinal delaying release , radial being release.
Now take pulling radially and pushing radially say in a putting stroke or in the case of a push/pull initiated during the radial acceleration portion of a full stroke ........You can do this as well. This time with no disruption of longitudinal because it assumed to be not present in the first place, BUT here you are subject to the fact that the right arm push and the left arm pull no not have the same directional vectors to their respective forces. Their forces are not aligned , not pointing in the same exact direction. The arms themselves attach to the body at different places , opposite shoulders and therefor their associated movements are not identical nor is the direction of the force they apply. Scattered vectors being a disruption to Total Compression 2-C. Two horses bridled to a cart but pointing in different directions. The extent to which you employ them together at the same time is the extent to which you will have compensate for the inherent divergence in their vectors. This maybe the #1 reason for my improved putting , that and Hinge Action. Although I go back and forth between pulling it back with the right and then pulling it through with the left or pushing it through with the right or rocking the shoulders it through all with one accumulator and Angled Hinge Action. Ah component separation , thank you Lynn. But I digress.
Homer's prescription: Pull (swing) or Push (hit) or Pull then Push (four b) but dont push and pull at the same time , its especially damaging in Startdown , less so during radial acceleration but still incredibly disruptive given the critical nature of that stage....impact, putting etc.
Even on the way back in the backswing HOmer tried to separate Pulling and Pushing. The Push of the shoulder turn takeaway, which is inept at getting the club UP (in Total Motion) and instead tends to take it IN too much , under plane, ........gives way to a Right Forearm Takeaway or "Pick up" which is a definite Pull. So Swinger and Hitter alike both Pull on the way back, be it a "swing back" or a "carry back". That isnt to say you cant employ a Shoulder Turn takeaway.............. Bobby Clampett , Plummer and B, Mac even maybe ........ But Homer preferred a Pull there. Like Seve employed. Yes Seve......its in his book. The Paderno of his youth was safely removed from the golf digests of the 60's and early 70's.
Push or Pull or Pull then Push but dont push and pull at the same time if you want to be straight as well as powerful.
Im not saying you cant Throw it. I do. To my mind you can actively " throw" a push or a pull. Hit or Right Arm Swing. The "throw" also seems to lie within the distinction of the position of the right elbow to me.......Push vs Punch. Push basic (short shots only) vs Right Arm throw, fanning and bending. I Right Arm Throw, right after I Throw my Right s
Shoulder. Just as I was taught to do......at the Swamp and Cuscowilla.
In fact Id go so far as to say that if anyone here is trying to Hit, full shots, total motion, with an inline "punching", shot putting, Push Basic motion ............. STOP. Ralph demonstrates his definition of a Hit as being inline push with a sort of knock down type abbreviated follow through. Thats a different fish......... a different argument ..........a knock down argument per Humpty Dumpty.
I found Lynn's explanation of this in our Forum under "closed stance."
Originally Posted by Daryl
"The Hammer" // At first I thought he was Hitting because of that weird backswing and Single Wrist Action. But then.....
His real Secret: 10-18-C #1, Horizontal Hinge Paddle-wheel Motion on the TSP. Swinger.
Maybe his strength reduces Impact Deceleration? Although he Spins fast.
Our "search" function is amazing!
QUOTE # 1
Hogan's stance
I noticed Hogan had a closed stance. What I couldn't tell was how he aligned his shoulders to the target line.
I hit some balls on the range with a similar stance and actually played a round of golf that way today. I kept my shoulders square, but pulled the right foot back similar to what he does in this video.
Having the right foot back seemed to make it really easy to take the club back on an inside and flat plane....which seems to feel most natural to me. To my surprise, I did not hit a bunch of hooks, in fact I think I only hit one hook and it was purely from flipping my hands at the bottom.
I'm just curious about the geometric reasons for why this set-up produced a ton of good shots for me today. I don't think I was making any compensations....just taking it back insided and flat and trying to come down on the same plane.
#28
03-12-2005, 08:44 PM
QUOTE # 2
Martee
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Lenoir, NC
Posts: 570
Re: Hogan's stance
Originally Posted by Trigolt
I noticed Hogan had a closed stance. What I couldn't tell was how he aligned his shoulders to the target line.
I hit some balls on the range with a similar stance and actually played a round of golf that way today. I kept my shoulders square, but pulled the right foot back similar to what he does in this video.
Having the right foot back seemed to make it really easy to take the club back on an inside and flat plane....which seems to feel most natural to me. To my surprise, I did not hit a bunch of hooks, in fact I think I only hit one hook and it was purely from flipping my hands at the bottom.
I'm just curious about the geometric reasons for why this set-up produced a ton of good shots for me today. I don't think I was making any compensations....just taking it back insided and flat and trying to come down on the same plane.
Stance Line does not effect Plane or Target Line. (2-J-2)
__________________
Good Golfing
Martee
#29
03-12-2005, 08:50 PM
QUOTE # 3
Yoda
Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Posts: 8,599
The Closed Stance And The Right Hip / Right Elbow Conflict
Originally Posted by Trigolt
I noticed Hogan had a closed stance. I'm just curious about the geometric reasons for why this set-up produced a ton of good shots for me today. I don't think I was making any compensations....just taking it back insided and flat and trying to come down on the same plane.
Simply put, the Closed Stance with its automatic Short Pivot (10-12-B) produces a free Backstroke Turn (albeit with a restricted Follow-Through). This makes it easier to Clear the Right Hip in the Backstroke.
Failure to Clear the Right Hip during Start Up produces a Right Elbow-Right Hip conflict and is a problem epidemic in the Golf World. The Hands resolve this conflict without fanfare simply by going around the Hip. Unfortunately, that means you are now above Plane and must re-route the Club at some point to return correctly to the Ball. Most offenders never make it.
Hence, Homer included 'Clear Right Hip' as an important checkpoint in his Mechanical Checklist For All Strokes (12-3 #13).
Yoda
END OF 3 QUOTES AND MY CONCLUSION
So then, as you have pointed out to me several times Daryl (and thanks, again) my sense of the ease of staying on plane with a closed stance is not imagined and due to a solid bio-mechanical reason. The "Hammer Man" must have hit himself in the head with a yellow book and a hammer several times! And, for older and or newer golf students and women, an easier, effective swing might include Standard Address with closed stance, FLW,FBRW, EA, RFT...
ICT
__________________
HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
Last edited by innercityteacher : 11-28-2010 at 12:26 AM.
Cutting and Pasting Posts -- A Necessary Skill For 'Cutters and Pasters'
Okay, guys, there's been a lot of 'cutting and pasting' lately, and we gotta get better at this. I'm seeing my name (and others) all mixed up with posts from the original thread and also the current thread. See the immediately preceding post. Unless care is taken here, posts that were intended to illuminate only confuse.
Sometimes I have the time to right the ship and do. Other times, I just leave it be and roll on, knowing that it could have been made better. To that end, I'm asking Bambam to put up a 'how to' sticky on the procedure required to 'cut and paste' the posts of others.
But can we define a Swing that is continued with one arm? I am a fan of Moe Norman as are many of you. I have noted his closed stance and with my shorter left leg, and a sharply closed and wide stance, my Pivot, FLW and FBRW (Frozen, not stirred), stays nicely on Plane which is so cool! 
Linear Mode
