Pivot - couple of very interesting studies

[O.B.Left]

Im in total agreement with all that. My first paragraph concerned the backstroke. The difference lies in the notion of the Right Shoulder being on Plane in Startdown as opposed to a notion of the Plane of the Shoulders being aligned to the Inclined Plane. The first one is genius, the second .............awkward. Im all for a Standard Shoulder Turn and a Turned Shoulder Plane. Flat back and then On Plane going down.

The Plane of the Shoulders and the Plane of Motion of the Hands do not need to be aligned. My apologies to Jim Hardy although I think the One Planers align the Plane of the Shoulders to the Plane of the Left ARm and Homer didnt have either of those components on his Inclined Plane. For a Standard Shoulder Turn , in Startup, the Right Shoulder will turn IN on a flat path and the Right Arm will fan BACK, IN and bend UP. They dont move in the same direction. Their vectors are divergent. The on plane force is resultant but under direction of the Brain through its outpost in the Hands, the Pressure Points. Just like hitting a tennis ball. You dont align your pivot to the ball, you align your hand path (or the racquet heads extension of it) to the balls path. The pivot still contributes greatly but its the Hand path that is aligned. Hands to Pivot is obvious in all applications except for golf for some reason. The legacy of the one piece takeaway , or a misconception of it maybe?

Shoulder turn takeaway takes the Hands in the direction the Shoulders are traveling........always under plane..........although some people try to align the Shoulders Plane to the Inclined Plane to correct the Hand Path.........which is unnecessary. Just Trace with your brain in your #3 and let 'em go in their own direction, going back anyways. See the McDonald drills. In Startdown its a different story assuming the TSP. There the Right Shoulder and the Hands meet up on the Inclined Plane at Top and travel down plane together in Startdown under the power of the Right Shoulder. But still under the direction of the Brain via the Hands.

Basically if your Tracing you're Hands to Pivot. See the glossaries definition of the Pivot.

[BerntR]

Shoulder turn takeaway takes the Hands in the direction the Shoulders are traveling

Who says that you can't do both simultaneously? That's what I'm doing when I play my best golf. Feels like starting the back swing with feet and arms basically.

Daryl,

Thanks for a very thorough and very advanced reply. I'm not sure if I understand all of what you say.

My problem with single plane is that I am no good at it. And one of the issues I have is that I loose the sense of right hand control in the down stroke.

Being a plane shifter I don't see my own ball striking in you description. I use the hands a lot - for distance & trajectory control. The pivot for sure doesn't control nor command what the hands do. And the hands aren't able control the pivot either. Right hand lag pressure is key to distance control on less than full shots.

I find it much easier to achieve a stable pressure point balance and a steady clubhead through the ball on the elbow plane than any other plane.

Of course, all of this may be due to personal style & preferences.

[O.B.Left]

Who says that you can't do both simultaneously? That's what I'm doing when I play my best golf. Feels like starting the back swing with feet and arms basically.

Yes , exactly do both as opposed to merely a shoulder turn takeaway. Hands to Pivot does not mean that the Pivot does not start things going in Startup. The pivot can provide the initial move away, but given an intention to Trace it will become Hands to Pivot. I too feel like my best golf sees my pivot getting things started in Startup. The first few inches or whatever. My right hip turns back accompanied by a lagging takeaway, then my right forearm fans and picks up. All the time Im Tracing.

Again, if your Tracing you're good. Hands to Pivot.

[BerntR]

Again, if your Tracing you're good. Hands to Pivot.

Sometimes I'm tracing. At other times I'm struggling....

[innercityteacher]

BerntR! How are you? How is your golf game?

[BerntR]

Thanks for asking, Innercityteacher.

The game is gradually recovering. Scores are going down. The short game is back. But the ball striking isn't really back yet. I have a few holes on every round where I completely lose it from tee to green. I am still struggling with bad habits from when I tried to start with the right forearm on plane. (And probably some bad habits that are even older) When it happens I completely lose the pressure point balance that enables me to pull & push and trap the ball. With the driver then, the club comes inside-out with open club face. The swing feels OK but the ball ends up on someone's roof - if let the pivot go all in. I discovered the other day that I am arching with my left wrist on the top when this happens. That is something I can deliberately avoid if I think about it. But then we're talking hand manipulation. When I have the alignments right I can just swing back and strike through and the ball gets trapped without any manipulation whatsoever. When I'm out in the back yard and just sweep through the grass I get regularly reminders that I still have have it.

The swing clicks in from time to time when I play too. A couple of rounds ago it clicked in on the back nine when I tried to hit a low percentage shot with a hybryd 200 yards away from the pin, with a small but steep hill right in front of the ball. Unfortunately I didn't get the launch high enough to carry the hill so it went into overspin modus and went half the distance. But I knew I had it then, I proceeded to hit the ball to 2 feet from 100 yards, saved the par and went on to basically hit every green for the last 5-6 holes. I could go out and play in the 70s tomorrow but I don't think it will happen for quite some time yet.

My experiences with plane shift is almost entirely the opposite of what Daryl has written so either he is wrong or I am rather untypical. I need to keep the shaft on a rather flat angle to get stability and a max lag pressure through impact. The steeper the shaft angle becomes at impact the closer I get to a flip release, the less lag pressure I am able to apply through impact and the less predictable the result gets.

I am not 100% certain whether I am really plane shifting or merely keeping the club shaft on a flatter plane throughout. As OB Left has pointed out, the swing plane doesn't have to be the shaft plane. The stroke looks like a shift down to the elbow plane, but it feels like being on the plane at all times. It could be that I'm using a Hank Haney type of parallell planes, with the club head on plane all the time. The whole stroke feels pretty much like a dual horizontal motion with an accumulator 3 motion that is very flat, so to speak. Anyway, this shallow shaft plane gets me as far away from flip territory as I can get. It works pretty well in the short game too.

[innercityteacher]

I can educate my hands to travel the correct path to the ball if I can take ppt #3 to the ball, effectively?


Patrick

Im in total agreement with all that. My first paragraph concerned the backstroke. The difference lies in the notion of the Right Shoulder being on Plane in Startdown as opposed to a notion of the Plane of the Shoulders being aligned to the Inclined Plane. The first one is genius, the second .............awkward. Im all for a Standard Shoulder Turn and a Turned Shoulder Plane. Flat back and then On Plane going down.

The Plane of the Shoulders and the Plane of Motion of the Hands do not need to be aligned. My apologies to Jim Hardy although I think the One Planers align the Plane of the Shoulders to the Plane of the Left ARm and Homer didnt have either of those components on his Inclined Plane. For a Standard Shoulder Turn , in Startup, the Right Shoulder will turn IN on a flat path and the Right Arm will fan BACK, IN and bend UP. They dont move in the same direction. Their vectors are divergent. The on plane force is resultant but under direction of the Brain through its outpost in the Hands, the Pressure Points. Just like hitting a tennis ball. You dont align your pivot to the ball, you align your hand path (or the racquet heads extension of it) to the balls path. The pivot still contributes greatly but its the Hand path that is aligned. Hands to Pivot is obvious in all applications except for golf for some reason. The legacy of the one piece takeaway , or a misconception of it maybe?

Shoulder turn takeaway takes the Hands in the direction the Shoulders are traveling........always under plane..........although some people try to align the Shoulders Plane to the Inclined Plane to correct the Hand Path.........which is unnecessary. Just Trace with your brain in your #3 and let 'em go in their own direction, going back anyways. See the McDonald drills. In Startdown its a different story assuming the TSP. There the Right Shoulder and the Hands meet up on the Inclined Plane at Top and travel down plane together in Startdown under the power of the Right Shoulder. But still under the direction of the Brain via the Hands.

Basically if your Tracing you're Hands to Pivot. See the glossaries definition of the Pivot.

[O.B.Left]

I can educate my hands to travel the correct path to the ball if I can take ppt #3 to the ball, effectively?


Patrick

The quick answer is yes. That would be Hands to Pivot.



The long answer....... Homer said that the "Hands are not educated until they control the pivot".

He also defined the Pivot as "A multiple universal-joint assembly between the the Stationary Head and the Startionalry Feet holding the Clubshaft "On Plane" by positioning and adjusting the Lever Assembly, through the #3 Accumulator , as directed by the Right Forearm".

He also said that the #3pp was at the top of the Longitudinal Center of Gravity the Sweetspot Plane, which is what CF is really swinging On Plane as opposed to the clubshaft. Meaning that the feeling at the #3pp is the feeling of the Sweetspot.

So to direct the #3pp is to direct the Sweetspot , so to speak. And if your pivot complies in a manner that promotes this Tracing or Thrusting at the Aiming Point, which ever you prefer...........then the answer to your question is....yes. And you are therefor Hands to Pivot.

Again I say, if you are Tracing , or if you prefer Thrusting at the Aiming Point, you are Hands to Pivot. Pivot to Hands is the Pivot throwing the Hands off plane. If they are on plane...........you dont have a problem. Homer said "A Shoulder Turn Takeaway is always under plane". If you are on plane , despite your Shoulders contribution to the backstroke powering .......you are good, Hands to Pivot. Something that can only be accomplished if the Pivot and the Arms , Zones 1 and 2 travel in different directions. The Shoulder Turn Takeaway Homer refers to is one where the Shoulders and Arms are locked together and travel as a single unit. United by tension at the Arm to Shoulder connection or via Pressure Point blackout, ignorance.

[BerntR]

From OB Left;

Homer said "A Shoulder Turn Takeaway is always under plane".

.....

The Shoulder Turn Takeaway Homer refers to is one where the Shoulders and Arms are locked together and travel as a single unit. United by tension at the Arm to Shoulder connection or via Pressure Point blackout, ignorance.

I'm bringing this back to life as I had an interesting experience today.

Out on the course. Struggling because I am still mixing patterns. I eventually found a swing that had power. And kept it for the remaining holes. Last two holes were driver - sand wedge on a 420 yard par 4 - and then 3 wood + 5 wood on a 480 yard par 5. Both holes were in benign wind conditions, but this was good ball striking by my standard. And the 5 wood was climbing towards the moon before it dropped dead on the green. With a Pinnacle ball. In down wind. What a shot

I was using something that must have been very close to turned sholder plane. More hip tilt than I usually do. Facing straight at the ball. ( I usualy face above the ball)

And adjusting my stance to pretty normal square address position.

The power center of the swing was higher up in my pivot than usual. It felt like ii turned the club around a point almost as high as the shoulders. Whereas normally, the power center is around the belly button and I stand erect to the ball.

Back home I was able to reproduce this stroke pattern and the one that is my regular patter. (Amazing how much easier it is to do these things away from the course.)

I noted another significant difference: The pattern I use today has both arms straigth a little past impact. The pattern I usually use have both arms straight when the arms are horizontal into the follow through. Quite a lot more pivot and hands speed through the ball. Not more swing speed but a lot more thrust. And a greater sense of stability and connectedness through impact.

I have to address the ball wit an open stance to do my normal pattern. And I have to start the back swing from the feet to get the club on plane. This must be because I start from an address position where my pivot is extensively rotated. It is geometrically open (seen from above) but physically it is still closed.

Reflection upon the differences, it seems to basically be a timing difference. In the stock TGM swing, you start with a forarm pickup, and by hip height or so, the pivot and arms move in unison. That's a place where everyting is very well connected. And that's the place where i address my ball, so to speak. I've just turned everything through to a point where everything is connected. And I have moved the ball much closer to the release.

There's just no running out of anything until way past the ball. Running out of right arm is a no isse, since it basically is turning together with the pivot. Today I was aiming my pp#1 and #3 out towards the ball. The stock TGM way of doing it. Usually I aim them straight through the ball on the target line.

It is perhaps needless to say, but I'll say it anyway. What goes up tends to come down again. If you start with arms only in the back swing it will basically be arms at impact. But if you start with an address position that requires engagement from the feet, and with pivot and arms together, so will your motion be through impact.

[innercityteacher]

I lean to the ball a bit more. I fix my wedges at sternum center and feel very connected and powerful. I hit a very long, consistent draw. Using that I have shot as low as 5 over on a 9 hole par 36.

I'm not sure why I stopped. Oh yeah, there is just too many good ideas on this website to try! It is a little like a Minneeesoda smorgasboard when you know you'll be snowed-in for three days

I'm sort of infatuated, lately, with the idea of whipping my left hand vertical hinge down, out, forward, up and in.

Thanks for giving me something else to puzzle over, Bernt, I'll keep you posted.

Patrick

From OB Left;


I'm bringing this back to life as I had an interesting experience today.

Out on the course. Struggling because I am still mixing patterns. I eventually found a swing that had power. And kept it for the remaining holes. Last two holes were driver - sand wedge on a 420 yard par 4 - and then 3 wood + 5 wood on a 480 yard par 5. Both holes were in benign wind conditions, but this was good ball striking by my standard. And the 5 wood was climbing towards the moon before it dropped dead on the green. With a Pinnacle ball. In down wind. What a shot

I was using something that must have been very close to turned sholder plane. More hip tilt than I usually do. Facing straight at the ball. ( I usualy face above the ball)

And adjusting my stance to pretty normal square address position.

The power center of the swing was higher up in my pivot than usual. It felt like ii turned the club around a point almost as high as the shoulders. Whereas normally, the power center is around the belly button and I stand erect to the ball.

Back home I was able to reproduce this stroke pattern and the one that is my regular patter. (Amazing how much easier it is to do these things away from the course.)

I noted another significant difference: The pattern I use today has both arms straigth a little past impact. The pattern I usually use have both arms straight when the arms are horizontal into the follow through. Quite a lot more pivot and hands speed through the ball. Not more swing speed but a lot more thrust. And a greater sense of stability and connectedness through impact.

I have to address the ball wit an open stance to do my normal pattern. And I have to start the back swing from the feet to get the club on plane. This must be because I start from an address position where my pivot is extensively rotated. It is geometrically open (seen from above) but physically it is still closed.

Reflection upon the differences, it seems to basically be a timing difference. In the stock TGM swing, you start with a forarm pickup, and by hip height or so, the pivot and arms move in unison. That's a place where everyting is very well connected. And that's the place where i address my ball, so to speak. I've just turned everything through to a point where everything is connected. And I have moved the ball much closer to the release.

There's just no running out of anything until way past the ball. Running out of right arm is a no isse, since it basically is turning together with the pivot. Today I was aiming my pp#1 and #3 out towards the ball. The stock TGM way of doing it. Usually I aim them straight through the ball on the target line.

It is perhaps needless to say, but I'll say it anyway. What goes up tends to come down again. If you start with arms only in the back swing it will basically be arms at impact. But if you start with an address position that requires engagement from the feet, and with pivot and arms together, so will your motion be through impact.