The Pivot is a free Motion, but it nevertheless demands stability. That stability is provided by the Feet and Knees (at its base) and by the Pivot Center (fixed at its top). At the player's option, the Pivot Center can be either the Head or the 'point between the Shoulders.'
After careful consideration, Homer Kelley, author of The Golfing Machine, recommended the Head Pivot Center. Others prefer the 'point between the shoulders.'
With either Pivot Center, the top of the Pivot is stable. By definition.
Now let's think:
The spine connects the Head and Hips. The Hips move laterally -- this is the Weight Shift -- in both the Backstroke and the Downstroke. As the Hips move back and through, so does the spine. And because the top of the spine is attached to the Fixed Pivot Center, its bottom must move away from the Target in the Backstroke and towards the Target in the Downstoke.
It is strange that many who preach as gospel Downstroke 'Axis Tilt' fail to understand Backstroke Axis Tilt.
K so we have a few pics posted of various players....
All with different Strokes BTW....
I don't know EXACTLY where these people's spines are so I would only be guessing...
Snead's could very well be where you've drawn it...
Although this is only one picture of him taking one shot.....and also only one player throughout a mass history of great players....if you're right tho it would prove that it CAN work for people.....I know that already tho....it wouldn't be a problem with me.
...
To me, I think your spine (the one beside Snead is you right Mathew?) is more to the right than where you've drawn it tho...you can see the indent in your back......no?
Adam Scott....I dunno.....isn't that pic the one that's edited from the one where he was hitting on an upslope?
Regardless, to me, his head is slightly to the right of the red line (given, only a small amount...to me)...and as for his spine....I dunno lots about spines....but that doesn't look right to me. (where you've drawn it) Anyway tho I'm no expert on spines and this picture may not be a good one to analyze anyway.
And....regardless of all THAT....I don't think Scott is a guy who keeps his head Stationary anyway (and I don't think keeps it in the center of his feet either)....
Maybe if we found pics of him with a short iron it would show more of a "tripod".....maybe....
Sigh...
Anyone got a wall I could bang my head against....
Yes that is where exactly where Sneads spine is.
Yes that is precisely where my spine is.
I don't think you can deny it birdie - that is where the spine goes.
Your definition of a reverse pivot is a spine tilting away from the target. Your assumption was that concentrating on a stationary head causes a reverse pivot. I said that the reverse pivot is a fallacious term because NOTHING is going in reverse.
So basically what your saying is that Adam Scott, Jack Nicklaus, Ben Hogan, Sam Snead, Moe Norman, Harry Vardon, Bobby Jones and pretty much every great player in history has a 'reverse pivot'. Ok .....
Snead uses a standard anchor thats why the spine tilts to the right. As leg straighten to the direction of the turn = tilt towards that direction .
Question 1;
A reverse pivot is keeping most of the weight in front feet during the back swing. But does it qualify as a reverse pivot? How does this "reverse pivot " by sam snead in anyway benificial or Not benificial to a swing since, the Pivot reacts to the path of the hands.
Another question:
I also notice that if the head is not right at the center of the feet but more of center of the shoulder ( not center), there is a tendency to bob down slightly during downswing. AlA Ben Hogan etc. You tend to bob down a touch. Is my observation correct? I think the reason Homer Kelly prefer center of the feet.
Matthew .. thanks for making the point and you have to stick the tapes on the back to show it . I salute you in the spirit of letting everybody learn golf. The Golfing Machine way.
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God :God is love.
Latest incubator: Finally appreciate why Hogan wrote 19 pages on GRIP. I bet he could write another 40 pages.
They are not a sequence - but the two frames I took with my digital camera seperately on self timer. I could of easily walked into a different spot, I may of put the camera down at a slightly different angle, I may of swayed... who knows....
The intention is to only show the position of the spine relative to the hip action.
"The [Stationary] Post [player's Head] can turn (pivot) but it does not Sway or Bob."
Thank you very much Yoda!
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"In my experience, if you stay with the essentials you WILL build a repeatable swing undoubtedly. If you can master the Imperatives you have a champion" (Vikram).
The reason you can't sustain the lag is because you are so eager to make the club move fast (a reaction to the intent of "hitting it far"). So on a full shot you throw it away too early, which doesn't happen for your short chip. (bts)
It looks like Adam is hitting a tee shot so he is not likely contending with an upslope. The head seems to be more rotated than laterally away from the center-line.
What is Homer's view on rotating the head? Necessary? Helpful? Adds another variable? (this question is posed to anyone)
Matt
NM my bad....
I thought it was a pic that was edited from GDigest's website but I just checked and it's the same on their website.
I dunno Homer's view on rotating the head but as far as I know everyone does it.
As far as how much this affects how someone's pivot looks...I don't know.
I dunno Homer's view on rotating the head but as far as I know everyone does it.
Before Yoda clarified above I thought stationary head meant that one should not rotate it. Most golfers would likely have extreme difficulty with a head that does not turn whatsoever on the backswing.
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"In my experience, if you stay with the essentials you WILL build a repeatable swing undoubtedly. If you can master the Imperatives you have a champion" (Vikram).
The reason you can't sustain the lag is because you are so eager to make the club move fast (a reaction to the intent of "hitting it far"). So on a full shot you throw it away too early, which doesn't happen for your short chip. (bts)
The Pivot is a free Motion, but it nevertheless demands stability. That stability is provided by the Feet and Knees (at its base) and by the Pivot Center (fixed at its top). At the player's option, the Pivot Center can be either the Head or the 'point between the Shoulders.'
After careful consideration, Homer Kelley, author of The Golfing Machine, recommended the Head Pivot Center. Others prefer the 'point between the shoulders.'
With either Pivot Center, the top of the Pivot is stable. By definition.
Cool cool. And no doubt Homer did consider very carefully.
BTW I realize there is seemingly a large void between "Homer Kelly" and "others"....but that's ok.
To me, who said what is not so much the determining factor.
Quote:
Now let's think:
The spine connects the Head and Hips. The Hips move laterally -- this is the Weight Shift -- in both the Backstroke and the Downstroke. As the Hips move back and through, so does the spine. And because the top of the spine is attached to the Fixed Pivot Center, its bottom must move away from the Target in the Backstroke and towards the Target in the Downstoke.
So who is a model of this? Monty? (correct me if I'm wrong...and I'm honestly not trying to be cocky BTW)
Works for Monty....and Freddie Couples....and Sergio (I think)....
All I know is that not everyone pivots like that....
And that a lot of very good golfers (seemingly the majority of the most successful golfers....including some of the best ballstrikers) do not keep their head Stationary. (and/or Stationary between the feet)
From "Joe blow" PGA Tour Player (I say "Joe blow" but really these guys are among the best 150 or so players in the world) to some of the best ballstrikers in history even...
I'm not gonna make a list but I think it's fairly obvious if you look at a bunch of pictures of the best players and best ballstrikers...
And I don't want to say that this is the sole reason why these players have risen to the top.....or that no one does the "tripod" (although it does seem to me that less do)....but hey.......
.....does this mean these players could be/could have been better then? I don't know....
Quote:
It is strange that many who preach as gospel Downstroke 'Axis Tilt' fail to understand Backstroke Axis Tilt.
Such is the power of misconception.
I may have missed something...not sure....anyway....
I can't speak for anyone else really....but I dunno that it's so much of a misconception as to how it works...(although I could be wrong)...
More as to how well it works. (as far as every golfer, or even the majority of golfers, is concerned)
Last edited by birdie_man : 11-08-2006 at 03:30 PM.
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