The "Classic Sit Down" position

[bts]

"All non-symetrical body movements are reflected in reaction forces- that is, forces of support from the ground on which one stands." Sven Carlsoo- Dept of Anatomy- Stockholm Sweden

Because of the rotary nature of the golf swing- you've got tremendous reaction forces going on- so I understand that issue, but I guess I'm unsure of the essence of your post- could you clarify. Specifically, these two sections:


1) "from the ground to be transferred through the feet all the way up through the pivot to the shoulders, which drive the arms"- If you were to end the first paragraph before this section- I follow it completely- but this last section throws me and I just need you to clarify exactly what your saying.

2) "it seems that you want to pull or push against something with the hands, yet the body moves from the ground up first"

By clarifying the above two sections- I may be able to understand the third thing I was uncertain of- but just in case, I'll ask it here ahead of time- Did you disagree with something in my previous post? I think so, but was not 100% sure.

Thanks for the feedback in advance.

Mike O.

Thanks for the attention.

For (1), it's just my idea of how the force and body movements flow during a swing, which might relate to the three quotes made earlier by Tongzilla.

For (2), again, I believe the body movement is the result/"effect" of (or reaction to) the intention (or the "cause"). In other words, there is an intention behind every concious body movement.

The "body movement" can be observed and analized by the viewers (but not the player in action without looking into a mirror or monitor) or felt by the player (maybe by the viwers) with certain attention.

Unless shared, however, the "intention" can hardly be known to the outsider. Even the player him/herself sometimes is confused. No wonder people get shocked all the time when viewing their own swings.

I believe "knowing what happens (or what is supposed to happen)" is one thing, "making it happen" is the other.

[Mike O]

Thanks for the attention.

For (1), it's just my idea of how the force and body movements flow during a swing, which might relate to the three quotes made earlier by Tongzilla.

For (2), again, I believe the body movement is the result/"effect" of (or reaction to) the intention (or the "cause"). In other words, there is an intention behind every concious body movement.

The "body movement" can be observed and analized by the viewers (but not the player in action without looking into a mirror or monitor) or felt by the player (maybe by the viwers) with certain attention.

Unless shared, however, the "intention" can hardly be known to the outsider. Even the player him/herself sometimes is confused. No wonder people get shocked all the time when viewing their own swings.

I believe "knowing what happens (or what is supposed to happen)" is one thing, "making it happen" is the other.

OK, That didn't help me. But I think this could be a good discussion so I want to pursue it. If I could take one item at a time- then regarding item #2 - Quoted: "For (2), again, I believe the body movement is the result/"effect" of (or reaction to) the intention (or the "cause"). In other words, there is an intention behind every concious body movement."

I absolutely agree with what you said in item #2, but it didn't help me understand your orginal post. My question to you regarding #2 is - What is the intention behind the golf swing movement?

Actually, upon re-reading your second post (#21), I see you're making the distinction that what your intention is and what's happening in the movement are two different things- A very important distinction in movement theory- so I'm with you 100% with that. But that's where I wanted you to clarify your post#15 in this thread. Say to specifically #1 in that post- what are you saying is happening and what are you saying is the intention, in regards to the golf swing. And staying on that thought- in regards to #1 in post #21, how do you see the forces flowing/working, in that regard. And, again I wasn't sure if your post#15 was supporting my previous post, or if you had a different perspective.

[12 piece bucket]

OK, That didn't help me. But I think this could be a good discussion so I want to pursue it. If I could take one item at a time- then regarding item #2 - Quoted: "For (2), again, I believe the body movement is the result/"effect" of (or reaction to) the intention (or the "cause"). In other words, there is an intention behind every concious body movement."

I absolutely agree with what you said in item #2, but it didn't help me understand your orginal post. My question to you regarding #2 is - What is the intention behind the golf swing movement?

Mike,

Thanks a ton for your contribution! Can't wait to see where this thread ends up

[bts]

OK, That didn't help me. But I think this could be a good discussion so I want to pursue it. If I could take one item at a time- then regarding item #2 - Quoted: "For (2), again, I believe the body movement is the result/"effect" of (or reaction to) the intention (or the "cause"). In other words, there is an intention behind every concious body movement."

I absolutely agree with what you said in item #2, but it didn't help me understand your orginal post. My question to you regarding #2 is - What is the intention behind the golf swing movement?

Actually, upon re-reading your second post (#21), I see you're making the distinction that what your intention is and what's happening in the movement are two different things- A very important distinction in movement theory- so I'm with you 100% with that. But that's where I wanted you to clarify your post#15 in this thread. Say to specifically #1 in that post- what are you saying is happening and what are you saying is the intention, in regards to the golf swing. And staying on that thought- in regards to #1 in post #21, how do you see the forces flowing/working, in that regard. And, again I wasn't sure if your post#15 was supporting my previous post, or if you had a different perspective.

Mike O, I appreciate your (and others) interests in this topic, as you always does in anything relate to this game, and apologize for not making it clear enough. I'll try it harder this time.

OK, "What is the intention behind the golf swing movement?"

There is an ultimate one I call "hands intention", the intention of "how you would like the HANDs to be moved" or what you would like to do to the HANDs", since they are where the club to be connected and controlled. This probably relates the most to what Homer writes in 5-0 "MONITORING".

With the club in the HANDs, the BODY will respond or react to that specific
"intention/thought/command" (or the "input") and display a corresponding pattern of movements (or the "output"), and so does the CLUB. It seems that's how it is supposed to work. The swing will be in a good shape, if the right"commond" has been executed currectly.

Of course, there could be other "intention(s)" behind the golf swing movement, which include:

"body intention"-"how you would like the BODY(parts) (other than the hands) to behave" or what you would like to do to the BODY(parts)",

"club intention"-"how you would like the CLUB to be moved" or what you would like to do to the CLUB",

"ball impact intention"-"how you would like the BALL to be hit/struck/impacted" or what you would like to do to the BALL"

"ball flight intention"-"how you would like the ball flight to be",

"target intention"-"where would you like the ball to land",

"hazard intention"-"how would you like the ball to get away from the hazards",

"score intention", "hole/money intention", "win or loss intention", "title intention", "ego intention", ...... and anything other than that "hands intention".

The most common example is "to hit it HIGH, FAR and STRAIGHT" and
the corresponding body movements usually are "pivot tilt away from the target and behind ball, forced casting arms and hands scooping",
the clubhead movement becomes "sharp downward, decelerating and outside-in toward impact",
the ball flight is "weak slice", and
the result is "missing the target", a typical victim of the "ball flight intention" being gotten in the way of the "swing intention", or should I say the "hands intention", for the majority of "instinctive" golfers. Or, people simply swing the way they want the ball (instead of the hands) to behave.

For others, see 3-F-7 "SNARE".

So, I believe, learn/fix the golf swing by learning/fixing the "command". Play the shot by executing, again, THE "command", regardless of the situation. A "machine" works according to the "program/command" only. So, what exactly is THE "command"? Whatever that works.

"Say to specifically #1 in that post- what are you saying is happening and what are you saying is the intention, in regards to the golf swing. And staying on that thought- in regards to #1 in post #21, how do you see the forces flowing/working, in that regard."

The "intention" (or input) is (supposed to be) "sustain the lag (toward somewhere with the hands)", and "what is happening" (or the output)is "the leading slight bump and turn of the lower body". Or, you only want to do something to (or the club with) the hands, yet the lower body (beginning with the feet) moves/responds first (while the command is being executed).

People generally expect or feel the part, upon which is intended to be operated, to move the first. It may not be the case, depending on the "converting process" (between the "input" and "output") of the action. It seems that your post work on that "converting process" in more detail and sounds quite reasonable.

I just tried to get my point out and provide my explanation why this is happening. Again, it seems that the body applies a force to the ground and receive a reactive/counter force from it through the feet. The arms and hands cann't actually move until that force reaching upward to the shoulders.

It seems to me that the concern of the body parts other than the hands during the swing is optional. It also seems that the mind can only work on one thing at a time. So, you are actually no longer "moving the hands", while working on "bumping and turning the pivot".

Also, I'm not sure if the feet has something to do with the "Swing Radius" (which I define "the line between the clubhead sweetspot to the base of the neck"), rather than the "power generator/accumulator/deliverer".

Again, I appreciate the attention and feedback. BTW, Happy Chinese New Year!

[Mike O]

BTS,
Thanks for the post- now I understand more clearly where you are coming from- and in general I don't have any other questions, as I think we're in general agreement. Although there is probably alot more cookin to do- 12 piece- do we need to fry any more chicken? If so, could you jump in and stir up some grease! Or maybe everyone's appetite is full on this course.

[bts]

I'm glad you like it this time.

Indeed, "there is probably alot more cookin to do". It's, to me, a very critical area, yet overlooked (as compared to swing mechanics). Those are pretty much my points by now. I'll touch on the topic, should it come up in the furture. Thanks again for the attention.

[6bmike]

Mike O- I have LOVED your posts for many years. I always have, and with pleasure, print them out and sit back and learn from them. I am so glad to see a few more posts from you.

It is so easy to look at the Hogan sequence- the one that was used by Matthew to show Lynn and Hogan's camera captured positions. In that sequence- his right knee is driven far down the target line that it is easy to be mislead that it moved early and before the hips. This is a Jim McLean thought of driving the right knee as startdown. What is not fully understood by many is Hula-Hula- the hip turn. Hogan of course could wear a grass skirt. I think Hula-Hula could be (should be??) an Imperative.

Hula Hula with Axis Tilt that controls the upper body- these independent actions is what allows the head to remain steady WITHOUT being “in the way”- the tripod.

[12 piece bucket]

BTS,
Thanks for the post- now I understand more clearly where you are coming from- and in general I don't have any other questions, as I think we're in general agreement. Although there is probably alot more cookin to do- 12 piece- do we need to fry any more chicken? If so, could you jump in and stir up some grease! Or maybe everyone's appetite is full on this course.

Mike!

When you get the finished parts out of the grease you gotta season while it's still hot. So how about this before we plate it with all the fixin's and hot sauce . . .

I think you are on to something about #3 feel and being a result of all the lag in the system including all the links in the gear chain.

Is it possible to sum up the "hands controlled pivot" and "intention controlled hands" thing succintly in a paragraph or so? I think we have put significant emphasis on the hands controlling everything. Mind in the hands. However, as you have said, sometimes you have to "pump up the flat." I know we can have educated hands but do you ever graduate?

Thanks a ton!

B

[Mike O]

12 Piece,
Out of steam right now, but 5-0 3rd paragraph somes it up pretty well - from the A) Hand Controlled issue, to the B) dictating to the FEET as well as the clubshaft, to C) clearing the right hip - "Hula Hula" importance posted by "Power Package" in post #27. (And thanks for the nice comments PowerPackage!)

In regards to "Do you ever graduate?"- well, maybe not- but it's the learning that's fun, i.e. the goal of accomplishing the graduation- that you don't have, that's the exciting part, not the graduation itself.

Finally, here is a final thought for you- that I'm just going to throw out- anotherwords it's not going to be as detailed as it could or should be.

There is definitely alot more detail and potential discovery in regards to really understanding the hand controlled pivot concept- Homer had it correct but just touched on the subject- and I think most of us either consciously or subconsciously realize that.

So everthing really flows from the movements made at the hands, and then the forearms, arms and so on.

For example, as Powerpackage essentially said- clearing the hip is so important it should be an imperative.

So we've got three basic options for clearing the right hip. 1) Just take your hands down the plane and in order to do that - you'll have to clear the hip in order for the elbow not to crash into it. 2) Take the hands up to the top, then practice your start down waggles and train your pivot to clear the hip- Look, Look, Look until you can turn those mechanics into the proper feel.
Those first two are the basic Golfing Machine approaches- the third approach is as follows- and I'm going to cover it quickly without alot of detail. When you pronate (palm down) with the forearm- the pattern of movement is as follows: the arm straightens, and the shoulder moves forward. That's basic reaching out pattern of movement to grab something. Let's review- reach out and grab something on the table- say with your left hand, it's pronation of the left forearm, extension of the arm, lateral abduction of the upper arm from the torso (i.e. moves out to the side slightly) and forward movement of the clavicle of the shoulder girdle. Now, as you bring back that little bug to eat, the opposite pattern occurs, supination of the forearm, flexion of the arm, lateral adduction of the upper arm (elbow comes back towards the midline of the body) and retraction of the shoulder girdle. So you've got these patterns of movement that flow through the body. So in alot of sports motions and golf here's how you do it.

Let's assume that we are all right handed golfers.
Stand up and put your hands palms facing in front of you, with your arms parallel to the ground, and the hands vertical to the ground - or the back of your left hand (target hand) facing the target. Now, we're going to go through one motion and see the pattern of motion flow through the body. So, turn i.e. supinate your left hand (palm facing the sky) and pronate your right hand (palm facing the ground)- do that as much as you can- anotherwords hit the extreme range of motion. Hold it there. You should see the pattern emerging that I described above, the left arm wants to bend the right wants to become straight, the left elbow wants to come towards the mid-line, the left shoulder lowers, the right shoulder raises. Because of those motions, the hips have slid- the left hip has cleared to the right, so on and so on. Note this is the opposite of what the right hander wants to happen on the backswing. But if we start back at the beginning and pronate the left forearm and supinate the right forearm, then you'll see the proper downswing motion for the right handed golfer- right elbow flexes and the upper right arm wants to externally rotate i.e. the elbow wants to come into the body (say pitch position), that creates lateral flexion of the trunk (hip slide), and all of those movements: 1) the flexion of the right arm, 2)the external rotation of the humerus (elbow moving towards the mid body), 3) retraction of the right shoulder girdle 4) the lateral flexion of the trunk on the right side, all keep that right should back and down- i.e. on plane.

So- to make the quick jump- the pronation and supination of the forearms are crucial and one of the first links to the whole thing working correctly. And in the golf swing, the basic program may be as follows: Start in the standing position with palms facing and arms parallel to the ground, back of the left hand facing the target- You'll just be turning the forearms in this excercise, but I'll be noting if you were swinging a golf club where you would be in the swing.
1) Supinate the right forearm (right palm faces the sky) and Pronate the left forearm (left palm faces the ground). (In golf - your half way back - clubshaft parallel to the ground)
2) Now, fully pronate the right forearm (right palm faces the ground), and fully supinate the left forearm (left palm faces the sky). (In golf- your at the top/end of the backswing)
3) Now, fully supinate the right forearm (right palm facing the sky) and fully pronate the left forearm (left palm facing the ground). (In golf- your half way down on the downswing- clubshaft parallel to the ground)
4) Now, pronate the right forearm and supinate the left forearm until your back to the beginning- back of left hand facing the target and both hands vertical to the ground. (In golf, your now at impact)

You might try it- those kind of joint motions starting at the hands will produce and create the kind of body motions that result in clubhead lag and on-plane motion, clearing the right hip, etc, etc. In a full motion swing, you need to concentrate on 1, 2, 3 but 4 will take care of itself via centrifugal force.

I think that's some of the additional information you'll need to get that diploma!

[rwh]

12 Piece,
Out of steam right now, but 5-0 3rd paragraph somes it up pretty well - from the A) Hand Controlled issue, to the B) dictating to the FEET as well as the clubshaft, to C) clearing the right hip - "Hula Hula" importance posted by "Power Package" in post #27. (And thanks for the nice comments PowerPackage!)

In regards to "Do you ever graduate?"- well, maybe not- but it's the learning that's fun, i.e. the goal of accomplishing the graduation- that you don't have, that's the exciting part, not the graduation itself.

Finally, here is a final thought for you- that I'm just going to throw out- anotherwords it's not going to be as detailed as it could or should be.

There is definitely alot more detail and potential discovery in regards to really understanding the hand controlled pivot concept- Homer had it correct but just touched on the subject- and I think most of us either consciously or subconsciously realize that.

So everthing really flows from the movements made at the hands, and then the forearms, arms and so on.

For example, as Powerpackage essentially said- clearing the hip is so important it should be an imperative.

So we've got three basic options for clearing the right hip. 1) Just take your hands down the plane and in order to do that - you'll have to clear the hip in order for the elbow not to crash into it. 2) Take the hands up to the top, then practice your start down waggles and train your pivot to clear the hip- Look, Look, Look until you can turn those mechanics into the proper feel.
Those first two are the basic Golfing Machine approaches- the third approach is as follows- and I'm going to cover it quickly without alot of detail. When you pronate (palm down) with the forearm- the pattern of movement is as follows: the arm straightens, and the shoulder moves forward. That's basic reaching out pattern of movement to grab something. Let's review- reach out and grab something on the table- say with your left hand, it's pronation of the left forearm, extension of the arm, lateral abduction of the upper arm from the torso (i.e. moves out to the side slightly) and forward movement of the clavicle of the shoulder girdle. Now, as you bring back that little bug to eat, the opposite pattern occurs, supination of the forearm, flexion of the arm, lateral adduction of the upper arm (elbow comes back towards the midline of the body) and retraction of the shoulder girdle. So you've got these patterns of movement that flow through the body. So in alot of sports motions and golf here's how you do it.

Let's assume that we are all right handed golfers.
Stand up and put your hands palms facing in front of you, with your arms parallel to the ground, and the hands vertical to the ground - or the back of your left hand (target hand) facing the target. Now, we're going to go through one motion and see the pattern of motion flow through the body. So, turn i.e. supinate your left hand (palm facing the sky) and pronate your right hand (palm facing the ground)- do that as much as you can- anotherwords hit the extreme range of motion. Hold it there. You should see the pattern emerging that I described above, the left arm wants to bend the right wants to become straight, the left elbow wants to come towards the mid-line, the left shoulder lowers, the right shoulder raises. Because of those motions, the hips have slid- the left hip has cleared to the right, so on and so on. Note this is the opposite of what the right hander wants to happen on the backswing. But if we start back at the beginning and pronate the left forearm and supinate the right forearm, then you'll see the proper downswing motion for the right handed golfer- right elbow flexes and the upper right arm wants to externally rotate i.e. the elbow wants to come into the body (say pitch position), that creates lateral flexion of the trunk (hip slide), and all of those movements: 1) the flexion of the right arm, 2)the external rotation of the humerus (elbow moving towards the mid body), 3) retraction of the right shoulder girdle 4) the lateral flexion of the trunk on the right side, all keep that right should back and down- i.e. on plane.

So- to make the quick jump- the pronation and supination of the forearms are crucial and one of the first links to the whole thing working correctly. And in the golf swing, the basic program may be as follows: Start in the standing position with palms facing and arms parallel to the ground, back of the left hand facing the target- You'll just be turning the forearms in this excercise, but I'll be noting if you were swinging a golf club where you would be in the swing.
1) Supinate the right forearm (right palm faces the sky) and Pronate the left forearm (left palm faces the ground). (In golf - your half way back - clubshaft parallel to the ground)
2) Now, fully pronate the right forearm (right palm faces the ground), and fully supinate the left forearm (left palm faces the sky). (In golf- your at the top/end of the backswing)3) Now, fully supinate the right forearm (right palm facing the sky) and fully pronate the left forearm (left palm facing the ground). (In golf- your half way down on the downswing- clubshaft parallel to the ground)
4) Now, pronate the right forearm and supinate the left forearm until your back to the beginning- back of left hand facing the target and both hands vertical to the ground. (In golf, your now at impact)

You might try it- those kind of joint motions starting at the hands will produce and create the kind of body motions that result in clubhead lag and on-plane motion, clearing the right hip, etc, etc. In a full motion swing, you need to concentrate on 1, 2, 3 but 4 will take care of itself via centrifugal force.

I think that's some of the additional information you'll need to get that diploma!

Mike,

This is a fascinating discussion. Thank you for these posts.

I assume you are describing a Swinging procedure with the exercise. To put a "label" on these motions, I would say that #1 describes the "start up swivel" and #4 describes the "release swivel".

I'm probably doing something wrong because I don't do step #2. Once I reach the step #1 position, I maintain it to the top and back down to club once again parallel to the ground.

What am I missing?