Hogan and Garcia seem to hold off and swing left
Fowler and mickelson let the left wrist roll/release.
Which method is correct?
Neither . . . preferences . . . My mind likes the Hogan move better . . . but that would be no surprise . . . in my opinion their are some mechanical advantages . . BUT it could be hard to learn and hard to do???
Sure . . . but look at the location of the HANDLE . . . some raise it up . . . some keep it low . . . I'm saying that shoulders torso or whatever is providing support to keep the handle from raising UP . . no that it's wrong . . . just different . . . keeps the club on the Arc of Approach . . . and on the face of the elbow plane rather than a plane angle shift . . . for instance fowler shifts the angle . . . I don't think Nicklaus in his day really shifted dramatically . . . could be wrong . . . could post pics. Fowler goes low to high . . . Nicklaus just stayed high . . . . Hoch too . . . Furyk is an interesting study because he does all that whacky stuff but once he gets to delivery or slotted or whatever you wanna call it . . . club moves pretty similar to Hogan. . .
I'm not saying this is hitting . . . or swinging . . . I don't know how you catalog it really . . . It seems to be more Arc of Approach procedure-ish . . .
I know exactly what you mean bro. The Handle raises but WE think it should stay down. It should stay down. Mine stays down, way down. Keep in mind that it's pretty easy to stay down with my snap release Horizontal Hinge. I'm sure that your right shoulder alignment will help with that but I'm saying that Rhythm and a Flat Left Wrist should do that and the Left Elbow needs to Bend after Impact. So, you can't glue the upper left arm to the chest (compensation) because the Elbow can't bend in time, so, the Handle will Raise when the Left Arm raises. So, I look at this procedure (compensation) and alignments you're referring to as a compensation for a compensation.
Also, you have to keep going down after impact so save some right elbow bend for that purpose. You need bend to have the right forearm on the Angle of Approach for Impact anyway.
I wonder if the Taly would teach that? Travel completely around the Pulley and bend the left elbow before the left arm raises.
I just looked at the video's and the guy demonstrating the Taly keeps his left arm glued to his chest also.
Hmm? I associate a Downstroke Plane shift with a Flip Releases but all Downstroke Plane Shifts don't have Flip Releases.
I'm not complaining about compensations. Players need them. I would be concerned if someone applies a compensation, although it works, for the wrong cause-effect.
I know you're not complaining about compensations. But you still believe they need to be there. It must be because you haven't been able to make the best out of an EP impact alignment for yourself.
My experience with the elbow plane is 100% the opposite of what you're saying. I get more lag pressure, I sustain the lag pressure longer, I basically get the same swing speed.
If I understand you guys correctly you're talking about "swinging left" on the Elbow Plane from a DTL perspective in Follow Through. If so how does the Right Shoulder keep the Hands down on that plane? Havent the Hands long since left their lagging the shoulders condition?
If you check my "apocalyptic" posts on accumulator 4 maybe you will be convinced that the shoulder turn always stays ahead of the hands. But you have to keep powering the turn to take advantage of it.
I am not a fan of the swinging left term. It sounds like a swing plane manipulation. But I believe that when it's done in a good way it is only about sustaining the lag pressure and supporting the plane.
However, the swing plane is outside - in. But it is paired with a release that is strongly inside - out. Combine the two and you get a three dimensional impact and a divot down the target line.
I know you're not complaining about compensations. But you still believe they need to be there. It must be because you haven't been able to make the best out of an EP impact alignment for yourself.
My experience with the elbow plane is 100% the opposite of what you're saying. I get more lag pressure, I sustain the lag pressure longer, I basically get the same swing speed.
We are not having a meeting of the minds although I think we agree on almost everything. It doesn't seem that way sometimes. This is one of those times.
Of course I think compensations are necessary. The truth according to what I've seen is that most players Improve because they apply the correct compensation for a personally preferred procedure or alignment. It's rare to find a player improve by eliminating compensations. I've worked my whole life toward that goal, and I've paid the price along the way by not improving until I had acquired "Alignment" knowledge.
I don't have a problem with the Elbow Plane except that you can't trace the Plane Line until the Plane Shift and you don't have On-Plane Right Shoulder support. Besides, the best golfers in the world have found compensations for those things.
Please bear with me during the following example.
If a Player uses a little Extensor Action with a Right Forearm Take-away procedure, he will Cock his Left Wrist by Bending his Right Elbow or raising his Arms, without cocking his Right Wrist. If a Player chooses not to use the Right Forearm Take-away procedure, he'll need to Cock the Left Wrist another way (compensation).
If a Player Cocks his Right Wrist, then he'll need to apply a compensation to Uncock the Right Wrist.
We are not having a meeting of the minds although I think we agree on almost everything. It doesn't seem that way sometimes. This is one of those times.
Yes, the differences are probably magnified at the expense of the common understanding. I can live with that. And I hope you can too. Cause I enjoy both the agreements and the disagreements.
I am not sure that the pictures we study show what we think they show. Actually I think we interpret what's going on plane wise is off the mark.
What's the most correct way of measuring the swing geometry? We look at the relationship between the hands and the clubhead - the line that runs from the hands through the sweet spot of the club. The area it covers throughout the swing is labeled as the inclined plane. And we attribute a great deal of value to it.
But what if we look at the hand path in separation and the clubhead path in separation? Elbow planers have their hands closer to their torso at address and impact. That's what keep them on the elbow plane. The shaft plane is raised during the back swing, which means that the hand path is pretty steep.
And overall the clubhead path can be quite steep as well for elbow planers. And perhaps steeeper than on the TSP. I don't think a TSP-er can take the club as high up as Furyk does and get away with it.
When Furyks swing was declared to be the most unfundamental at TGM he responded that he feels like he is swinging straight back and straight through. He doesn't feel like rerouting and plane shifting. Feel isn't real, I know that. But perhaps what we take from those pictures isn't real either. Perhaps Furyks application of force is much more straight back and forth than the photos might suggest. The golf stroke is a a 3D motion but we always look at it in two dimension. I wonder how good we are at seing the real force wectors that are working the club.
Look at Garcia:
Here, the clubhead has caught up with the hands when you look at the plane where the clubhead is going. (The up front view) But if we had a picture - not face on - but handpath - on - we would possibly see that there were still accumulator #3 lag present. Is he swinging left? Yes. But perhaps he has been swinging left all the time.
I say he is swinging left here:
It doesn't perhaps look like he is swinging left, but I say he is. The plane line of his hands' plane is pointing left of the target. His hands are too close to the ball here - and they will get even closer before they start moving left in our down the line view.
If he was on the TSP here he would be very close to thrusting all the PP# force he could produce right into the inside aft quadrant of the ball. But he is coming in with more accumulator #3 lag than the TSP-er and he needs to keep some of it in order to not place his sweet spot outside the target line. At this point his hands are already too close to the ball to go straight at the ball. And they will get even closer before they move away from the ball. He has to turn his hands to the inside. But the hands are already heading in that direction so it's not something he has to manufacture in the last instance.
I believe that "covering" the left arm with the right - as has been said earlier in this thread - really is a stroke that is powered along hands plane with an open plane line.
How shallow is the clubhead path really on the elbow plane? I don't know. We always look at the shaft angle and assume that the club goes where the hands has been. But in the big scheme of things the hands travel on a much steeper path than the clubhead. So how can the two move on the same plane?
Some of the flatness that we see is caused by accumulator #3 lag. Quite a lot actually. When I strike the ball on the elbow plane I use a lot more vertical force throughout than when I swing on the TSP. In fact, that's one of the reasons I like to do it. If you look at Garcia past impact his shaft angle has steepened quite a lot. I don't think that is caused by a reorientation of how he applies force. It is a direct consequence of reduced accumulator #3 lag. The club is in the process of catching up with the hands, and therefore the clubshaft is increaslingly reflecting the plane angle Garcia is thrusting on - and has been thrusting on for quite some time.
Take this as preliminary thoughts from me. I don't think I understand even half of what's going on here. But I am quite certain that the shaft angle we usually look at is quite deceptive.
When the Right Shoulder, the #3PP, and the Sweet Spot are married together at Top and move in the same direction in Start Down, the forces are aligned for maximum efficiency. Divergent forces are simply less efficient, but are found all the time on the PGA Tour.
In my own 4 Barrel Hit, the Pivot Drags the Power package toward the Plane Line with a Shoulder Turn Throw (10-20-C). And, I follow with a Right Arm Throw (10-20-B). It feels like I’m throwing a baseball at the golf ball.
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Daryl Added:
Yes......
The Pivot generates the Raw underlying Power either like a Flywheel or, in addition, acts like a Backstop for Right Arm Thrust.
What tells the Pivot where to go?? The Hands should. The Pivot should go where the Hands need it to go and not subjugate the Hands into trying to accommodate the Pivot. The Pivot should Accommodate the Hands. But you can be very successful either way........
In figures 5 and 6, Justin talks about the feel of flattening his back wrist to start the downswing and then angle the shaft handle to the inside quadrant of the ball (elbow in?).
Are we talking about imagining a baseball bat being flung at a real small tee ball?
ICT
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HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
I see Launching Pad here . . . . I gotta go on a patented 2 hour lunch break . . . but I'll have more to say about this . . . I see the right shoulder motion supporting the motion of the primary lever and being a backstop for #1? Tip of Right Shoulder to pocket above left elbow joint . . . this is something that Eddie Cox has told me about numerous times . . . just now starting to see it . . . . good stuff . . . Even though the right shoulder is working down and out . . . it is still working ON TOP of the left arm Primary Lever . . . NOT UNDER NEATH IT . . . still tilting the tea cup but not shifting the plane . . . ultimate efficiency.
Bucket,
Gave my students from Italy a heavy dose of my machinestacker pattern along with a lot of Yoda in preparation for the Doral Jr. Publix. Results: In their respective divisions, Emilie Paltrinieri winner by 6 shots and her brother Julien Paltrinieri winner by 7 shots!
If you check my "apocalyptic" posts on accumulator 4 maybe you will be convinced that the shoulder turn always stays ahead of the hands. But you have to keep powering the turn to take advantage of it.
I am not a fan of the swinging left term. It sounds like a swing plane manipulation. But I believe that when it's done in a good way it is only about sustaining the lag pressure and supporting the plane.
The shoulder turn always stays ahead of the hands? Perhaps we need to define what this means to each of us.
To me that means that the shoulders are powering the hands and that the Hands havent separated or accelerated away from the shoulders. Meaning the right elbow is fully bent , the left arm is still in contact with the left pec. So you havent Released at all. The power accumulators are remain fully loaded. Well at least 4 and 1....which in my book means 2 and 3 are still fully loaded too. Im thinking you must have a different meaning in mind for "stays ahead" , not sure.
Not saying there isnt a feel of turning the pivot hard , keeping the arms packed for elbow planers. But a real would be a different deal altogether. Wouldnt it?
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