-Seeing these drawings to scale is very interesting isnt it. Homer's drawings were not to scale Im thinking for illustrative purposes maybe?
- I've wondered about playing the ball back with a wedge....6 inches back doesnt seem excessive to my mind, but without coming up prematurely that implies a 12" inch divot doesnt it. I could see that on super soft , wet soggy turf maybe but not otherwise. So do we not play it that far back, come up early or perhaps deflect out of , off the tera firma? I dunno.
-you are assuming the low point plane line to be defined by the sweetspot rather than the bottom of the club. It doesnt change your findings at all but it would illustrate the depth the clubhead would descend to beneath the ground at low point for balls played back in the stance and determine the length of divot too, I think.
-I wished you'd posted this in my thread but maybe its run it course anyways.............. here's whats bugging me. Homer in his drawing 2-C-1-3 drew the Angle of Approach as straight line from impact to separation. Separation appearing to be at low point. But in 2-J-3 he describes in words, the Angle as running from Impact to Low Point. So taking him on his words of 2-J-3, how would drawing 2-C-1-3 change if separation is back of low point, as it often is? The LOC will not be both pointing at the hole and pointing down the Arc of Approach for instance as the Arc will be out to the right. The Arc and the Angle will not intersect at Separation. What does it all mean?
We need a new 2-C-1-3 for balls back in the stance.
Great stuff D thanks
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2-C-1 LINEAR FORCE – THE IDEAL APPLICATION IDEAL VECTOR ALIGNMENT (SHOWN WITH IMPACT INTERVAL EXTENDED TO LOW POINT).
1. Homers Drawings were extended to Low-Point for Illustrative purposes (see above quote).
2. We can move this thread to your thread if you like.
3. Dear O.B. Left; The Clubface is hooked to divert forces from going out to right field.
But you brought up 2 very Important Points.
The Angle of Approach is "Plane Angle" from the Impact Point to Low-Point and it should be represented with a "Looking Down" Drawing as in 2-C-1 #3. If you Draw the "Angle of Approach" in a Down-the-Line-View, as in 2-C-1#1, it "is" the Sweetspot Plane Angle - i.e. it is lying flat against the Sweetspot Plane. Therefore it is always intersecting. See the Illustration below. The Sweetspot Plane "is" the Angle of Approach: the Green Line
The 2nd Point is that the "Point of Impact and the Point of Separation" must be the same.
Imagine this, as sickening as it is......
12 Piece Bucket is on his first date. He tries to kiss her good night. He puts his hands on the side of her head like a clamp to stop her from pulling away (he learned from experience). So that as much and often as she struggles, his lips will touch hers and at separation his lips will still be touching hers when he lets go. Now imagine if, during her struggle, her head rotated up the face of the inclined striker. At separation, his lips would be touching her "forehead" (lob shot). That's why we must "Hinge" through the Impact Interval. We must have Impact Point and Separation Point, the same point on the Ball. We do not want the ball to Roll up the face of the Inclined Striker. This is for Maximum Compression. See the quote below.
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2-C-1 LINEAR FORCE ... This is designated the “Ideal Application” because it produces perfect Vector alignments because the Angled Clubshaft and the Closing Clubface (the “Full Roll” of Horizontal Hinge Action – 7-10) are rotating around the same center and there is no glancing force except for backspin.
Bold by Daryl
So, I think that we should tell the "D Plane" people that their goal is to make the ball "ROLL" up the Clubface as much as possible to keep the spin axis horizontal to the ground thereby eliminating side-spin and increasing backspin for more lift and carry. Then hit up with the Driver and learn to hit up with the wedges too.
1. Homers Drawings were extended to Low-Point for Illustrative purposes (see above quote).
Agreed, to draw them to scale often makes the geometry's differences look minute and therefor insignificant. I think that though it may appear to be minute to our eyes, it is anything but insignificant to the ball and therefor to the golfer. The impact interval is way smaller than illustrated but......its effects upon the ball are profound.
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2. We can move this thread to your thread if you like.
Naw, you're on a roll here, mine turned into something else, plus as a general rule I dont wish to contribute to any thread that would have me as a contributor.
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3. Dear O.B. Left; The Clubface is hooked to divert forces from going out to right field.
Which raises the matter of ball flight. 2-C-1-#3 is a straight shot Id imagine? Our D plane friends can help us out here maybe until we're up to speed. But if we move the ball back and square the face to the hole .......draw shot that starts straight and curves left id imagine.
D, did you do that drawing of 2-C-1 #1 Nice reproduction with colour too. Are you interested in trying 2-C-1-#3 but with the ball back of low point? If so it'd be nice to include a plane line and its direction vis a vis the target.
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But you brought up 2 very Important Points.
The Angle of Approach is "Plane Angle" from the Impact Point to Low-Point and it should be represented with a "Looking Down" Drawing as in 2-C-1 #3. If you Draw the "Angle of Approach" in a Down-the-Line-View, as in 2-C-1#1, it "is" the Sweetspot Plane Angle - i.e. it is lying flat against the Sweetspot Plane. Therefore it is always intersecting. See the Illustration below. The Sweetspot Plane "is" the Angle of Approach: the Green Line
Angle of Approach Delivery Line , 2-J-3 is hard on the head. Im thinking the Angle of Approach is a visual from the golfers perspective of the clubhead blur. So 2-C-1-#3, Im thinking is not a birds eye, plan view but a golfers p.o.v. , Homer did say "looking down", "player's view". These words were carefully crafted but often overlooked. You could say its the golfers view of the Sweetspot on the clufbace burr, but its not one and the same as the Sweetspot Plane Id say unless the Sweetspot plane is elevated to eye level .....which it isnt.
Totally agree with everything about Bucket......sickening man. Get the heck out there billy goat , hop the fence ....
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So, I think that we should tell the "D Plane" people that their goal is to make the ball "ROLL" up the Clubface as much as possible to keep the spin axis horizontal to the ground thereby eliminating side-spin and increasing backspin for more lift and carry. Then hit up with the Driver and learn to hit up with the wedges too.
You joke of course , but I do like hitting up on it sometimes with a driver......I think Homer's words on the matter are correct as written and support hitting up on it if the situation merits. Per 2-J-2 INSIDE OUT IMPACT:
"The ball should always be struck prior to the low point of the Down-stroke, even when using a Driver, except under special conditions or to produce a special effect, which is a separate area of consideration."
This is gonna be a good thread, Daryl, 'specially with those D plane guys around to "straighten us out", so to speak. Im glad we have Trackman to discuss too. We're on the verge of "adding more detail", via additional information and questions of all kinds. More detail, more precision, more birdies.
Thanks for the photo of Homer's garage. Cant believe its unchanged.
The ball takes on a side spin that equals the RPM of the horizontal hinge. You can see the ball take on a spin in all thee drawings at page 17 in the 6th edition.
The ball takes on a side spin that equals the RPM of the horizontal hinge. You can see the ball take on a spin in all thee drawings at page 17 in the 6th edition.
Hey Bernt, is this really a true statement? When in contact with the clubface, every part of the ball is rotating at the RPM of the horizontal hinge (ie the ball is not spinning horizontally around its centre of gravity). Once the ball separates from the clubface, there is no more force causing the ball to accelerate to the center of the hinge so every part of the ball will assume a straight line motion, tangential to the circle that it was moving on when in contact with the clubface. The outermost point on the ball will have more speed than the innermost point on the ball so there may be some adjustment until a steady state is achieved but I don't see how that can turn into a sustained horizontal spin.
You appear to be wise in the ways of physics. If you can explain the mechanism, I'd appreciate it. Thanks
The force of the Impact will hold the ball against the face of the orbiting Clubhead and so carry it along the same circular path. This places the ball under the laws of Centrifugal Force. Which requires that the ball leave its circular path at right angles to the radius of that path at the point at which it leaves that path. But the hook-face alignment of the Clubhead – designed to give it the proper relation to the Plane Line – diverts the ball from its true tangential path. This geometric alignment assures full production of straightaway velocity by assuring no glancing action other than for producing backspin. Study 2-J and 2-F.
Here's my simple view of this. It is clear from the drawings in 2C that the ball rotates during contact. It is a physical fact that this rotation will proceed until the ball is exposed to a force that stops the rotation. I can't see any force present that would do work the ball clock wise here and stop the side spin. Except perhaps the wind drag that will reduce this minute sidespin during the air time.
I think Daryl's quote must be read in the context of the relationship between centrifugal force and inertia. When the ball leaves the club, the centrifugal force is shut down and the ball proceeds in the direction it had at separation. I don't think that quote is ment to address side spin.
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