OB, why would you want to fire pa2 prior to start releasing pa3? Why do you want to lose the lag early? Why not full release of pa3 from start down, with pa2 automatically firing at release phase? This way you maximize accuracy, and have essentially same power?
Brian,
IMO, you can't release #3 before #2 and still comply with the plane. I think the first test of any golf swing discussion is whether it fits with the Imperatives.
Kevin
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I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
"Plus, isn't the head drop just a consequence of starting the DS with a lower body/hips move, which moves the left hip nearer the target, weight more on left foot/leg, and with intention of keeping the upper body cog or head somewhat fixed, your head has to move down or spine tilt away from target, hence move your head down?"
This is a good observation. Tigers grip was strengthened, and having a strong and level left wrist is an awkward combo if you haven't tried it. Im not endorsing this theory necessarily, but there is no point of setting the radius via the level left wrist if you have no intention of maintaining that radius, or especially, if you plan to hold the face....then you need it for support. Is that the best plan? who knows, certainly not our LBG way or Homer's way, but that's the defense.
Secondly, Brian is right here....it's impossible for your head not to go down if you shift weight totally to your left leg via hip slide while maintaining a centered head. The more centered the player and less the "leaner" the less you'll see it. (Nicklaus/Gay vs. Nelson/Trevino/D.Johnson). Like it or hate it, the vertical adds snap. Consistent??? Make your own decision, but it's happening everywhere. No one told them to do it until maybe recently. We could put pictures up all day of guy's heads going down then up, down then staying there with lean, barely down and barely up. Hundreds and hundreds of victories and millions and millions of dollars also........kind of hard to call it wrong. In line with TGM, no. Ideal for consistency? you tell me.....but outright wrong?????? Would the other make them better, or would it have made them people you've never heard of? Don't know
going in order of bolded statements.....
Jtill your statement "it's impossible for your head not to go down if you shift weight totally to your left leg via hip slide while maintaining a centered head." is NOT TRUE, try it for yourself, i can do it!... it's sort of saying, 'ya homer was on the right track with the head thing but not really when it comes down to reality cuz it's impossible to really do...' reality is based on physics, geometry and the laws of the universe, a bouncing post with an object rotating around it is no good. It is most certainly possible to shift the weight via a hip slide into the left leg and tilt the axis of the shoulders with a stationary post NO BOBBING NO SWAYING its perfectly possible and to say otherwise is wrong and is calling homer wrong.
Im gonna go ahead and call the tour player head bob wrong, if its unintentional its not wrong, its a malfunction to be refined until eliminated just as with any other swing fault. If its done consciously it is WRONG and injustice to golfdom as the fate of golfdom rests partially on the shoulders of ELDRICK....which are bouncing up and down...
It would have made them better! I can guarantee it. bouncing up and down is not adding any snap or power! no matter how much it seems like it is, this is what homer calls a SEEMS-AS-IF partially the reason for the book, to eliminate the seems-as-ifs by applying law because the golf stroke is governed by only that, the laws of the universe, physics, geometry. other things they are employing to power the swing may inadvertently cause the head to drop and so it seems that the head drop is the power move, the head dropping and jumping up is not adding anything and is ALWAYS A MALFUNCTION no matter how many majors they have.
Jtill your statement "it's impossible for your head not to go down if you shift weight totally to your left leg via hip slide while maintaining a centered head." is NOT TRUE, try it for yourself, i can do it!... it's sort of saying, 'ya homer was on the right track with the head thing but not really when it comes down to reality cuz it's impossible to really do...' reality is based on physics, geometry and the laws of the universe, a bouncing post with an object rotating around it is no good. It is most certainly possible to shift the weight via a hip slide into the left leg and tilt the axis of the shoulders with a stationary post NO BOBBING NO SWAYING its perfectly possible and to say otherwise is wrong and is calling homer wrong.
Im gonna go ahead and call the tour player head bob wrong, if its unintentional its not wrong, its a malfunction to be refined until eliminated just as with any other swing fault. If its done consciously it is WRONG and injustice to golfdom as the fate of golfdom rests partially on the shoulders of ELDRICK....which are bouncing up and down...
It would have made them better! I can guarantee it. bouncing up and down is not adding any snap or power! no matter how much it seems like it is, this is what homer calls a SEEMS-AS-IF partially the reason for the book, to eliminate the seems-as-ifs by applying law because the golf stroke is governed by only that, the laws of the universe, physics, geometry. other things they are employing to power the swing may inadvertently cause the head to drop and so it seems that the head drop is the power move, the head dropping and jumping up is not adding anything and is ALWAYS A MALFUNCTION no matter how many majors they have.
Whip, I appreciate your response and am impressed with your confidence. Im not even going to get into the you guarantee you could make the best players ever better by not letting their head move thing, but I do want to clarify a couple of things...
(1)on the hip slide/ head dip: I should have specified that I was referring to this in the context of Tiger Woods (the man who is dooming golfdom from a head dip). What I meant was that under the tutelage of Sean Foley, where he's getting 90% of the weight left, the back shoulder IS NOT going "down plane", and low point (left shoulder) IS NOT returning to where it started, but rather will move forward (as many many many do), that it will be impossible for his head not to go down. The "totally" to your left leg is the part I should have bolded I guess. I have zero interest in trying to call Homer wrong. TGM is the groundwork for all I have done and learned and built upon, and I think it is the most complete instructional golf book ever written. If I have different views on this or that will never change that. To your totally disagreeing and try it for yourself idea, believe it or not I have. The amount of weight shift is the key ingredient though. With a centered head, centered pivot, right shoulder moving down plane, and left shoulder returning to a similar location, as Mr. Kelley described, of course it is possible. (I know cause I tried it). Mr.Kelley was a brilliant man. I also don't remember him ever guaranteeing he could make the best players in the world better or saying you HAD to do this or that as the only way..... Brilliant man. My comments on the head dip were meant to be under the Foley umbrella. I have found however, that for me personally, I learn alot more from studying the greatest players in the world by what they actually do. And why it works. Regardless of if it goes against someones suggestions or breaks a theory or two. It is always easy to say they would be better if they didn't do this or that......there's just no evidence of whether or not that's the case, especially as a rule of law. Seems way more beneficial to learn from what they actually did. There have been tons of players improved by instruction, and there have been double that many ruined. Sometimes an off the cuff conclusion about a broken rule is more than meets the eye. As you said, sometimes positions are unintentional .......and sometimes preparatory and subconscious, and other times manipulations. I've never said that I teach players to squat and jump, or encourage it. Foley, who I was referencing through Tiger, does. And sometimes its a little more complicated than "don't do that". Theory is great and I love it, but you can also learn from what's actually happening ...... even if you don't like it or it doesn't fit your mold. So Whip, please forgive my ambiguity regarding the head dip; you are absolutely correct that you can slide your hips to the left and keep your head centered without a bob........just only to a certain extent of a weight shift, with a certain shoulder plane, and tracing a certain line. I am always happy to explain my opinions if they are ones that I post, but would rather not be pinned against one of my idols as an instructor and researcher with only pieces of the story. (Mr.Kelley used everything he could get his hands on or that was available to him to cultivate his theory and ideas, and never called it a done deal. I think he would have his followers do the same. To cite him as an inspiration and idol, and to try to continue to learn and build from the wealth of information he gifted us is how I would assume he would be the most honored. I hope nothing I ever do or say gives any impression otherwise.)
Jtill your statement "it's impossible for your head not to go down if you shift weight totally to your left leg via hip slide while maintaining a centered head." is NOT TRUE, try it for yourself, i can do it!... it's sort of saying, 'ya homer was on the right track with the head thing but not really when it comes down to reality cuz it's impossible to really do...' reality is based on physics, geometry and the laws of the universe, a bouncing post with an object rotating around it is no good. It is most certainly possible to shift the weight via a hip slide into the left leg and tilt the axis of the shoulders with a stationary post NO BOBBING NO SWAYING its perfectly possible and to say otherwise is wrong and is calling homer wrong.
Im gonna go ahead and call the tour player head bob wrong, if its unintentional its not wrong, its a malfunction to be refined until eliminated just as with any other swing fault. If its done consciously it is WRONG and injustice to golfdom as the fate of golfdom rests partially on the shoulders of ELDRICK....which are bouncing up and down...
It would have made them better! I can guarantee it. bouncing up and down is not adding any snap or power! no matter how much it seems like it is, this is what homer calls a SEEMS-AS-IF partially the reason for the book, to eliminate the seems-as-ifs by applying law because the golf stroke is governed by only that, the laws of the universe, physics, geometry. other things they are employing to power the swing may inadvertently cause the head to drop and so it seems that the head drop is the power move, the head dropping and jumping up is not adding anything and is ALWAYS A MALFUNCTION no matter how many majors they have.
What would you then to maintain the shoulder to ball radius if you fire the lower body with lateral movement? You would have to intentionally lift the head/shoulders a bit by straightening your spine a bit, right?
Wouldn't that be less easier compared to just unc0cking at setup our left wrist more than level (which is what would be at impact) to approximate the amount of shoulder-ball radius shortening?
Exactly what I'm about to post. Full sweep release. Only a very few strong individuals can afford to wait and release pa3 late. I think this is the reason many dismiss outright a mainly pa3-based release. It's too damn hard. That's why you gotta start releasing pa3 ASAP. From transition.
Here's what I think, you experts please help me out and comment please:
1. Your left wrist, at level status, has acute pa3 angle, the most your butt palm pad and index finger can handle. You obtain this at setup. 90 degrees is ideal.
2. Left wrist must be level from top to impact to maintain the pa3 angle.
3. You start to release the pa3 accumulator right after start down. Almost simultaneous. (I start down with lower body, I.e., hips). Why? An acute pa3 angle is too damn hard to release. Immeasurably hard. So you start ASAP.
4. Pa2 is released automatically. It should be given no thought at all. The left wrist pa2 travel for fully c0cked to level is so short anyway, it's immaterial. In fact, if you release pa2 intentionally, the momentum it generates is so hard, that if you do it your left wrist will unc0ck more than level, which in turn will render pa3 release impossible.
5. Why pa3 based release with acute pa3 angle? Accuracy. With distance. Accuracy AND distance. Gotta be strong though. And by the way, you can add pa1 without any negative consequence at all; only one requirement, bent right wrist at impact as required by the pa3 angle.
I'd like to believe this is what Tiger is doing. It is what Tiger is doing. It won't hit the ground because of his pa3 angle. Damn I'm hardheaded.
Comments? Anyone?
For starters -
1. No it doesn't, a level wrist is partially uncocked. You clearly don't know the definition of "level".
Exactly what I'm about to post. Full sweep release. Only a very few strong individuals can afford to wait and release pa3 late. I think this is the reason many dismiss outright a mainly pa3-based release. It's too damn hard. That's why you gotta start releasing pa3 ASAP. From transition.
Here's what I think, you experts please help me out and comment please:
1. Your left wrist, at level status, has acute pa3 angle, the most your butt palm pad and index finger can handle. You obtain this at setup. 90 degrees is ideal.
2. Left wrist must be level from top to impact to maintain the pa3 angle.
3. You start to release the pa3 accumulator right after start down. Almost simultaneous. (I start down with lower body, I.e., hips). Why? An acute pa3 angle is too damn hard to release. Immeasurably hard. So you start ASAP.
4. Pa2 is released automatically. It should be given no thought at all. The left wrist pa2 travel for fully c0cked to level is so short anyway, it's immaterial. In fact, if you release pa2 intentionally, the momentum it generates is so hard, that if you do it your left wrist will unc0ck more than level, which in turn will render pa3 release impossible.
5. Why pa3 based release with acute pa3 angle? Accuracy. With distance. Accuracy AND distance. Gotta be strong though. And by the way, you can add pa1 without any negative consequence at all; only one requirement, bent right wrist at impact as required by the pa3 angle.
I'd like to believe this is what Tiger is doing. It is what Tiger is doing. It won't hit the ground because of his pa3 angle. Damn I'm hardheaded.
Comments? Anyone?
Is this what you believe Eldrick is doing or trying to do? I don't see evidence of this....shoulders closed....left palm still karate chop? Elbow bordering on perverted pitch? How can #3 kick in at transition given the position he's in at delivery?
OB, why would you want to fire pa2 prior to start releasing pa3? Why do you want to lose the lag early? Why not full release of pa3 from start down, with pa2 automatically firing at release phase? This way you maximize accuracy, and have essentially same power?
This is a pretty astute question...you've essentially described the difference between Swinging and Hitting....
BUT keep in mind....the WHEN you fire/Trigger #2 (your release) is up to you the golfer...I don't think OB or B.O. or whatever his name is was suggesting that you throw immediately from the top (you can)....just that you throw sometime...when is your choice....
It's Swinging...it's SEQUENCED....#2 uncocking starts FIRST in the sequence....then #3....that's Swinging....
your second question .... why not let #3 go....well heck yeah...why not...then you'd be HITTING....you'd be releasing #3 AND #2 SIMULTANEOUSLY....
the BEAUTY of the SYSTEM....HOMER KNEW IT....the other thing he knew was THE IMPORTANCE OF RIGHT ARM PARTICIPATION.....NOT JUST THAT IT PARTICIPATES....BUT HOW IT PARTICIPATES....IT SUPPORTS THE LOADING....SUPPORTS THE LEVER ASSEMBLY BEING LOADED...
HITTING FOREARM
SWINGING FOREARM
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Last edited by 12 piece bucket : 12-23-2011 at 12:13 AM.
1. No it doesn't, a level wrist is partially uncocked. You clearly don't know the definition of "level".
I know definition of "level". What I mean in there is that at "level", the left arm-shaft angle must still be huge. I want a still substantial angle despite it being slightly unc0cked already. I want it level at impact, so at impact, I still want the pa3 angle as angled as possible. But yeah, it's partially unc0cked, as a necessity of maintaining huge pa3 angle as possible.
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