Is this what you believe Eldrick is doing or trying to do? I don't see evidence of this....shoulders closed....left palm still karate chop? Elbow bordering on perverted pitch? How can #3 kick in at transition given the position he's in at delivery?
Start pa3 AFTER start down/transition, not transition. Tiger has a stronger grip, so an already releasing pa3 will look like that karate chop at delivery.
Plus, I believe he's still delaying it a bit to preserve "his" pa3 angle. If he will increase that pa3 angle, he wouldn't have the need for that delay and be able to release it fully right after transition. For his height, he will look unusual and funky as he has to really bend those knees and hips to allow the more pa3 angle.
This is a pretty astute question...you've essentially described the difference between Swinging and Hitting....
BUT keep in mind....the WHEN you fire/Trigger #2 (your release) is up to you the golfer...I don't think OB or B.O. or whatever his name is was suggesting that you throw immediately from the top (you can)....just that you throw sometime...when is your choice....
It's Swinging...it's SEQUENCED....#2 uncocking starts FIRST in the sequence....then #3....that's Swinging....
your second question .... why not let #3 go....well heck yeah...why not...then you'd be HITTING....you'd be releasing #3 AND #2 SIMULTANEOUSLY....
the BEAUTY of the SYSTEM....HOMER KNEW IT....the other thing he knew was THE IMPORTANCE OF RIGHT ARM PARTICIPATION.....NOT JUST THAT IT PARTICIPATES....BUT HOW IT PARTICIPATES....IT SUPPORTS THE LOADING....SUPPORTS THE LEVER ASSEMBLY BEING LOADED...
HITTING FOREARM
SWINGING FOREARM
Hello Mr. Bucket,
Would it be possible to be a HITTER (pa3 and pa2 rekeased at same time) using all left arm, with pa1 releasing only at delivery phase as an ADD-ON and is completely optional. In the golfer's mind/intent, it would be just pa3. I know pa2 will be released as well, but that golfer is not thinking about pa2 at all. In fact, he is consciously avoiding too much release of it beyond a "level" left wrist.
So, it's all pivot and left arm releasing the pa3 (aka supination Mr. Hogan made famous) right after transition with a huge pa3 angle. I "feel" it's swinging, not hitting, mainly because it uses the left side and the pivot.
IMO, you can't release #3 before #2 and still comply with the plane. I think the first test of any golf swing discussion is whether it fits with the Imperatives.
Kevin
I meant more of what bucket pointed out, pa3 and pa2 simultaneously, though I don't think it's necessary to think about the pa2. As I said, I think efforts should be avoided that will "encourage" pa2 to release because IMO that will make you lose my pet pa3 angle beyond level.
Re plane, would what you said still apply if after transition you get down to elbow plane or, as pointed out by bucket in another thread, you get down to the plane you choose consistent with or appropriate with the pa3 angle you have?
I meant more of what bucket pointed out, pa3 and pa2 simultaneously, though I don't think it's necessary to think about the pa2. As I said, I think efforts should be avoided that will "encourage" pa2 to release because IMO that will make you lose my pet pa3 angle beyond level.
Re plane, would what you said still apply if after transition you get down to elbow plane or, as pointed out by bucket in another thread, you get down to the plane you choose consistent with or appropriate with the pa3 angle you have?
Hi Brian,
Many planes are available along with many release types. From your post, I was just envisioning #3 kicking out from the top over the plane with no chance of recovery. I think Homer emphasized 4-1-2-3 for a reason... Brian, please understand I am learning too. I'm gaining a much better grasp of what Homer is looking for, but have a long way to go as far as intelligently discussing advanced application. I'm also very interested in hitting procedures right now, and looking at everything through those eyes.
Kevin
__________________
I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
I know definition of "level". What I mean in there is that at "level", the left arm-shaft angle must still be huge. I want a still substantial angle despite it being slightly unc0cked already. I want it level at impact, so at impact, I still want the pa3 angle as angled as possible. But yeah, it's partially unc0cked, as a necessity of maintaining huge pa3 angle as possible.
In order to get this "huge" PA3 angle, are you holding the club at the base of the little finger of the left hand, instead of placing the butt of the club up under the heel pad?
OB, why would you want to fire pa2 prior to start releasing pa3? Why do you want to lose the lag early? Why not full release of pa3 from start down, with pa2 automatically firing at release phase? This way you maximize accuracy, and have essentially same power?
What the Colon Saunders said there.... and
Research Homers Lag Pressure which relates to Acceleration and Mass. It is not the same as common golf speak's "lag " or left wrist cock. One is a pressure measured in psi the other is an angle measured in degrees.
#3 can not precede #2. They can go at the same time however or #2 can go first. It relates to the physics of Hitting vs Swinging. If you thrust on the aft of the shaft against #1pp you will roll #3 yes and #2 will get thrown out in the process with some help from the direction of thrust and the pull of CF. Simultaneous Release. No way around it either. Swingers can with their left hand turned to plane throwout #2 down plane however with the #3 firing later . Sequenced. These are different applications of the wooden golfers flail that Lynn and Homer used for demonstrative purposes. The golfers flail being different than the farmers flail in that no horizontal left hand motion is allowed, possible given its construction.
To undo #2 angle is to accelerate the club head . Homer called it Velocity Power. Makes sense to me that power and velocity are good things to apply to the ball so with that in mind why do we try to hang on to it? Delayed Release of #2 should have no "hanging on to it". Wouldn't do that with a hammer when striking a nail. Hammer the thing hard. Its not how hard you hang on to it but how hard you uncock it (later being better of course, smaller pulley wheel )
This is non automatic (left wrist throw) swinger type thinking. The golfers flail for the swinger. Uncock hard towards the plane line and then let it roll over . Uncock then roll. Sequenced or as MJ points overlapped to some degree.
PS don't try the hard hammering thing without a roll at the bottom .... a hard left wrist throw with a hold off can hurt your left wrist... .
Whip, I appreciate your response and am impressed with your confidence. Im not even going to get into the you guarantee you could make the best players ever better by not letting their head move thing, but I do want to clarify a couple of things...
(1)on the hip slide/ head dip: I should have specified that I was referring to this in the context of Tiger Woods (the man who is dooming golfdom from a head dip). What I meant was that under the tutelage of Sean Foley, where he's getting 90% of the weight left, the back shoulder IS NOT going "down plane", and low point (left shoulder) IS NOT returning to where it started, but rather will move forward (as many many many do), that it will be impossible for his head not to go down. The "totally" to your left leg is the part I should have bolded I guess. I have zero interest in trying to call Homer wrong. TGM is the groundwork for all I have done and learned and built upon, and I think it is the most complete instructional golf book ever written. If I have different views on this or that will never change that. To your totally disagreeing and try it for yourself idea, believe it or not I have. The amount of weight shift is the key ingredient though. With a centered head, centered pivot, right shoulder moving down plane, and left shoulder returning to a similar location, as Mr. Kelley described, of course it is possible. (I know cause I tried it). Mr.Kelley was a brilliant man. I also don't remember him ever guaranteeing he could make the best players in the world better or saying you HAD to do this or that as the only way..... Brilliant man. My comments on the head dip were meant to be under the Foley umbrella. I have found however, that for me personally, I learn alot more from studying the greatest players in the world by what they actually do. And why it works. Regardless of if it goes against someones suggestions or breaks a theory or two. It is always easy to say they would be better if they didn't do this or that......there's just no evidence of whether or not that's the case, especially as a rule of law. Seems way more beneficial to learn from what they actually did. There have been tons of players improved by instruction, and there have been double that many ruined. Sometimes an off the cuff conclusion about a broken rule is more than meets the eye. As you said, sometimes positions are unintentional .......and sometimes preparatory and subconscious, and other times manipulations. I've never said that I teach players to squat and jump, or encourage it. Foley, who I was referencing through Tiger, does. And sometimes its a little more complicated than "don't do that". Theory is great and I love it, but you can also learn from what's actually happening ...... even if you don't like it or it doesn't fit your mold. So Whip, please forgive my ambiguity regarding the head dip; you are absolutely correct that you can slide your hips to the left and keep your head centered without a bob........just only to a certain extent of a weight shift, with a certain shoulder plane, and tracing a certain line. I am always happy to explain my opinions if they are ones that I post, but would rather not be pinned against one of my idols as an instructor and researcher with only pieces of the story. (Mr.Kelley used everything he could get his hands on or that was available to him to cultivate his theory and ideas, and never called it a done deal. I think he would have his followers do the same. To cite him as an inspiration and idol, and to try to continue to learn and build from the wealth of information he gifted us is how I would assume he would be the most honored. I hope nothing I ever do or say gives any impression otherwise.)
jtill, well that makes sense. my only concern was making sure that golfers aren't reading something like "you cant keep your head still its impossible" on a golfing machine forum. I think it's important though to not give the impression that this stuff is just theory, because its been proven by law. I had a conversation with a pro trying to tell me that the golfing machine "theories" all go out the window when you get on the course, no they don't. The information outlined in the golfing machine is based on law. It is always with you, always against you, major winner or duffer, on the range, on the course, or in a classroom these laws, not just 'theories' are ever present.
In order to get this "huge" PA3 angle, are you holding the club at the base of the little finger of the left hand, instead of placing the butt of the club up under the heel pad?
Butt of grip/club under the heel pad. However, to to have as acute as possible pa3 angle, the other end of the grip I pull it up more (nearer the wrist) towards the palm as possible where the index finger can still hold on to it tight (it's actually on the palm already, NOT on the index finger; it's actually on the callus directly behind the big knuckle of index finger). So it's really as across my palm/hand/arm as possible without sacrificing stabilization of the grip. And to further ensure the acute pa3 angle as possible DURING the swing, especially when pa2 kicks in, I really HOOK my right little finger over the knuckle of my left index finger. I find that when the pa2 releases, the pa2 momentum/inertia would always make my left wrist unc0ck more than "level" state. My solution, in addition to keeping the left wrist flat or slightly bowed, is to also REALLY hook the right pinky over the knuckle of index finger. I find that concentrating on this, to my surprise, is more effective than concentrating on a bent right wrist and pp1. And yeah, I also concentrate on pp2 (to achieve the flat left wrist), but not just the last 3 fingers, I also include the index/1st finger; it prevents unc0cking beyond level. I think this is the main advantage of the overlapping grip, you can use all the fingers of left hand, you need all for that delivery line roll, pa3-based release, right?
Last edited by brianid : 12-23-2011 at 08:03 PM.
Reason: Revised word "being" to "behind"
Research Homers Lag Pressure which relates to Acceleration and Mass. It is not the same as common golf speak's "lag " or left wrist cock. One is a pressure measured in psi the other is an angle measured in degrees.
#3 can not precede #2. They can go at the same time however or #2 can go first. It relates to the physics of Hitting vs Swinging. If you thrust on the aft of the shaft against #1pp you will roll #3 yes and #2 will get thrown out in the process with some help from the direction of thrust and the pull of CF. Simultaneous Release. No way around it either. Swingers can with their left hand turned to plane throwout #2 down plane however with the #3 firing later . Sequenced. These are different applications of the wooden golfers flail that Lynn and Homer used for demonstrative purposes. The golfers flail being different than the farmers flail in that no horizontal left hand motion is allowed, possible given its construction.
To undo #2 angle is to accelerate the club head . Homer called it Velocity Power. Makes sense to me that power and velocity are good things to apply to the ball so with that in mind why do we try to hang on to it? Delayed Release of #2 should have no "hanging on to it". Wouldn't do that with a hammer when striking a nail. Hammer the thing hard. Its not how hard you hang on to it but how hard you uncock it (later being better of course, smaller pulley wheel )
This is non automatic (left wrist throw) swinger type thinking. The golfers flail for the swinger. Uncock hard towards the plane line and then let it roll over . Uncock then roll. Sequenced or as MJ points overlapped to some degree.
PS don't try the hard hammering thing without a roll at the bottom .... a hard left wrist throw with a hold off can hurt your left wrist... .
I correct myself, I should have said in there release of pa3 AFTER start-down/transition.
I understand what you're saying. But I tend to prefer rotational power than velocity power. Why? It's because I don't think there's any need to put your mind on pa2 release. It will release no matter what you do. It won't only if you don't roll/release pa3 and you just make a pure lateral/horizontal motion of your body and left hand.
But once you roll that pa3, pa2 WILL release. Maybe for people who can't turn their body for whatever physical limitations, velocity power is the priority. But for those who really turn, who really pivots, rotational power is definitely the way. Power would in my estimation be almost the same. The difference is ACCURACY. Hitting the sweet spot more often. Which if you have, you can give it all you've got.
I correct myself, I should have said in there release of pa3 AFTER start-down/transition.
I understand what you're saying. But I tend to prefer rotational power than velocity power. Why? It's because I don't think there's any need to put your mind on pa2 release. It will release no matter what you do. It won't only if you don't roll/release pa3 and you just make a pure lateral/horizontal motion of your body and left hand.
But once you roll that pa3, pa2 WILL release. Maybe for people who can't turn their body for whatever physical limitations, velocity power is the priority. But for those who really turn, who really pivots, rotational power is definitely the way. Power would in my estimation be almost the same. The difference is ACCURACY. Hitting the sweet spot more often. Which if you have, you can give it all you've got.
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