The first three Sections of the Downstroke are Start Down (8-7), Downstroke (8-8 ) and Release (8-9).
The Action you describe is the Right Arm Throw (10-20-B). It is a defined Stroke Pattern Component (#20) Variation used to Trigger the Release of the Power Package. Accordingly, it is employed at Release (8-9), not at the "beginning of the downswing" (8-7).
You do your man a disservice to continue to assert otherwise.
I'm doing a disservice.....you're the one with Tom Tomasello demonstrating it on video in the gallery of this site.
Lynn....you need to watch the videos of Tommy....eventhough he is throwing/karate chopping from the top the clubhead is not going into it's release orbit. I believe that's why we have seen a change in the release component in the 6th to 7th edition....where the change went from 10-24-B to 10-24-E (even on your first phone call to Homer....Homer told Tommy to concentrate on Longitudinal acceleration...it's lengthwise acceleration). It's an automatic release. Watch letter series #2 video..you can't be a good student if you don't watch the instruction!!!
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 12-01-2008 at 01:54 AM.
Yoda - In defense of DG's position, I cannot understand how you can infer that TT's "right arm throw" action should start with a 8-7 start down move. I can understand a pivot-driven swing starting with a 8-7 start down move and that the right arm throw is only used to trigger the release of the power package. However, TT specifically states that one must start the downswing with a "right arm throw action" that throws the clubshaft down-and-out onto the plane before the body moves. TT also specifically states that one should get the "feeling" of getting the clubhead past the left thigh before the body moves. Of course, that's not possible, but I cannot understand TT's intent - which is to make the body reactive to the throw, and that it should respond secondarily to the throw action - rather than preceding the throw action (ala Ben Hogan).
DG
My understanding of a karate chop action is an action where one drives the forearm down in such a manner that the wrist will uncock in the plane of the forearm motion, which means that the forearm movement must be in an ulnar direction. That's what the left forearm does during TT's right arm throw action where the clubshaft is thrown down-and-out onto the plane. However, the right forearm is 90 degrees opposed to the left arm flying wedge which means that the right forearm must move in a direction where the ventral aspect of the right forearm (front of the right forearm) is thrown down-and-out. In that sense, the motion of the right forearm cannot be correctly described as a karate chop action.
The first three Sections of the Downstroke are Start Down (8-7), Downstroke (8-8 ) and Release (8-9).
The Action you describe is the Right Arm Throw (10-20-B). It is a defined Stroke Pattern Component (#20) Variation used to Trigger the Release of the Power Package. Accordingly, it is employed at Release (8-9), not at the "beginning of the downswing" (8-7).
You do your man a disservice to continue to assert otherwise.
It's interesting that the first sentence of 10-20 of the 7th edition which is a change from the 6th and it reads...."Trigger Types are classified according to the point of origin of the action." That seems to be consistent with Tommy's explanation on section 20 FOR SWINGING. Five ways to start the downswing...which I believe is consistent with Longitudinal Acceleration. As Tommy said "one smooth motion"....
This is my last response until after next Saturday....have a good week.
It's interesting that the first sentence of 10-20 of the 7th edition which is a change from the 6th and it reads...."Trigger Types are classified according to the point of origin of the action." That seems to be consistent with Tommy's explanation on section 20 FOR SWINGING. Five ways to start the downswing...which I believe is consistent with Longitudinal Acceleration. As Tommy said "one smooth motion"....
"Point of Origin" in 10-20 refers to the originating point of the Action that Triggers the Release. In other words, the locushttp://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/locus of the Triggering Action. Is that locus the Hands (10-20-A)? The Right Arm (10-20-B)? The Right Shoulder (10-20-C)? The Left Wrist (10-20-E)? Or, for Automatic applications, the end of the Delivery Path (usually in Combination with either the Right Arm or Left Wrist / 10-20-D)? Or in some other Combination (11-20 lists some, but certainly not all)?
The quote emphatically does NOT apply to the three Release Points (Sweep, Random and Snap) or Release Types (Full Sweep, Random Sweep, Snap and Flip). While the Variations of the Trigger (Component #20) and the Release (Component #24) are ordered to reflect their parallel nature, the Release Points and Types are specific to the Release Component (11-24).
I continue to post in this thread because I believe there is value in refuting -- by differentiating with the facts and appropriate references -- the misinformation attributed to Tom Tomasello by his most ardent proponent.
I believe that Peter learnt TGM from TT, and I can sense TT's influence in his swing methodology.
The first photo series summarises Peter's swing methodological approach.
1) The idea is to get the clubhead down to the ball as fast as possible using the hands to throw the club.
2) The body reacts to the hand throw and does not initiate the downswing action with a pivot-drive.
3) The hand throw must throw the clubshaft down-and-out on plane - the plane of the uncocking left arm.
4) There will not be an early release (clubhead throwaway) if the throw is on-plane - see his photo series. One can see that Peter maintains his power package assembly intact in photo 2.
In a spirit of intellectual curiosity I have experimented with this technique, and I believe that it is a very viable method of swinging.
Consider the technique of swinging the hands down-and-out "on-plane".
One option is TT's right arm throw method. In that method one is using the right arm to throw the left arm/hand down-and-out. In the first part of the throw sequence, the right arm is adducted to the right side and the right elbow positionally approximates the right hip area (photo 2). This action drives the left arm/hand down-and-out on the plane (while keeping the left and right flying wedges intact). In the second half of the right arm throw action, the right elbow actively straightens applying pressure to PP#1 thus causing the left arm/hand to continue its down-and-out movement. Eventually PA#2 releases by centrifugal action and finally PA#3 releases automatically (as Peter describes in his tennis raquet sequence).
From my perspective, there is potential danger to throwing the left arm/hand down using this "right arm throw" technique. If one is driving the left arm/hand down-and-out onto the plane using a right elbow straightening action, then it is possible for the active right arm thrust to i) over-accelerate the left arm/hand too fast into impact and providing insufficient time for the complete passive release of PA#2 and PA#3; or ii) the right arm thrust may produce too much push-pressure at PP#3 thus causing the clubshaft to be driven forward in a hitting action. That will interfere with the centrifugal release of PA#2.
I think that a better method of throwing the left arm/hand down-and-out on plane is to simply pull the left arm down-and-out onto the plane while aiming one's hands at the ball (aiming point). This allows for a passive centrifugal release of PA#2 and a natural/automatic release of PA#3 without any interfence by the right arm/hand applying push-pressure at PP#1 or PP#3. In this method, the right arm/forearm/hand's only contribution will be to i) apply extensor action throughout the swing; ii) sense clubhead lag at PP#3; iii) maintain the clubshaft on-plane through the magic of the right forearm. The right arm will be not be used to power the downswing left arm/hand throw action.
This might be the difference between a "hand motion" controlled pivot and a "hands sensation" controlled pivot...no...those terms are not in the book but ...
The book and TGM tend to focus on learning through sensing lag pressure...once sensed the pivot can direct the hands along a delivery path appropriate for the shot. The book mentions taking sufficient time at "top" to plot the required path for dwonswing.
But this system requires time for lag sensation to be experienced at loading...brain then computes required delivery path...then action taken.
What would happen if the brain automatically moved the hands along a preprogrammed delivery path...without any conscious waiting for lag pressure.
To a player it might feel like "just moving the hands"...
maybe?? more fuel to the fire... and either way - I suspect that the body moves first anyway!
I'm doing a disservice.....you're the one with Tom Tomasello demonstrating it on video in the gallery of this site.
Lynn....you need to watch the videos of Tommy....eventhough he is throwing/karate chopping from the top the clubhead is not going into it's release orbit. I believe that's why we have seen a change in the release component in the 6th to 7th edition....where the change went from 10-24-B to 10-24-E (even on your first phone call to Homer....Homer told Tommy to concentrate on Longitudinal acceleration...it's lengthwise acceleration). It's an automatic release. Watch letter series #2 video..you can't be a good student if you don't watch the instruction!!!
DG,
Your post has about as many confused concepts as it does lines, and I refuse to waste my time correcting them. I will, however, expose (and correct) the most egregious error relevant to this thread.
The Basic Stroke Patterns (12-1-0 / Drive [Radial] Loading and 12-2-0 / Drag [Longitudinal] Loading) were introduced with the 4th Editon. The Right Arm Throw (10-20-B) was the designated Release Trigger (Component #20) for Drive Loading and the Left Wrist Throw (10-20-E) was the designated Variation for Drag Loading. THAT HAS NOT CHANGED! Not from the 4th to the 5th editions. Not from the 5th to the 6th editions. And certainly not from the 6th to the 7th editions.
In fact, in ALL the Stroke Patterns of ALL seven editions, NEVER ONCE has the Right Arm Throw been associated with Longitudinal Loading. The truth is that it has ALWAYS been associated with DRIVE Loading.
DG, your continued blatant disregard for The Golfing Machine as written by Homer Kelley and studied by Authorized Instructors and interested amateurs around the world is inconsistent with the mission of this website. Given your 'time in grade', to say that I am disappointed is an understatement. If these outrageous (and seemingly deliberate) inaccuracies continue, my only recourse will be to limit your posts to a dedicated thread prefaced by my own Caveat Emptor warning.
Your post has about as many confused concepts as it does lines, and I refuse to waste my time correcting them. I will, however, expose (and correct) the most egregious error relevant to this thread.
The Basic Stroke Patterns (12-1-0 / Drive [Radial] Loading and 12-2-0 / Drag [Longitudinal] Loading) were introduced with the 4th Editon. The Right Arm Throw (10-20-B) was the designated Release Trigger (Component #20) for Drive Loading and the Left Wrist Throw (10-20-E) was the designated Variation for Drag Loading. THAT HAS NOT CHANGED! Not from the 4th to the 5th editions. Not from the 5th to the 6th editions. And certainly not from the 6th to the 7th editions.
In fact, in ALL the Stroke Patterns of ALL seven editions, NEVER ONCE has the Right Arm Throw been associated with Longitudinal Loading. The truth is that it has ALWAYS been associated with DRIVE Loading.
DG, your continued blatant disregard for The Golfing Machine as written by Homer Kelley and studied by Authorized Instructors and interested amateurs around the world is inconsistent with the mission of this website. Given your 'time in grade', to say that I am disappointed is an understatement. If these outrageous (and seemingly deliberate) inaccuracies continue, my only recourse will be to limit your posts to a dedicated thread prefaced by my own Caveat Emptor warning.
Wow....I wish I could say more...but this is your website and I'm you sure you would delete my response. Did you and Tommy have a falling out. I can't believe you were friends at the end.
Your post has about as many confused concepts as it does lines, and I refuse to waste my time correcting them. I will, however, expose (and correct) the most egregious error relevant to this thread.
The Basic Stroke Patterns (12-1-0 / Drive [Radial] Loading and 12-2-0 / Drag [Longitudinal] Loading) were introduced with the 4th Editon. The Right Arm Throw (10-20-B) was the designated Release Trigger (Component #20) for Drive Loading and the Left Wrist Throw (10-20-E) was the designated Variation for Drag Loading. THAT HAS NOT CHANGED! Not from the 4th to the 5th editions. Not from the 5th to the 6th editions. And certainly not from the 6th to the 7th editions.
In fact, in ALL the Stroke Patterns of ALL seven editions, NEVER ONCE has the Right Arm Throw been associated with Longitudinal Loading. The truth is that it has ALWAYS been associated with DRIVE Loading.
DG, your continued blatant disregard for The Golfing Machine as written by Homer Kelley and studied by Authorized Instructors and interested amateurs around the world is inconsistent with the mission of this website. Given your 'time in grade', to say that I am disappointed is an understatement. If these outrageous (and seemingly deliberate) inaccuracies continue, my only recourse will be to limit your posts to a dedicated thread prefaced by my own Caveat Emptor warning.
Wow....I wish I could say more...but this is your website and I'm you sure you would delete my response. Did you and Tommy have a falling out. I can't believe you were friends at the end.
Even before Tommy shook Homer's hand....he had 48 hours worth of phone conversations on audio tape. Wow....must have been a wealth of knowledge in those 48 hours let alone the 8 12 hour days that he spent with Homer in his master class that he also caught on audio tape. I really don't know how Tommy could've have gone wrong. And even Golf Illustrated interviewed him...something good must have been happening in those Swinging, Hitting and Advanced schools. I'll let the members of this forum be the judge. Oh, btw, a number of the top University Golf Coachs studied with Tommy at his Myrtle Beach studio....even sent complementry notes after their instruction. Go figure....
GI:What happens to the shots of a player who executes these moves?
Tomasello: The player will immediately hit the ball higher and straighter, and substantially longer. The flight pattern will be dead straight to its apex, with the ball falling a touch left or drawing fractionally as it descends.
Imagine that...surely none of us want that.
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 12-01-2008 at 09:13 PM.
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