Yup divergent vectors, pivot goes back and forth while the hands go up and down. They net out on plane ideally under the direction of the brain through the senses in the hands. Hands to Pivot. We do this sort of thing all the time actually, in our non golf motions. Turn and grab something at the same time with divergent vectors. We're wired to do this already. Lynn normally pats his head and rubs his stomach at the same time while discussing this subject.
Anyways the hammering thing is the plane of the left hand wrist cock and uncock, the vertical plane of the LFFW. What you are doing, assuming you're not super late Snap Release already, is a Non Automatic Sweep Release (10-24-B) with a Left Wrist Throw (10-20-E). Which is exactly what is recommended in the Basic Pattern for Swinging in 12-2-0. If your liking it Im guessing that you have already noticed the added zip to your shots that the Throw brings. But it isnt necessarily the end of the exercise. Yes there is more good news for G.O.L.F 'rs. More zip to be found.
Read 6-P-0 Non Automatic Release for some great great stuff including "let the motion make the shot" etc.
Then read 6-R-0 Automatic Release. " When the selected Non Automatic Stroke Pattern is mastered it can be pushed on to maximum Delay and become an Automatic Release..."
Note the "maximum Delay" as in maximum Power via a small pulley wheel from the Endless Belt analogy. So we start with Downswing blackout then add a Non Automatic Throw with a Random Sweep Release and then start to build upon it through training perhaps even acquiring an Automatic Snap Release. Although you can play fine, fine golf without getting all the way there. Many majors have been one with a Random Sweep Release. Watson almost won the most remarkable major of all time last year for instance with his Random Sweep. Training in this manner will bring precision to your Release and its Release Point which will add some shot making ability.
Although you are Swinging you might have read Lukes recent posts about a student of his who has seen his clubhead speed go through the roof while working on this stuff. Effortless power, so to speak, especially since more effort often begets a larger pulley wheel and approaches "Over Acceleration, the Menace that stalks all Lag and Drag". Lots to think about here in easy power land.
You'll probably need some guidance while on this journey. You're good with video, you could get Ted Fort or Jeff Hull to take a look at things as you go along. Im going to.
Yup divergent vectors, pivot goes back and forth while the hands go up and down.
Hmm? What about a non-Pivot Stroke?
If I may ask one more question:
If the Hands go up and down, and the Pivot goes back and forth, then are the Hands monitoring both paths simultaneously?
If I may ask one more question:
Isn't Down-plane a Path?
If I may ask one more question. I don't want to be annoying.
If my hands go up and down and my Pivot goes back and forth, then if they precisely move 1" at a time then their path will be down and out at a 45 degree angle to the ground. That's not the question. The question is, If my Pivot is moving back and Forth, then whats moving my shoulder up and down to support the Hands?
Dude. Go to Top. Then holding your arms in place return your shoulders to their address position. Where are your hands? Would a movement of the Hands from their back to their position at Address be mainly Down? Very little Out. That is my point here.
If the Hands go up and down, and the Pivot goes back and forth, then are the Hands monitoring both paths simultaneously?
If I may ask one more question:
Isn't Down-plane a Path?
If I may ask one more question. I don't want to be annoying.
If my hands go up and down and my Pivot goes back and forth, then if they precisely move 1" at a time then their path will be down and out at a 45 degree angle to the ground. That's not the question. The question is, If my Pivot is moving back and Forth, then whats moving my shoulder up and down to support the Hands?
Ok I got more time now. Say you are cooking pancakes for da kids after a Bears game. Your daughter asks for more maple syrup which is in the cupboard , top shelf. You reach for it grab it. Your mind was on it, the bottle of syrup on the shelf. You didnt notice the pivot you made , around, back or the movement of your arms , hands UP . You just saw the Hands going directly towards the bottle. This relates to the discussion at hand and to the Stations, Address, Top, Finish. And to " Let the motion make the shot". Impact is not a Station.
The vectors are divergent as they are in most co ordinated movements we do ......with the possible exception of the golfer who employs a Shoulder Turn Takeaway. Which by definition would see da shoulders take da hands along in their direction, always under plane. Which would see Ditka miss da bottle of syrup on da top shelf. A first in NFL history.
Great question. Im thinking, the brain via its sensory outposts the Pressure Points in the Hands ensures the Hands travel the Inclined Plane, Pivot or no Pivot. So the path of the Hands, the degree of UP vs BACK is unique in each motion and dependent upon the amount of Pivot and the direction of the Pivot. Even I am confused by my own writing here. Let me try it again. If you take a non Pivot stroke, Hitting Putting say, the Hands travel the Inclined Plane right. Now take a Pivot Stroke where the Hands travel the Plane again and zero out the Pivot by taking your shoulders back to address and observe the unique path of the Hands which is now not on plane. This reveals the changes in Hand Path necessary given the Pivot being employed. Why is this necessary? Because the Arms are attached to the Shoulders and are therefore effected by Shoulder or Pivot motion.
Quote:
If I may ask one more question:
If the Hands go up and down, and the Pivot goes back and forth, then are the Hands monitoring both paths simultaneously?
Im not an AI and will defer to Drew or anyone else. But to my mind the Brain monitors the Hand Path vis a vis the Plane Line, Tracing and adjusts its control over the Hand Path to accommodate any off plane pressures that the Hands may sense be they from the Pivot or elsewhere. A gust of wind could, knock you off balance and the brain could compensate for instance. Like drawing a long line on a chalk board with someone trying to knock your hand off line, you try to compensate with equal and opposite forces to net out with a straight line. When this person stops you see your hand reflect the correction you have programed in as it shoots away in the direction of your correction, which you then re correct as you move back to unobstructed straight line tracing.
The Pivots motion is not On Plane, not traveling the same Path as the Hands at all times (one exception being the choice of an On Plane Shoulder turn in Statdown, the TSP concept). So the Hands are constantly adjusting in their quest to Trace the Straight Line Plane LIne assuming you are Tracing.
Quote:
If I may ask one more question:
Isn't Down-plane a Path?
Yes but it is, for pivot shots, the product of divergent vectors.
Quote:
If I may ask one more question. I don't want to be annoying
If my hands go up and down and my Pivot goes back and forth, then if they precisely move 1" at a time then their path will be down and out at a 45 degree angle to the ground. That's not the question. The question is, If my Pivot is moving back and Forth, then whats moving my shoulder up and down to support the Hands?
Not sure I follow you here. Your shoulders by definition are part of your Pivot in this regard no?
But if I may wander off path myself a bit, all of this necessitates that the Arms swing freely, independently from the Shoulders!!!!!! Per the MacDonald exercises or Wild Bill Melhourne drills etc. Relaxation at this connection is a must as tension tends to add more power to the Pivots normally off plane influence over the Arms and therefor the Hand Path! A good note to keep in mind when preparing to bomb a drive or when playing in very cold weather I find. Or tournament play, I guess never thought about that one till now, shucks. As Drew says "Let the Motion make the shot".
2-N-1 FORCE VECTORS Actually, the orbit of the Clubhead (7-23) is a resultant force (2-C-1). That is, it is the product of two divergent forces – one outward and one downward.
A. The Outward Force results from the action of the Shoulder Turn (2-H) and/or the Right Arm Thrust (6-B-1) if there is any of either. Otherwise, the Lever Assemblies are pushed or swung outward from the Hinges (2-G).
B. The Downward Force results from the action of Axis Tilt (Hip Slide – 7-14) and/or the Uncocking Left Wrist (2-P) if there is any of either. Otherwise, the Lever Assemblies are dropped, pulled or pushed downward from their fulcrums (6-A).
These two forces are “balanced out” (held On Plane 7-19) by Clubhead Lag (Hitting 10-19-A) or by Centrifugal Force (Swinging 10-19-C). So, On Plane Motion (2-F) automatically duplicates – but cannot annul (and should not obscure) – those Vector Forces (2-C-1).
Cliffsnotes:
In the first sentence of the above Quote, HK says that the path of the clubhead orbit is not magic. It was was caused or results by combining two divergent force vectors. One outward and one downward.
Paragraph A and the first paragraph of B, explains every conceivable combination of the two force vectors (One outward and one downward) for any conceivable stroke pattern included in Pivot strokes, non-pivot strokes, and whether hitting or swinging.
So, Balanced out, means held on-plane. In the "Basic" Stroke patterns of 12-1-0 and 12-2-0, these forces hold the Right shoulder on-plane during the downstroke.
The Right Shoulder moving On-Plane toward the Base Line is caused by, results from, a Balanced Out Force. But the Force of the Right Shoulder is an On-Plane Force (hopefully it's on-plane).
2nd paragraph of B. refers to the release interval as the Clubhead goes into its own orbit.
"but cannot annul" means that the On-Plane Clubhead orbit looks like a simple on-plane force. The On-Plane force is a duplicate force. But that doesn't hide, alter or undo the fact that it was caused by two divergent forces. The Clubhead orbit results from them.
"(and should not obscure)" means that the Clubhead should only get its orbit direction from these forces and not from other forces (such as the hands, which can obscure (change their effect) them). So, don't use the Hands to create an On-plane force (unless you do it intentionally). Hands are clamps.
2-N-1 FORCE VECTORS Horizontal and Vertical Force Vectors from the Pivot combine into an On-Plane Force to direct the Right Shoulder and Clubhead. This Force directs the Clubhead on its correct path during release and impact. Don't forget that and try to correct problems by manipulating the Clubhead path like a hacker when the real cause is your bad Pivot. And don't screw it up by using your hands to force and direct the Clubhead through impact thinking you can beat the system (unless you're really good at swinging the club).
Great lets change the subject to the orbit of the Clubhead and away from the path of the Hands. They relate but are not the same.
Originally Posted by Daryl
In the first sentence of the above Quote, HK says that the path of the clubhead orbit is not magic. It was was caused or results by combining two divergent force vectors. One outward and one downward.
And one backward and one upward on the backswing then, right?
Quote:
In the "Basic" Stroke patterns of 12-1-0 and 12-2-0, these forces hold the Right shoulder on-plane during the downstroke.
The Right Shoulder moving On-Plane toward the Base Line is caused by, results from, a Balanced Out Force. But the Force of the Right Shoulder is an On-Plane Force (hopefully it's on-plane).
Not the entire downstroke, lower case "d". Or are you referring to the Downstroke in a TGM sense? You know, Startdown, Downstroke, Release etc.
For both Basic Patterns 12-1 Hitting and 12-2 Swinging Homer selected the Standard Shoulder turn variation. Flat back and On Plane going down. The Right Shoulder riding the Inclined Plane or the TSP in Startdown. This is achieved via Axis Tilt, Hip Slide which lowers the Right Shoulder and was defined by Homer as another Downward force in 2-N-1. It is not as your Cliffsnotes suggest a result of the Balanced Out Force of the divergent Vectors. It cant be both Downward and Balanced Out at the same time. 2-N-1 pertains to the Clubhead Orbit not the Path of the Right Shoulder. The Right Shoulders path is way, way back in the Pivot Train or kinetic link or whatever, important though it is.
Quote:
So, don't use the Hands to create an On-plane force (unless you do it intentionally). Hands are clamps.
So dont use your Hands unintentionally? Is that what you mean? I used to use that excuse on dates all the time. "Oops sorry , didnt mean to do that ."
Hands are clamps, agreed. But when educated are used to great advantage. Didnt Lynn once say something like, "Its all about the Hands but its not a Handsy swing". I think it was in the Jeff Hull "From Mechanics to Feel" video.
Great lets change the subject to the orbit of the Clubhead and away from the path of the Hands. They relate but are not the same.
And one backward and one upward on the backswing then, right?
Not the entire downstroke, lower case "d". Or are you referring to the Downstroke in a TGM sense? You know, Startdown, Downstroke, Release etc.
For both Basic Patterns 12-1 Hitting and 12-2 Swinging Homer selected the Standard Shoulder turn variation. Flat back and On Plane going down. The Right Shoulder riding the Inclined Plane or the TSP in Startdown. This is achieved via Axis Tilt, Hip Slide which lowers the Right Shoulder and was defined by Homer as another Downward force in 2-N-1. It is not as your Cliffsnotes suggest a result of the Balanced Out Force of the divergent Vectors. It cant be both Downward and Balanced Out at the same time. 2-N-1 pertains to the Clubhead Orbit not the Path of the Right Shoulder. The Right Shoulders path is way, way back in the Pivot Train or kinetic link or whatever, important though it is.
So dont use your Hands unintentionally? Is that what you mean? I used to use that excuse on dates all the time. "Oops sorry , didnt mean to do that ."
Hands are clamps, agreed. But when educated are used to great advantage. Didnt Lynn once say something like, "Its all about the Hands but its not a Handsy swing". I think it was in the Jeff Hull "From Mechanics to Feel" video.
I agree. Hands at release and Impact. If you're good enough, skilled enough, and can handle it when something goes wrong, then use 'em. I do it on almost every shot. It's not that I let them interfere, but I do it just enough to "stay with the shot" and feel my way through Impact.
Aye,
Ya have to take the Shoulder downplane far enough to keep enough right elbow bend for release and impact. It will turn off plane around or before release, but it has to stay down.
Startup is simple plane line tracing With the Hands. No shoulder or Pivot until Backstroke.
I agree. If you're good enough, skilled enough, and can handle it when something goes wrong, then use 'em. Same thing with Golf.
Ill ask my wife tonight and find out if she thinks it skillful or not? Doubt it. But that doesnt stop me. Actually come to think of it I do that in Golf too. I am such a stupid.
Yup divergent vectors, pivot goes back and forth while the hands go up and down. They net out on plane ideally under the direction of the brain through the senses in the hands. Hands to Pivot. We do this sort of thing all the time actually, in our non golf motions. Turn and grab something at the same time with divergent vectors. We're wired to do this already. Lynn normally pats his head and rubs his stomach at the same time while discussing this subject.
Anyways the hammering thing is the plane of the left hand wrist cock and uncock, the vertical plane of the LFFW. What you are doing, assuming you're not super late Snap Release already, is a Non Automatic Sweep Release (10-24-B) with a Left Wrist Throw (10-20-E). Which is exactly what is recommended in the Basic Pattern for Swinging in 12-2-0. If your liking it Im guessing that you have already noticed the added zip to your shots that the Throw brings. But it isnt necessarily the end of the exercise. Yes there is more good news for G.O.L.F 'rs. More zip to be found.
Read 6-P-0 Non Automatic Release for some great great stuff including "let the motion make the shot" etc.
Then read 6-R-0 Automatic Release. " When the selected Non Automatic Stroke Pattern is mastered it can be pushed on to maximum Delay and become an Automatic Release..."
Note the "maximum Delay" as in maximum Power via a small pulley wheel from the Endless Belt analogy. So we start with Downswing blackout then add a Non Automatic Throw with a Random Sweep Release and then start to build upon it through training perhaps even acquiring an Automatic Snap Release. Although you can play fine, fine golf without getting all the way there. Many majors have been one with a Random Sweep Release. Watson almost won the most remarkable major of all time last year for instance with his Random Sweep. Training in this manner will bring precision to your Release and its Release Point which will add some shot making ability.
Although you are Swinging you might have read Lukes recent posts about a student of his who has seen his clubhead speed go through the roof while working on this stuff. Effortless power, so to speak, especially since more effort often begets a larger pulley wheel and approaches "Over Acceleration, the Menace that stalks all Lag and Drag". Lots to think about here in easy power land.
You'll probably need some guidance while on this journey. You're good with video, you could get Ted Fort or Jeff Hull to take a look at things as you go along. Im going to.
See ya.
Thanks again O.B.. I did notice an extra zip in my shots especially with the driver. I had my best driving day today in quite some time. I picked up about 15 yards with my driver and hitting it deadly straight. My irons were good but I didn't notice any extra yardage, maybe I'm not free-wheeling it like I am with my driver. I can't wait to get back to the course, it was sooooo much fun!!!
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