Couple of comments:
1 I do not believe the "practical range" of fore and aft ball positioning for any given club is "wide" enough to trigger these other concerns.
2. please examine Hogan's atance/ball position drawings-page 125, Five Lessons. I can't copy the drawing.
Pay particular attention to:
He moves the ball back for each club by narrowing his stance and opening his stance.
He effectivly rotates his plane line and maintains his target line when he op-ens his stance.
Sugestion - I believe HK has included this info- maybe in bits and pieces- As we find those bits and pieces we should include them here.
HB
Couple of comments:
1 I do not believe the "practical range" of fore and aft ball positioning for any given club is "wide" enough to trigger these other concerns.
2. please examine Hogan's atance/ball position drawings-page 125, Five Lessons. I can't copy the drawing.
Pay particular attention to:
He moves the ball back for each club by narrowing his stance and opening his stance.
He effectivly rotates his plane line and maintains his target line when he op-ens his stance.
Sugestion - I believe HK has included this info- maybe in bits and pieces- As we find those bits and pieces we should include them here.
HB
Does the ball move back because he narrows his Stance?
Did the Ball Move aft of Low-Point? Low Point is adjustable.
Narrowing the stance with his method, will cause the right shoulder to move Forward. Its the Right Forearm Angle of Approach. Longer Clubs cause the Right Shoulder to be rotated more at Impact relative to shorter clubs. So, using his method, the release point and aiming point is similar for different length clubs. Notice that at Impact, shorter clubs have Right Forearms that are more Vertical. Therefore, the Right Forearm Wedge is becoming in-line at a much faster rate.
Opening and closing your stance will affect Hip Action. It doesn't cause a plane line rotation unless you align your shoulders to your stance after the change. Notice that Hogan used a Closed Stance while Driving but his shoulders and Swing remained squarish to the Target.
Hey we got 55 posts in before needing to stop to clarify something... not bad. I hope we didnt lose BerntR gonna need him and HB , I know we set aside issues they have with the centres . We can come back to it though with drawings that address that specific issue. Its just not necessary to clarify that issue IMO to discuss the implications of the Geometry of the Circles orbit to ball response given plane and ball location, face angle , hinge action changes. Suffice it to say there is a constant centre and a straight Radius and therefor a circular orbit. Unhuman though this might be... It was a model a mode of examination that Homer had available to him at his time of writing . Much can be deduced from it.
D, that wasnt a jack. Do you want to pause to discuss your post #49 more or just leave it for now? I see some need for friendly debate / discussion coming on some concepts very central to shot shaping.
Bear we're heading towards Hogans stance / ball diagram from Five Lessons dont you worry. But we need to draw as much of the geometry as is possible first , so we're speaking the same language . It gets a little ..... deep in a Homerian way. We might need audio tape transcriptions from the GSEM classes for clarification. Even then it might not come clear. TBD.
Hey we got 55 posts in before needing to stop to clarify something... not bad. I hope we didnt lose BerntR gonna need him and HB , I know we set aside issues they have with the centres . We can come back to it though with drawings that address that specific issue. Its just not necessary to clarify that issue IMO to discuss the implications of the Geometry of the Circles orbit to ball response given plane and ball location, face angle , hinge action changes. Suffice it to say there is a constant centre and a straight Radius and therefor a circular orbit. Unhuman though this might be... It was a model a mode of examination that Homer had available to him at his time of writing . Much can be deduced from it.
D, that wasnt a jack. Do you want to pause to discuss your post #49 more or just leave it for now? I see some need for friendly debate / discussion coming on some concepts very central to shot shaping.
Bear we're heading towards Hogans stance / ball diagram from Five Lessons dont you worry. But we need to draw as much of the geometry as is possible first , so we're speaking the same language . It gets a little ..... deep in a Homerian way. We might need audio tape transcriptions from the GSEM classes for clarification. Even then it might not come clear. TBD.
If this is not really the place for an Aim Point discussion, or the practical application of the Geometry of the Circle, just pm me and I will post these questions on my thread and let the adults alone thinking deep geometrical thoughts.
This is interesting and important stuff.
ICT
__________________
HP, grant me the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Progress and not perfection is the goal every day!
Does the ball move back because he narrows his Stance?
Did the Ball Move aft of Low-Point? Low Point is adjustable.
Narrowing the stance with his method, will cause the right shoulder to move Forward. Its the Right Forearm Angle of Approach. Longer Clubs cause the Right Shoulder to be rotated more at Impact relative to shorter clubs. So, using his method, the release point and aiming point is similar for different length clubs. Notice that at Impact, shorter clubs have Right Forearms that are more Vertical. Therefore, the Right Forearm Wedge is becoming in-line at a much faster rate.
Opening and closing your stance will affect Hip Action. It doesn't cause a plane line rotation unless you align your shoulders to your stance after the change. Notice that Hogan used a Closed Stance while Driving but his shoulders and Swing remained squarish to the Target.
Another way of thinking of the very common wedge shot , chip shot stance : Stance line open, hips open , weight left , hands ahead .........Its an impact fix /address. You have minimized moving parts, weight shifts for simplicity , consistency . The Plane Line could still point anywhere. A quarterback can be running left and throw to his right! The stance line here is not an indicator of plane line.
Sorta like how the common putter grip runs through the palm of the left hand and thereby zeroes #3 angle , the travel associated with all hinge actions thereby taking on the travel associated with Vertical Hinging , zereoing #3 power accumulator etc. It deadens the send to the ball somewhat making distance regulation easier. Normally the putter is the shortest lever in the bag too. For a reason.
The physics of it is lost on us golfers but through a collective trial and error process, if you will, we land on things that are adopted by most. They become standards without us knowing the reasoning, the physics behind it. And of course you do always have exceptions, modifications etc. Guys who do other things with great results ... but always with the physics of their procedures showing itself ....
I have to go fast to catch up to you guys ... want to nail the book quotes, support it with drawings.... leave no room for broken telephone ..
Quote:
CHAPTER 2 STATEMENT OF PRINCIPLE continued
PAGE 31
PREPARATIONS
2-J-2 INSIDE-OUT IMPACT Because the Inclined Plane is inclined, the Downstroke arc of the Clubhead path on this Inclined Plane moves down-and-out form inside the Plane Line until it reaches its lowest point (See sketches in 2-C) after which it moves up-and-in back inside the Plane Line. So if Impact occurs before the low point of the arc is reached it is an inside-out Impact – or hit- and the Clubhead will travel outward and downward after Impact. Though it is an “inside-out” Impact it is not an “inside-out” Stroke unless the Plane Line crosses the Line of Flight as depicted in photo 10-5-E.
If Impact occurs beyond the low point the Clubhead travel is up-and-back inside the Plane Line and is an outside-in Impact but not an outside-in Stroke unless the Plane Line crosses the Line of Flight as depicted in 10-5-D.
Enter what Lynn calls "the problem".... most golfers dont see this inside -out impact for balls played back of low point. From their perspective , the golfers view in Startup they try to cover the plane line with their clubhead (Steering) and in Start down they try to get over to the plane line to attack the back in a more linear fashion. They go out , over top of the plane in startdown to attack the ball straight on ... along the low point plane line / base line.
Need a drawing from the players perspective of the circular orbit while the clubhead is say two feet away from the ball along the arc of approach with the face sqaure to the arc (lets assume angled hinging for now) and another a second face covering the target line (and it will appear to be directly over the plane line given the golfers perspective while it isnt so when viewed from a DTL perspective) and lets square this second face to the plane line. The arc of approach will appear curved to a degree in accordance to the plane angle what do we want elbow ... lets make it a lower one to accentuate the curved nature of the arc for illustrative purposes .... not to scale . Scale makes all this stuff look insignificant interestingly.... when it isnt , not at all. Note how the Steered face is taking a higher plane angle , nearly vertical when viewed DTL , not quite vertical as its planed though the golfers eyes.
Remember extension , low to the ground , square to square . Thats the triad of Steering .
Quote:
3-F-7-A STEERING is the Number One malfunction – The Bent Left Wrist and Clubhead Throwaway. Any or all of the following faults during Impact may need to be adjusted out – holding:
1. the Clubface square to the Target Line
2. the Clubhead on Target Line
3. the Clubhead on a level or upward path
A very successful anti-steering therapy is an exaggerated “inside-out” Cut Shot per 10-5-E
Its born of false logic! These drawings are trying to show the correct path of the clubhead and the face angle.
How much movement of the ball back of low point can there be before these "problems" occur? Too much, and the player will mentally move the low point back and wreck their Impact Alignments.
There's a reason why some the best players in history played the ball in one location.
How much movement of the ball back of low point can there be before these "problems" occur? Too much, and the player will mentally move the low point back and wreck their Impact Alignments.
There's a reason why some the best players in history played the ball in one location.
True, but most of this is about uphill and downhill lies where there is valuable application.
I wonder if players who widen their Stance like Hogan use one Ball Location more than players who maintain a certain stance width for all clubs?
How much movement of the ball back of low point can there be before these "problems" occur? Too much, and the player will mentally move the low point back and wreck their Impact Alignments.
There's a reason why some the best players in history played the ball in one location.
K I got to back .... dont want to leave anything behind when possible.
MJ I know you know this stuff but for the benefit of others, the "problem" as Lynn refers to it in his power point presentation to his certified instructors (i believe) is Steering the attempt to steer the clubhead straght line away or towards the ball with the face square to the ball. Add an attempt to keep the clubhead "low to the ground" and you have all three forms of Steering.
The "problem" is perceptual , in our dismay we start to think about solutions to this crazy arse game and we land on a the more familiar to us linear approach . Like pool or whatever. We try to achieve , to the extent we actually can, a linear Delivery Path of the Clubhead with a square face (Vertical Hinging) Ill try and draw all this.
........... Major aside here... this geometry to the extent it can actually be manipulated has an effect of the ball response. The physics of it can not be denied. Usually its a terrible set of impact dynamics for a tee shot (watch any hackers lame duck tee ball, leaving cross line slice aside for now). But useful for certain shots perhaps (the same hacker might have a decent high soft wedge shot if he grooves it). His straight back , straight through putting may be quite good actually.
Daryl do you have drawing number 2-C-3 #3 Linear Force -The Lob Shot on hand?
if so can you post it upside down from the player perspective.
Hybrid Mode
