I think the assumption that the hands and the clubhead are moved on the same plane is preventing us to fully understand what's really going on in Hogan's swing.
That's what defines the Plane. Hands and Clubhead.
That's what defines the Plane. Hands and Clubhead.
I know.
So ideally at impact you have the whole club, the hands and the right forearm on plane. The whole left arm and the right upper arm is above plane. That is a lot of moving mass above the swing plane right there. This moving mass isn't counter balanced with mass sitting below the swing plane. Cause there aint nothing there.
In other words; the primary lever assembly isn't properly balanced for an on plane motion powered by an on-plane linear force. If you thrust on-plane the lever assembly will be moved off plane. And the clubface will be rotated open. So you have to manipulate the direction of your linear thrust and add a little anti clock wise torque to keep the cluface under control to make the stroke look pretty and and well behaved through impact. But you would really fighting against a mass distribution that is unbalanced.
But I don't think good golfers do that. I think they swing and thrust on planes we don't see. Cause we really haven't figured out what planes we should be looking at when we study the physics involved.
Some good golfers are so close to what is commonly held as ideal planar motion that we take it as a confirmation of a very good stroke and a very good theory. At the same time there are equally consistent players who are doing all kinds of plane shifting and plane bending that are equally effective. Then we tell each other that we are looking at compensation and that they get good results not because of but in spite of.
So ideally at impact you have the whole club, the hands and the right forearm on plane. The whole left arm and the right upper arm is above plane. That is a lot of moving mass above the swing plane right there. This moving mass isn't counter balanced with mass sitting below the swing plane. Cause there aint nothing there.
In other words; the primary lever assembly isn't properly balanced for an on plane motion powered by an on-plane linear force. If you thrust on-plane the lever assembly will be moved off plane. And the clubface will be rotated open. So you have to manipulate the direction of your linear thrust and add a little anti clock wise torque to keep the cluface under control to make the stroke look pretty and and well behaved through impact. But you would really fighting against a mass distribution that is unbalanced.
But I don't think good golfers do that. I think they swing and thrust on planes we don't see. Cause we really haven't figured out what planes we should be looking at when we study the physics involved.
Some good golfers are so close to what is commonly held as ideal planar motion that we take it as a confirmation of a very good stroke and a very good theory. At the same time there are equally consistent players who are doing all kinds of plane shifting and plane bending that are equally effective. Then we tell each other that we are looking at compensation and that they get good results not because of but in spite of.
Well, "if" TGM is, in the main, power package alignments? That is no small thing you just said!!
PS: Happy Christmas, OB Left. It has been a pleasure to agree and disagree with you in 2k10.
BerntR Didnt realize we'd be sneaking some more "disagrees" in before the new year....cool. It aint over till its over.
I love your thinking mans approach, keep em coming. Im being perfectly serious here. You make me think .........which is often kinda pathetic but hey Im trying.
Imbalanced ..... ya, that changes everything. So we've got the circular orbit , which seeks out a straight line given enough force (like a rock on a string) but we need to direct this straight line not through the ball in some manner (arc or angle of approach visual equivalent given parallax) but somewhere else? This somewhere else must be different for each club , for each swingweight for each ball position ..... how do we locate this moveable feast of somewhere elses?
That would make golf not difficult but impossible wouldnt it? Like looking at the ball through prism glasses? Which you can get when hitting out of water if you know what I mean.
The Aiming Point can move ...hmmm We direct the force at it and its not where the ball is ........necessarily. Hmmm On the same Delivery Line as the ball I believe to make up for the rate at which different club switch ends ..
Are you talking about different places located on the Delivery Line , clubhead path or outside or inside of it? Something in total conflict with Homer's directing the orbit or its straight line, plane line through the ball? Which would move the plane to this new somewhere else not through the ball.
Your reverse torque sounds like vertical to me......maybe steering even. Not being insulting here every body fights it. Put me on a mat for five minutes and Im doing it. Do you fight pulls but tend to miss both ways? Sounds like a compensational "reverse torque" to me if your answer is yes. Maybe I dont know what "reverse toque" means? Ah, in fact I know I dont know what it means.....
In other words; the primary lever assembly isn't properly balanced for an on plane motion powered by an on-plane linear force.
[Color and Bold emphasis by Yoda]
Nor is a hammer "properly balanced". But, if you hurl one end-over-end, it must rotate around its longitudinal center of gravity, i.e., its sweetspot. Not symmetrically like a Chinese throwing star, but in a funky sort of head-over-heels way.
And so it is with the "On Plane Motion" of the Golf Stroke. The Clubshaft and Left Arm must rotate about the Sweetspot. Unless you prevent that from happening (which most golfers do). We have a name for that . . .
Steering.
The First Snare (3-F-7-A).
The "On Plane Linear Force" (Centrifugal or Muscular Thrust via the Right Forearm) is applied "at right angles to the Longitudinal Center of Gravity" (1-L-11). The Force (Thrust) is indifferent to the configuration of the Primary Lever (In-Line or Out-of-Line given the Grip and the #3 Accumulator Angle). Except, of course, as that configuration ultimately determines the location of the Sweetspot.
I do believe BerntR is talking about the primary lever. The mass of the left arm is above plane through impact so pushing on the left hand would be like a "swing" (childs playground swing) if the forve is on plane of the shaft- 90 deg to the plane of the primary lever assembly. For now I will not even attempt that exercise.
Guys, I know that, for newbies, my ideas (as presented and explained in literally thousands of posts) may sound so 'out there' and 'technical'. But, they are -- as precisely as words can convey -- exactly what must happen. And, as a guide for those studying The Golfing Machine, I usually reference the key points.
Trust me, I can "dumb it down". In fact, I make a living "dumbing it down", but only within the context of a student's own athletic motion and his understanding of exactly what must be done. However, for most readers of this site, whose Motion I can't possibly know, I cannot differentiate individually. Since I cannot, I do not. That relegates you to your own understanding as to where you comply with geometric principle and where you do not.
But, mano a mano, and in less than a minute on simple questions such as the above, I show you The Truth, and you say . . . .
Oh Yeah!
I see it.
I get it.
And then you'll stripe a host of shots right up the sprinkler heads.
That is when I know we have reached our own understanding.
And I believe you. But even you need some discussion to validate a theory based on empirical results
If you ease on the dumbing down for a minute: What are the causes of the different post-impact alignments we see in VJ and Hogan? I think I understand VJ's move pretty well. But less so with Hogan.
How does Hogan manage to hold his wedges so well and so far past impact?
What are the causes of the different post-impact alignments we see in VJ and Hogan? I think I understand VJ's move pretty well. But less so with Hogan.
How does Hogan manage to hold his wedges so well and so far past impact?
I've seen swing sequences of both Ben and V.J. with markedly different impact alignments . . . in their own swings!
Please post a specific photo comparison together with your own observations and conclusions. I'll then add my own. Everybody else feel free to join the fun!
Has anyone considered "Plane Line Tracing"? ______________________________________________
Although there may be multiple causes for Off Plane Post Impact Shaft Syndrome (O-PPISS) , maybe the solution, if one finds it necessary, is going back to the basic fundamentals.
, maybe the solution, if one finds it necessary, is going back to the basic fundamentals.
Linear Mode
