Originally Posted by Par71
I understand that Delayed Hip Action with preturned Hips will assure Clearing of the Right Hip. But preturning the Hips is not mandatory for Delayed Hip Action, is it? Homer says "Turn the Hips a predetermined amount - or none at all - and then semi-lock them at that point before starting back with either the Shoulders or the Club." (Bold by me.)
I took the quote in my first post above to mean that Delayed Hip Action even without preturned Hips would assure Clearing of the Right Hip, whereas Standard Hip Action would not. Maybe that was not intended.
Originally Posted by Yoda
No, Par71, that most certainly was not the intent. In fact, a "sticky" right hip has produced probably more horrendous golf shots under tournament pressure than any other error. Ask Greg Norman, whose closet would have at least one or two green jackets if that were not the case coming down the stretch.
The "or none at all" you bolded refers to those Strokes where no Hip Turn -- pre-cleared or otherwise -- is necessary, e.g., a ten-foot putt.
I do not think putting would be applicable to a delayed hip action because the hips power the downstroke shoulder turn with this variation, I think you would use zero hip action with zero hip turn for putting...
I do not think putting would be applicable to a delayed hip action because the hips power the downstroke shoulder turn with this variation, I think you would use zero hip action with zero hip turn for putting...
Wow. See how confusing this is?
I used a ten-foot putt to make the most obvious example I could think of.
Originally Posted by Yoda
The "or none at all" you bolded refers to those Strokes where no Hip Turn -- pre-cleared or otherwise -- is necessary, e.g., a ten-foot putt.
You can't have a Hip Action if there is no Hip Turn.
When you related putting to delayed hip action, that is what was confusing. Otherwise I would not have posted. I have Reread the post and still do not find it confusing.
If you'll read my post carefully, you'll see that I wrote "Hip Turn" not Hip Action (Delayed or otherwise).
And, a Hip Turn that moves "none at all" -- the point that was under discussion and which I took to the extreme in my putting example (no Hip Turn in either direction) -- is classified as a Zero Hip Turn (10-14-E). This Component Variation automatically produces a Zero Hip Action (10-15-D) -- not Standard, Delayed, or Short. It also tends to automatically produce Zero Knee Action (10-16-E) and Zero Foot Action (10-17-E). All this constrains the Shoulder Turn but does not initiate it (in either direction). Hence, no work, and by definition, no Action.
That said, let's take the subject a bit further. It is possible for the Hips to Turn in the Stroke, yet do no work. This situation would also be classified as Zero Hip Action, even though there was a Hip Turn.
In this instance, the Hips are providing motion only, and that motion may resemble the Standard Action (free Turn with Hips leading in both directions). However, they are not pulling the shoulders in either direction, a fact usually evidenced by a "perceptible slackness in the Hip and Shoulder relationship".
When you related putting to delayed hip action, that is what was confusing. Otherwise I would not have posted.
Originally Posted by Yoda
If you'll read my post carefully, you'll see that I wrote "Hip Turn" not Hip Action (Delayed or otherwise).
And, a Hip Turn that moves "none at all" -- the point that was under discussion and which I took to the extreme in my putting example (no Hip Turn in either direction) -- is classified as a Zero Hip Turn (10-14-E). This Component Variation automatically produces a Zero Hip Action (10-15-D) -- not Standard, Delayed, or Short. It also tends to automatically produce Zero Knee Action (10-16-E) and Zero Foot Action (10-17-E). All this constrains the Shoulder Turn but does not initiate it (in either direction). Hence, no work, and by definition, no Action.
That said, let's take the subject a bit further. It is possible for the Hips to Turn in the Stroke, yet do no work. This situation would also be classified as Zero Hip Action, even though there was a Hip Turn.
In this instance, the Hips are providing motion only, and that motion may resemble the Standard Action (free Turn with Hips leading in both directions). However, they are not pulling the shoulders in either direction, a fact usually evidenced by a "perceptible slackness in the Hip and Shoulder relationship".
Right Lynn, zero hip turn automatically produces zero hip action, "the or none at all" is straight out of 10-15-b delayed hip action, which would be incompatible if you are using no hip turn e.g. A ten foot putt
So the "or none at all" that is in the description of 10-15-b DELAYED HIP ACTION could not have been referring to those strokes where no hip turn is necessary because zero hip turn and delayed hip action are incompatible components.
Right Lynn, zero hip turn automatically produces zero hip action, "the or none at all" is straight out of 10-15-b delayed hip action, which would be incompatible if you are using no hip turn e.g. A ten foot putt
So the "or none at all" that is in the description of 10-15-b DELAYED HIP ACTION could not have been referring to those strokes where no hip turn is necessary because zero hip turn and delayed hip action are incompatible components.
I see what you're saying, Whip, and I agree with your premise as stated. What we're having a hard time with here is that I wasn't talking about the Delayed Downstroke Hip Action. Instead, I was referring to the Zeroed Backstroke Hip Turn! Here's my quote -- I've bolded the word 'Turn' -- from my post to Par71:
Originally Posted by Yoda
The "or none at all" you bolded refers to those Strokes where no Hip Turn -- pre-cleared or otherwise -- is necessary, e.g., a ten-foot putt. :
That is the same differentiation Homer Kelley made when he said "Use this Hip Turn to prevent Overswinging." He was talking about a specific methodology to effect a Backstroke Hip Turn (from Zero to Free) in preparation for its Delayed Action in Start Down.
My simple example was deliberately not about Hip Action. It was about the Zero Turn. I used a ten-foot putt as my example because it so readily demonstrates the "none at all" Hip Turn PRINCIPLE.
Bottom line for readers as we 'move on' from here:
Each of the 24 Components in TGM has its separate identity. The Components coordinate in accordance with a given Stroke Pattern and its listed Variations, but nevertheless they remain independent. It is all too easy to mix things up -- to attach one thing to another as if they were inseparable -- and so inhibit a true and precise understanding.
I understand your point lynn and how the none at all refers to a zeroed hip turn (which makes a perfect example), for the backstroke regardless of the delayed downstroke hip action, You were not talking about delayed hip action, but par 71 was, and it is he who posed the question in which u responded. I'm not making a mountain out of a mole hill, but I don't think par71s question was responded regarding the "or none at all" certainly if you were not talking about the delayed hip action (as he was) and instead talking about zero hip turn in the backstroke
Hybrid Mode
