Tell them to imagine breaking down a door with the left shoulder, to feel as if hitting the ball with the back of the left shoulder.
Or tell them to speak with a student of Yoda, as he has this all figured out and can explain it in a manner that anyone who can walk and swing their arms can understand and repeat.
Kevin
__________________
I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
ALIGNMENT G.O.L.F.
Last edited by KevCarter : 08-14-2009 at 11:30 PM.
Sorry Bio, I should have added comment. The photo's aren't mine. I don't know what the lines represent.
I uploaded the photo sequence to illustrate that Ben Hogan's Hip often led his shoulders well into the Finish. Examples of Hogan were posted illustrating parallel Hips and Shoulders at Impact and I thought that those didn't represent Hogan entirely.
Yeah sure depends at which point in his career. After his accident his movement patterns were even better.
Ok I was thinking the photo's look a lot like Jeff's art work of lines and drawings.
How do you upload images from your computer on to this thread???
Last edited by bioengine : 08-15-2009 at 12:32 AM.
Tell them to imagine breaking down a door with the left shoulder, to feel as if hitting the ball with the back of the left shoulder.
Edz,
So how does this help someone create grounds forces?.
If someone tried to feel if they are hitting the back of the ball with their left shoulder.
Wouldn't this promote an over the top move?
Aren't you teaching them to fire their upper body first? Instead of engaging the lower body first.
Would this also cause a lateral slide as well?
Trying to put weight on your left foot doesn't creating ground forces.
Get some pressure plates or forces plates try it and see for yourself.
Last edited by bioengine : 08-15-2009 at 12:52 AM.
Wish that V.J. Trolio was in on the discussion. He has
really made a study of the forward move which I call
the Hogan Move. One of the things that V.J. says
is as follows:
On the right leg,knee, etc...As mentioned in the book
the head will go down but not forward. This will
increase the left knee flex quite a bit at the top..
some 15 to 20 degrees. There are forces that must be
used by the pivot. One being longitudinal force into
the ground, the other sheer forces. As you turn and
move left, placing the center of mass over the left
leg, the head will go down, the left knee will increase
flex, and a force will be felt into the ground under the
left foot. This is the longitudianal force. Once this
force is in the ground (martial arts calls this rooting)
then the instep of the right foot and the larger muscles
of the left leg and glute are used to create sheer forces
(forces that run parrallel to the surface of the ground)
for extreme rotational ability. With that said, make
sure you feelthe downward rooting into the ground.
The new DVD by Trolio, showing concepts in the "The Final
Missing Piece" book is very good. About $20.00, not expensive.
Wish that V.J. Trolio was in on the discussion. He has
really made a study of the forward move which I call
the Hogan Move. One of the things that V.J. says
is as follows:
On the right leg,knee, etc...As mentioned in the book
the head will go down but not forward. This will
increase the left knee flex quite a bit at the top..
some 15 to 20 degrees. There are forces that must be
used by the pivot. One being longitudinal force into
the ground, the other sheer forces. As you turn and
move left, placing the center of mass over the left
leg, the head will go down, the left knee will increase
flex, and a force will be felt into the ground under the
left foot. This is the longitudianal force. Once this
force is in the ground (martial arts calls this rooting)
then the instep of the right foot and the larger muscles
of the left leg and glute are used to create sheer forces
(forces that run parrallel to the surface of the ground)
for extreme rotational ability. With that said, make
sure you feelthe downward rooting into the ground.
The new DVD by Trolio, showing concepts in the "The Final
Missing Piece" book is very good. About $20.00, not expensive.
Good stuff dkerby. I really enjoy VJ's work as well!
Kevin
__________________
I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
Wish that V.J. Trolio was in on the discussion. He has
really made a study of the forward move which I call
the Hogan Move. One of the things that V.J. says
is as follows:
On the right leg,knee, etc...As mentioned in the book
the head will go down but not forward. This will
increase the left knee flex quite a bit at the top..
some 15 to 20 degrees. There are forces that must be
used by the pivot. One being longitudinal force into
the ground, the other sheer forces. As you turn and
move left, placing the center of mass over the left
leg, the head will go down, the left knee will increase
flex, and a force will be felt into the ground under the
left foot. This is the longitudianal force. Once this
force is in the ground (martial arts calls this rooting)
then the instep of the right foot and the larger muscles
of the left leg and glute are used to create sheer forces
(forces that run parrallel to the surface of the ground)
for extreme rotational ability. With that said, make
sure you feelthe downward rooting into the ground.
The new DVD by Trolio, showing concepts in the "The Final
Missing Piece" book is very good. About $20.00, not expensive.
dkerby,
Where do you think Trolio, got his information from. This isn't from his own research.
Although one miss guided information is the right foot and larger muscles of the left leg is what creates shear forces.
The shear forces aren't what create rotational talk. The center of mass moving along the target line pressing into to your left side and creating opposite ground reaction forces is what creates rotational torque. Continuing to press into your left side and creating ground reaction forces is what creates super stiffen or rooting.
A research paper on normal and shear forces was in a US golf magazine 18 years ago of the guy who discovered ground forces. These guys were one of the first to start golf research.
Ground forces are not only in golf they are applied in tennis baseball, any bat and ball sport, even the throwing action.
This is nothing new, ground forces has been around for a long time. Although it's only now that the golf industry is starting to implement golf biomechanics as part of teaching, now people are talking about ground reaction forces.
Again this is theory. We all know the theory, all that matters is how you train the body how to create ground forces. It's something you can physically apply in your swing.
Like geometry you have to train your geometry, same applies for ground forces you have to teach your body the right movement patterns to create ground forces.
I hope Trolio has the common decency to give the researchers where he sourced his information from a kick back on the videos he's cashing in on.
Last edited by bioengine : 08-16-2009 at 07:53 AM.
Bioengine,
I cannot speak for V.J. Trolio, but I do not think that
he ever insinuated that he descovered Rooting. Hd did
mention that Rooting was a martial art tecnique. Martial
Arts was in play long before Golf was invented.
I sence that the disagreement is when the center of mass
moves to the left. Your posts appear to indicated that
there is a gradual move to the left from the top of the
backswing. In Hogan's case the complete move was completed
prior to starting the downswing. Trlio did not say that
this was the way that it should or has to be done, but
the way that Hogan did it. A gradual shift of the center
of mass in the downswing followed by a hip turn is very difficult to execute.
This is getting very interesting. Thanks dkerby and Bioengine. The ground forces and their use is really starting to make sense. Ground forces help stabilize and assist/direct Hip Motion.
I have a ways to go. So I may not have described it correctly.
Bioengine,
I cannot speak for V.J. Trolio, but I do not think that
he ever insinuated that he descovered Rooting. Hd did
mention that Rooting was a martial art tecnique. Martial
Arts was in play long before Golf was invented.
I sence that the disagreement is when the center of mass
moves to the left. Your posts appear to indicated that
there is a gradual move to the left from the top of the
backswing. In Hogan's case the complete move was completed
prior to starting the downswing. Trlio did not say that
this was the way that it should or has to be done, but
the way that Hogan did it. A gradual shift of the center
of mass in the downswing followed by a hip turn is very difficult to execute.
Dkerby,
I hadn't elaborated when people start pressing forward occurs.
I didn't agree how he described the shear forces created hip rotational speed. Ground reaction forces create hip rotational torque and supper stiffen. This information wasn't quite right by trolio, he's on the right track although it's important if people are to learn about ground forces the information has to be accurate.
Trolio is selling videos and making money off someone else's research and hard work, this is true. Maybe he's not saying it's his work although they way he promotes his video comes across that way.
This is why I said I hope he has the common decency to give a kick back to the person he got his information from. Sorry if I offended anyone by saying this, although I feel it's just the right thing to do. If someone took one of Yoda's ideas and put it on video and sold it I would say the same thing.
I do agree with Trolio that hogan started pressing forward prior to completing his back swing.Although the move wasn't completed before the downswing started.
Super stiffen or rooting occurs just prior to impact and sustains until impact occurs. This happen so fast you can't see it nor on video can pick this up.
The hips actually counter torque and turn back away from the target a few degrees when you super stiffen . On video you won't see this occur. When the upper body catches up with the hips and impact occurs, the hips and upper body turn through to a full finish together.
People who have good ground forces and lower body mechanics they all start pressing forward prior completion of the backswing.
This is why I have said all along, you can't physically apply ground forces or this move on the practice fairway.
You need to train your body how to create this movement pattern.
Last edited by bioengine : 08-16-2009 at 01:46 PM.
Click on photo
Daryl,
In the first photo, the white is normal forces.
Yellow arrows are shear forces.
Orange is the ground reaction forces.
The black line is the direction of pressure or force.
From the photo's take notice all the way into impact how stable hogans left side is, barely moves. Hogan has an internal hip rotation.
Notice through out the swing hogans hips and shoulders are perpendicular to his spine.
In the last photo notice his hips and shoulders are square to each others. Hogan's hips and shoulder are perpendicular to his spine.
Hogan's knew how to create ground forces and super stiffen at impact (stabilize). This allowed hogan to fire his upper body and square up with his hips at impact.
Poetry in motion.
Last edited by bioengine : 08-16-2009 at 03:02 PM.
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