Are you suggesting that a player using a Hitter's Angle of Approach procedure with Top alignments like the King in your pictures PRETURN HIS HIPS as far as illustrated in these pictures before the backstroke motion (Start Up) starts?
Sure....Eddie Cox has developed something along these lines I believe to be a FANTASTIC HITTING pattern....you pre-turn the hips in an amount to approximate the angle of approach...which is basically approximated by your on plane right forearm at address...so in your LOOK LOOK LOOK process you are observing with the pre-turn...the line from your left knee to right hip joint is approximately parallel to the angle of approach 2-J-3 style on the ground....this 3-D imaginary line approximates the direction of your backstroke hand path....those King lines are the MODEL TOP for this particular pattern (less "visually flat left wrist" though ...more geometrically flat). But if you look at the King...he achieved these alignments more in dynamic fashion...but I think it would be much easier with the pre-turn to establish these lines at address...that's where you is going...so why not start there...then all of your path/delivery is right there for you to LOOK LOOK LOOK at...you have an approximation of "this is the path my hands must travel on". GOOD STUFF....
I find Standard Hip Action to be conducive of a Shoulder Turn Takeaway. That "perceptible slackness in the Hip and Shoulder relationship", which Lynn referred to above, can IMO easily cause the Hands to move back too low and too much inside.
That's not saying that you cannot produce wonderful Swings with Standard Hip Action. And I agree that the slackness in the Hip/Shoulder relationship seems to fit the Swinger's pattern, particularly the Dragging Clubhead Takeaway. But much more difficult to master than Delayed Hip Action.
Originally Posted by Par71
At Address or at Impact Fix (which, of course, could be one and the same if you're using Impact Address)?
Options of course...but more of an adjusted address look...if you keep your arms soft and move your body around you'll note the change in the handle location....I'd say preturn the right hip and actually pre-straighten the right knee some too...should pull the handle to the point where your hands look more address attitude than fix.
One thing to note on the angle of approach, hitting ARBITRARILY requires 10-5-e closed plane line the listing for the angle of approach procedure is the hitting basic pattern. Also par71s questions are very well pointed, AP has quite a bit of hip turn there and is going on to end.....wouldn't this require a switch to an arc of approach procedure....
Also I would agree with you par71 in that delayed hip action will help the golfer get up the plane better versus a tendency to drag it under(shoulder turn takeaway) with standard hip action along with my previous reasons I believe this to be why he recommended delayed hip action for the swingers basic pattern
Definition of arbitrary
Based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.
(of power or a ruling body) Unrestrained and autocratic in the use of authority.
In other words it may require it if thats what it takes to accomplish it but it does not absolutely require a closed plane line which is very minimal anyway
It's August 1970, I get to the course early for the first round of the PGA Championship. The range only has a handful of players with two of them on the far right side. Back when, there were no ropes, just respectful fans. I sit down in the grass not more than 15 feet behind the two players who happen to be Gary Player and Arnold Palmer. Player is incessantly peppering Palmer with questions about the grip and Palmer grunts short, inaudible answers, appearing to be annoyed. He is taking giant beaver pelt divots and showering me with dirt and grass as there's a wind out of the West. Back then, of course, I didn't know Hitting from Swinging, but I remember clearly this muscular whirling dervish raking the balls with his massive shoulders - a veritable human g-machine centrifuge. Looking back 41 yrs later, I know I was watching a Swinger.
It's August 1970, I get to the course early for the first round of the PGA Championship. The range only has a handful of players with two of them on the far right side. Back when, there were no ropes, just respectful fans. I sit down in the grass not more than 15 feet behind the two players who happen to be Gary Player and Arnold Palmer. Player is incessantly peppering Palmer with questions about the grip and Palmer grunts short, inaudible answers, appearing to be annoyed. He is taking giant beaver pelt divots and showering me with dirt and grass as there's a wind out of the West. Back then, of course, I didn't know Hitting from Swinging, but I remember clearly this muscular whirling dervish raking the balls with his massive shoulders - a veritable human g-machine centrifuge. Looking back 41 yrs later, I know I was watching a Swinger.
According to Tom Tomasello Standard Hip Action was suppose to be the 10-15 Hip Action for both the swinging and hitting patterns for the 7th edition. Tom assembled a complete 7th edition with Homer's notes. It appears Joe Daniels did the same thing. Tom had that revision completed by the late 80's. Tom instructed his students to change 10-15-B to 10-15-A in the book. When I studied with Tommy, I came to the lessons with delayed hip action, by the time I left (I have it on audio tape)I was learning standard hip action. Trust me, I'm definitely clearing my right hip, combined with the magic of the right forearm action, I have a very stable and reliable backswing.
I use Standard Hip Action for both swinging and hitting with equally good results. I have no desire to go back to delayed hip action. You have to go with what works, I believe Homer would be in agreement.
Great exchange going on in this thread.
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 12-02-2011 at 10:13 PM.
Options of course...but more of an adjusted address look...if you keep your arms soft and move your body around you'll note the change in the handle location....I'd say preturn the right hip and actually pre-straighten the right knee some too...should pull the handle to the point where your hands look more address attitude than fix.
I think I understand you now, 12pb:
You do not try to fix in your mind the (original) Right Forearm Angle of Approach at Impact Fix (or at Address before preturning the Hips) and then preturn the Hips until the line between your Left Knee and your Right Hip becomes parallel to that (remembered) angle.
Instead, you pre-turn the Hips at Adjusted Address (and also pre-straighten the Right Knee) until the line from the Left Knee to the Right Hip is parallel to the Right Forearm Angle of Approach that results from that preturn. So you can simply check these alignments by looking down after the preturn.
You do not try to fix in your mind the (original) Right Forearm Angle of Approach at Impact Fix (or at Address before preturning the Hips) and then preturn the Hips until the line between your Left Knee and your Right Hip becomes parallel to that (remembered) angle.
Instead, you pre-turn the Hips at Adjusted Address (and also pre-straighten the Right Knee) until the line from the Left Knee to the Right Hip is parallel to the Right Forearm Angle of Approach that results from that preturn. So you can simply check these alignments by looking down after the preturn.
YES SIR....
Pre-turn and pre-straighten to allow the abruptly inward hand path as dictated by the AOA...
AOA...10-5-E....inward.....people have made a point that your hands can go too low and underplane...so how do you "adjust" to this inward direction? You are seeing the model...in my mind...
AP's hands are IN but his clubhead is in and UP...how is this accomplished? Sweetspot up and deep hands below shoulder line and deep?
1. Palmer had a MASSIVE amount of hip turn (facilitated by an almost hyper extended right knee and bent left knee) allowing his right shoulder and right hip to reach deeeeep. BUT...why not underplane?
2. The inward component is from the TURNING PIVOT
3. The upward component is from the loading of the right elbow...Palmer elevated the club by bending his right elbow (as well as fanning and retracting it...more inward componet)
4. More upward from the LENGTHENING of his entire right side...right shoulder deep and high ...right hip deep and high...right leg long.....left side compressed....also allowing a centered motion with the AOA geometry...his right shoulder is not really "flat to the plane"...it is more UP AND DEEP to the plane...adjusted 10-5-E AOA plane...more in and steeper
He IS NOT getting up by LIFTING...he is not raising his right humerus bone off his body....this allows his hands and the primary lever assembly to stay BELOW his right shoulder...he can immediately LAUNCH the lever assemblies and wedge structure down AND OUT on plane....his right shoulder is ON TOP of the left arm being the upper leg of the primary lever...providing the initial acceleration and then the LAUNCHING PAD
You'll note if you put yourself in a top position (minus the archy left wrist) like Palmer with one of them ninja sticks or a dowel on the ground aproximating the AOA...your LEFT ARM will also be approximately parallel to the AOA at top...right shoulder and hip joints deep and high...no elevating the club by lifting the arms off the rib cage...upward from the loading of the right elbow..no right wrist cock disrupting the wedges...upward from a long and deep right side..reaching BACK AND STRIVING FOR HEIGHT....
Note the height of the right shoulders and shoulder slant difference....this is basically the difference between pitch and punch elbow and what it does to the rate that you achieve your axis tilt...
Have a look at the swing at the 1:30 mark...BEAUTIFUL...
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Last edited by 12 piece bucket : 12-03-2011 at 08:47 AM.
Great analysis Bucket, difficult to do with Arnie because he never seemed to swing it the same way twice in a row! Mr. Palmer never tried to be pretty, it was all about playing the game and posting up a number...
Palmer always looked like he was "holding off" that driver, afraid of the hook. Possibly because he was a little under plane? A little under like Stricker, but he just plays for the draw and let's her buck!
I haven't studied much footage of Mr. Player, but his swing sure looked sweet in that video. Very under rated...
Really enjoying this thread!
Kevin
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