Okie - yes, that link is a powerful one. Try holding the top of your backswing and imagine a line tied from the left knee to the right shoulder. Without moving anything else, start the left knee directly left and you'll get the feel for how that pulls the right shoulder and gets the pivot into the "Snead Squat" position. A very powerful position.
Nice we're really getting into the nuts and bolts now.
EdZ, I have a slight variation on this. In my mind I have some rubber, surgical tubing that connects my left hip to my right shoulder. The hips lead, laterally as above but once left they turn to maintain the stretch. Its a work in progress for me.
Hogan did say knees and hips in the SWWOG demo but watch his left foot! Note when it hits the ground sequentially. Although I must admit it is a bit of a chicken and egg thing.
Gary Gilcrest told me a similar thing when I was still a whipper-snapper. Leadbetter had told him that the downswing starts with the left knee moving. Is that the same thing?
I am little lost. How did Tomasello say the downswing was initiated? The pulling action of the forearms, or the accelertion of the right shoulder? I probably should know given that this path is well worn, but occured to me that I was a bit vague. Do the arms move the shoulder, or does the right shoulder move the arms? Or do the hips actually move first because the intent was to move the right shoulder down plane? I have posted before that in my own stroke pattern my conscious thought is to hurtle my right shoulder down plane, but the eye of the camera suggest that regardless of my intent the hips slide tilting my axis. Thinking about hip slide is the kiss of death for me. As for pulling of the forearms that tends to disconnect my power package from its engine, the pivot.
I find it interesting that you regard TT as a TGM savant extrodinaire. I agree with OB in that Homer would not be nailed down to one pattern etc. To me any teacher that over emphasizes one pattern, or component variation for that matter, to the exclusion of all others misses the point! Either, they do not have a full understanding of all the workable patterns, or they cannot resist the temptation to have a pet pattern. TGM then becomes a method, and no longer a catalogue of workability. We are still then just looking for a magic bullet (which I have found by the way! ) I like what TT says. To tout his expertise as without peer is admirable from a loyalty point of view, but I think it ultimately marginalizes Tom Tomasello in the eyes of many in light of our benefactor's (Yoda) vast knowledge. Lynn certainly does not have to defend his prowess, it literally speaks for itself. A true TGM savant is not married to a methodology, ultimately honoring Homer's intent. For TT it may have been a hit and miss kind of thing. I think he had an aversion to hitting, which I think has some real advantages. It is tough to be objective, most everybody picks favorites. I found Homer's reluctance to speak adamantly about what he preferred to be quite irritating! Now I appreciate why. Like 10-20-E? Then utilize 10-20-E!
Tomasello....6 ways to start the club down (in the book if you used the hand throw you could get it up to approximately 9 or 10). You have the book read chapter 11 section 20...in the sixth edition it's trigger combinations....
It's interesting they are no knee triggers and there are no hip triggers...wonder why?
The parallel....shooting a gun!!! To set the bullet in motion you have to pull the trigger. In TGM there are 5 basic trigger types.
BTW, the thing about the forearm startdown...you need to develop an "Instant Acceleration" Hip Action per 10-19-C...as Tommy says in the Australia video series, the left hip will react to the action of the right forearm. Tommy's student (Mark Evershed)calls it the "Quiet Body" action, I call it the "Reactive Body" or Hip Action. Both the Hips and Right Shoulder respond to the triggering action of the Muscles of both forearms. Even with a 10-20-C triggering action the hips still lead the shoulders. As Tommy said in his GI interview, there is no seperation between the hips and shoulders.
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 02-17-2010 at 10:04 PM.
I am little lost. How did Tomasello say the downswing was initiated? The pulling action of the forearms, or the accelertion of the right shoulder? I probably should know given that this path is well worn, but occured to me that I was a bit vague. Do the arms move the shoulder, or does the right shoulder move the arms? Or do the hips actually move first because the intent was to move the right shoulder down plane? I have posted before that in my own stroke pattern my conscious thought is to hurtle my right shoulder down plane, but the eye of the camera suggest that regardless of my intent the hips slide tilting my axis. Thinking about hip slide is the kiss of death for me. As for pulling of the forearms that tends to disconnect my power package from its engine, the pivot.
I find it interesting that you regard TT as a TGM savant extrodinaire. I agree with OB in that Homer would not be nailed down to one pattern etc. To me any teacher that over emphasizes one pattern, or component variation for that matter, to the exclusion of all others misses the point! Either, they do not have a full understanding of all the workable patterns, or they cannot resist the temptation to have a pet pattern. TGM then becomes a method, and no longer a catalogue of workability. We are still then just looking for a magic bullet (which I have found by the way! ) I like what TT says. To tout his expertise as without peer is admirable from a loyalty point of view, but I think it ultimately marginalizes Tom Tomasello in the eyes of many in light of our benefactor's (Yoda) vast knowledge. Lynn certainly does not have to defend his prowess, it literally speaks for itself. A true TGM savant is not married to a methodology, ultimately honoring Homer's intent. For TT it may have been a hit and miss kind of thing. I think he had an aversion to hitting, which I think has some real advantages. It is tough to be objective, most everybody picks favorites. I found Homer's reluctance to speak adamantly about what he preferred to be quite irritating! Now I appreciate why. Like 10-20-E? Then utilize 10-20-E!
Tomasello....6 ways to start the club down (in the book if you used the hand throw you could get it up to approximately 9 or 10). You have the book read chapter 11 section 20...in the sixth edition it's trigger combinations....
It's interesting they are no knee triggers and there are no hip triggers...wonder why?
The parallel....shooting a gun!!! To set the bullet in motion you have to pull the trigger. In TGM there are 5 basic trigger types.
BTW, the thing about the forearm startdown...you need to develop an "Instant Acceleration" Hip Action per 10-19-C...as Tommy says in the Australia video series, the left hip will react to the action of the right forearm. Tommy's student (Mark Evershed)calls it the "Quiet Body" action, I call it the "Reactive Body" or Hip Action. Both the Hips and Right Shoulder respond to the triggering action of the Muscles of both forearms. Even with a 10-20-C triggering action the hips still lead the shoulders. As Tommy said in his GI interview, there is no seperation between the hips and shoulders.
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 02-17-2010 at 10:03 PM.
There is no doubt that TT knew his stuff, and so do you. Thanks for the homework! I will do it. I tend to agree with the shoulder/hip connection. The big killer in my swing it when the right shoulder stops its down plane journey too soon.
not the best footage, but I just got away with this one. I had just enough right elbow bend to keep it in the general vacinity of my target. I have a tendency to get a little sweepy with the release. I lose a little #1, which in turn changes the relationship of the #2. I have pretty good mittens so my hand speed compensates well. I am working hard on delaying the #1 acc. For me trigger delay is mostly about the quality of my shoulder acceleration. The tendency to run out right arm as a youngster causing pull-draws, pulls and pull-hooks prevented me from missing cuts on the Hooters Tour! God bless that pull!
Nice we're really getting into the nuts and bolts now.
EdZ, I have a slight variation on this. In my mind I have some rubber, surgical tubing that connects my left hip to my right shoulder. The hips lead, laterally as above but once left they turn to maintain the stretch. Its a work in progress for me.
Hogan did say knees and hips in the SWWOG demo but watch his left foot! Note when it hits the ground sequentially. Although I must admit it is a bit of a chicken and egg thing.
It might seem like the same, but there is an important difference between using the knee, and using the hips.
If you start with the knee, it sets the right shoulder down plane. If you start with the hip, the right shoulder very often comes out over plane.
DG - I can't speak for Snead, but in my case when I really load #4 properly, #2 is also loaded, very strongly and it can 'feel' like a pull.
__________________
"Support the On Plane Swinging Force in Balance"
"we have no friends, we have no enemies, we have only teachers"
Simplicity buffs, see 5-0, 1-L, 2-0 A and B 10-2-B, 4-D, 6B-1D, 6-B-3-0-1, 6-C-1, 6-E-2
Why not just stay with the sweep release you mention? Do you feel your more 12-1 or 12-2?
If you asked me to guess Id say 12-1 which goes really nicely with your position at Top, Sweep Release, Delayed #1, a Shoulder Throw and then............ a Right Arm throw (not sure if you use it or not). That would be a classic set of Hitters components.
Im thinking you're done.
PS 4 Barrel, Arc of Approach procedure? You dog, you. I bet you're long long long.
It might seem like the same, but there is an important difference between using the knee, and using the hips.
If you start with the knee, it sets the right shoulder down plane. If you start with the hip, the right shoulder very often comes out over plane.
DG - I can't speak for Snead, but in my case when I really load #4 properly, #2 is also loaded, very strongly and it can 'feel' like a pull.
Guys,
Isn't what EdZ is saying about knees then hips as a down stroke sequence exactly what Homer tells us in 6-M-1?
Quote:
The “Centers” of the Stroke start with the Feet or the employeed Component nearest to the feet in the following order: Knees, Hips, Shoulders, arms, Right Elbow, Left Wristcock and/or Left Hand Rotation. For maximum Power, the position of must be taken with that will allow Delay of the Release until all Components, except the Right Foot and Right Shoulder, have reached, or passed the Line-of-Site-to-the-Ball per 6-B-1-C. Then the Accumulators must move very rapidly toward their “In-Line” Position. But none should actually arrive (lose all their Lag and Drag until well after Impact. Also see 6-H-0.
Maybe I'm just stating the obvious and have misunderstood the conversation?
Thanks all, I really appreciate the insight you are ALL providing!
Kevin
__________________
I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
There is no doubt that TT knew his stuff, and so do you. Thanks for the homework! I will do it. I tend to agree with the shoulder/hip connection. The big killer in my swing it when the right shoulder stops its down plane journey too soon.
not the best footage, but I just got away with this one. I had just enough right elbow bend to keep it in the general vacinity of my target. I have a tendency to get a little sweepy with the release. I lose a little #1, which in turn changes the relationship of the #2. I have pretty good mittens so my hand speed compensates well. I am working hard on delaying the #1 acc. For me trigger delay is mostly about the quality of my shoulder acceleration. The tendency to run out right arm as a youngster causing pull-draws, pulls and pull-hooks prevented me from missing cuts on the Hooters Tour! God bless that pull!
Thanks for sticking to your Tommy Guns!
Very nice swing Okie!
Do you still have a lot of pulls? Only thing I see is that with your grip position (which I like), if you get the right hand a touch too high (over) at address, it is harder to keep the right shoulder going down.
I wouldn't change the grip, but just make sure your right arm is very relaxed and the right wrist is level before startup.
__________________
"Support the On Plane Swinging Force in Balance"
"we have no friends, we have no enemies, we have only teachers"
Simplicity buffs, see 5-0, 1-L, 2-0 A and B 10-2-B, 4-D, 6B-1D, 6-B-3-0-1, 6-C-1, 6-E-2
Dang Edz how simple is that? Thank you for the kudos as well. I pretty much hate my golf swing! So do you think the right hand is rolled and uncocked? That makes great sense to me. Thank you for that. I really appreciate your expertise. I am amazed at your willingness to help pro bono.
Thanks OB
I drive load. As for the barrels I am pretentious enough to attempt all four. I cannot for the life of me relegate the right arm to passivity, I am not that thrusting. To be honest trying (I stress trying) to use them all has impacted accuracy as much as it has power. Power golf is good golf.With hitting you have to be aware of that the right elbow is doing. That is true for swinging as well but in a different way. To me (and perhaps just me)non automatic sweep releases can add a variable of inconsistency. As I age my hands will slow down like everything else (except for the growth of unsightly hair in my ears)Like everyone else I want something for nothing i.e. automatic snap releases!
Shoulder throw for sure. I do not have to worry about the right arm straightening...it does that all by itself it seems. I have struggled with single wrist action in that I tend to get too shut faced with it (I overdo the shaft lean at address at times)
From 175 I used to in between a 7 and a 6, now it is just a 7
) I like what TT says. To tout his expertise as without peer is admirable from a loyalty point of view, but I think it ultimately marginalizes Tom Tomasello in the eyes of many in light of our benefactor's (Yoda) vast knowledge. Lynn certainly does not have to defend his prowess, it literally speaks for itself. A true TGM savant is not married to a methodology, ultimately honoring Homer's intent. For TT it may have been a hit and miss kind of thing. I think he had an aversion to hitting, which I think has some real advantages. It is tough to be objective, most everybody picks favorites. I found Homer's reluctance to speak adamantly about what he preferred to be quite irritating! Now I appreciate why. Like 10-20-E? Then utilize 10-20-E!
)non automatic sweep releases can add a variable of inconsistency. As I age my hands will slow down like everything else (except for the growth of unsightly hair in my ears)Like everyone else I want something for nothing i.e. automatic snap releases! 
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