That rocking right shoulder section of the video is Tommy demonstrating the Flying wedge "drill"....it's part of a "drill" (in the video it's a demonstration from an acquired motion stroke, not to be confused with a total motion stroke).
Sorry, DG, Tommy clearly is demonstrating a Total Motion Stroke. His Backstroke moves to the Top (Right Shoulder high / 10-21-0-1), even to the End (10-21-0-3), well beyond the 'Right Forearm parallel to the ground' position (Acquired Motion Top / 12-5-2).
That said, I certainly can understand your interpretation. In other segments of the video, e.g., when demonstrating Extensor Action, Tommy just as clearly isolates the action of the Arms and moves them independently from the Top, i.e., with zero Pivot transport. He leaves his Body in a full turn and pumps only his arms, i.e., no 'shoulder rock'.
The video will speak for itself. We are presently working hard to prepare other video (Blake/Trolio) but will post this one soon. Once it is up, members can draw their own conclusions. As always, we will welcome all comments, including yours.
Sorry, DG, Tommy clearly is demonstrating a Total Motion Stroke. His Backstroke moves to the Top (Right Shoulder high / 10-21-0-1), even to the End (10-21-0-3), well beyond the 'Right Forearm parallel to the ground' position (Acquired Motion Top / 12-5-2).
That said, I certainly can understand your interpretation. In other segments of the video, e.g., when demonstrating Extensor Action, Tommy just as clearly isolates the action of the Arms and moves them independently from the Top, i.e., with zero Pivot transport. He leaves his Body in a full turn and pumps only his arms, i.e., no 'shoulder rock'.
The video will speak for itself. We are presently working hard to prepare other video (Blake/Trolio) but will post this one soon. Once it is up, members can draw their own conclusions. As always, we will welcome all comments, including yours.
Ok, let the tape/DVD do the talkin....please get Jack's go ahead to put the video up.
Crucial concepts to understand and differentiate are Delivery and Release.
In Pivot Strokes, the Power Package (6-0) -- Assembled with its Power Accumulated (6-B-0), Loaded (6-C-0) and Stored (6-D-0) -- is Delivered (6-E-0) by the Pivot (7-12) to its Release Point. Only then does the independent action of the Arms (the straightening of the Right Elbow) continue the Delivery of the Lever Assembly (Left Arm and Club) into Impact (6-K-0). In other words, only then does Arm Action -- versus Pivot Action -- "actuate" the Power Package. So . . .
First the Pivot.
Then, the Arms.
This cries out for a video.
It is this delayed extension ("uncocking") of the Right Arm -- the third side of the Triangle Assembly (6-A-1) -- that Triggers the Release (6-M-0) and drives the Club through Impact (1-L #10).
Tom Tomasello understood these concepts, as evidenced in his quotes from a video just sent me by our own Delaware Golf:
Demonstrating the Start Down and its Pivot Action, Tommy says:
"Lower the right shoulder . . . we know we don't do this [with the arms] . . .. this is what the body does, not the arms."
Then, demonstrating the Start Down Waggle (a pumping motion training the initial move from the Top), he says:
"Rock the shoulders. . . rock the shoulders."
"Now" he says, having delivered the Club well into the Downstroke via the 'rocking' Right Shoulder (Shoulder Turn Acceleration per 8-7), "uncock the arm" (Release per 8-9).
Tom's video will be in our Gallery ASAP. Thanks, Dave.
Bottom line: Only in Non-Pivot Strokes does the Arm action begin immediately (6-L-0). Otherwise, the Downstroke Sequence (6-M-1) is broken, the Right Shoulder remains 'high' and the Elbow becomes straight prior to (or during) Impact. This "running out of Right Arm" triggers an automatic Throwaway (6-D-0), and unless done intentionally and for a purpose, the shot is lost.
Yoda,
The next time I send you a video....I'll be on a plane with the delivery of the package. Because I need to go through the video with you.
You're killing me with the above analysis. Tommy rocks the shoulders with the flying wedge demonstration so the student gets the feel of the on-plane shoulders......in the demonstration Tommy rocks his shoulders three times....then stops at the top of the acquired motion stroke which he uses for a flying wedge drill....then he says to uncock the right forearm to complete the acquired motion swing (it's just a drill). That's right....the magic of the right forearm works from all locations in the stroke (again, reference the letter series #2 video, please).
In the book, Homer suggests isolating and practicing each component. In that drill Tomasello is doing just that...isolating the shoulder component number 13 at the beginning of the drill.
Yoda....please re-review the video and watch the extensor action drill (right after the flying wedge drill) for how Tommy starts the downswing. Listen to the conversation between Jack and Tommy.
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 01-27-2008 at 11:48 PM.
Two crucial concepts to understand and differentiate are Delivery and Release.
In Pivot Strokes, the Power Package (6-0) -- Assembled with its Power Accumulated (6-B-0), Loaded (6-C-0) and Stored (6-D-0) -- is Delivered (6-E-0) by the Pivot (7-12) to its Release Point. Only then does the independent action of the Arms (the straightening of the Right Elbow) continue the Delivery of the Lever Assembly (Left Arm and Club) into Impact (6-K-0). In other words, only then does Arm Action -- versus Pivot Action -- "actuate" the Power Package. So . . .
First the Pivot.
Then, the Arms.
[This cries out for a video.]
It is this delayed extension ("uncocking") of the Right Arm -- the third side of the Triangle Assembly (6-A-1) -- that Triggers the Release (6-M-0) and drives the Club through Impact (1-L #10).
Tom Tomasello understood these concepts, as evidenced in his quotes from a video just sent me by our own Delaware Golf:
Demonstrating the Start Down and its Pivot Action, Tommy says:
"Lower the right shoulder . . . we know we don't do this [with the arms] . . .. this is what the body does, not the arms."
Then, demonstrating the Start Down Waggle (a pumping motion training the initial move from the Top), he says:
"Rock the shoulders. . . rock the shoulders."
"Now" he says, having delivered the Club well into the Downstroke via the 'rocking' Right Shoulder (Shoulder Turn Acceleration per 8-7), "uncock the arm" (Release per 8-9).
Tom's video will be in our Gallery ASAP. Thanks, Dave.
Bottom line: Only in Non-Pivot Strokes does the Arm action begin immediately (6-L-0). Otherwise, the Downstroke Sequence (6-M-1) is broken, the Right Shoulder remains 'high' and the Elbow becomes straight prior to (or during) Impact. This "running out of Right Arm" triggers an automatic Throwaway (6-D-0), and unless done intentionally and for a purpose, the shot is lost.
The legs plant and the lower part of the spine pivots a bit and changes directions a split second before the upper spine, arms, and club have finished their backswing. This leg/lower spine action serves two purposes: It puts the brakes on the upper spine-arms-club backswing and it pushes into the ground to create the groundforce that the arms and hands can then transmit in a different direction, if desired, by lowering, forming, and aiming a harness or "power package". The initial leg plant and slight lower spine pivot to effect the braking action and groundforce production then slows down so that energy can flow into the prepared arms, hands, and club. The arms, hands, and club then swing through the ball past the pivot and then reaccelerate the slowed pivot to the finish. Horizontal hinge action typically accelerates the pivot to a fuller more rotateded finish than angled or vertical hinge action.
Based on the above, one could convincingly argue that the pivot precedes and sets up the start down, storage, delivery, and release of the power package, but one could also convincingly argue that start down, storage, delivery, and release are muscularly handled by the arms once the plant and pivot have supplied the braking action, groundforce production, and subsequent slow down necessary for the arms and hands to then muscularly form a harness and transmit the groundforce. Until the force is transmitted by the arms and hands, a golfer has not swung to hit the ball yet. So the arms harness and transmit the force on the downswing and the slowed pivot reaccelerates and follows thereafter. Arms initiate downswing force transmission and the pivot follows, but the pivot has already accelerated a bit and then slowed to facilitate this.
First pivot then arms to initiate, generate, and complete the actual strike of the ball or the other way around? Either explanation works for me. I just need to know someone's definitions of when the backswing stops, when the downswing begins, and when the actual muscular force to strike the ball is transmitted. I usually prefer to say that the legs and pivot stop the backswing and create the groundforce that the arms can then harness and transmit to initiate the strike of the ball. Since I can check my swing and decide not to strike the ball after my downswing leg and pivot action has occurred, then I really do feel that my bent right arm receives the ultimate message from my brain to initiate the strike of the ball.
I predict that there will always be two sides to this argument and both are right, but I do believe that the legs are the engine and the arms and hands are the transmission. The muscularly active and reactive pivot is necessary for both the engine and the transmission to be effective.
Einstein said that answers to complex questions like this are usually simple, elegant, and predictable, but in this case I believe in HL Mencken who said that "For every complex problem there is a simple solution. And it's always wrong." Both sides in this debate should be prepared to be wrong, right, or neither wrong nor right depending on the premises and context of the argument.
Since I can check my swing and decide not to strike the ball after my downswing leg and pivot action has occurred, then I really do feel that my bent right arm receives the ultimate message from my brain to initiate the strike of the ball.
I predict that there will always be two sides to this argument and both are right, but I do believe that the legs are the engine and the arms and hands are the transmission. The muscularly active and reactive pivot is necessary for both the engine and the transmission to be effective.
Wonderful post, Coop. Thanks!
It calls to mind an old memory of when I was working with Homer Kelley on the range in Seattle in January 1982. He advised me to pull the club down from the top.
"What do I pull it with?" I asked. "My body? Arms? Hands?"
The legs plant and the lower part of the spine pivots a bit and changes directions a split second before the upper spine, arms, and club have finished their backswing. This leg/lower spine action serves two purposes: It puts the brakes on the upper spine-arms-club backswing and it pushes into the ground to create the groundforce that the arms and hands can then transmit in a different direction, if desired, by lowering, forming, and aiming a harness or "power package". The initial leg plant and slight lower spine pivot to effect the braking action and groundforce production then slows down so that energy can flow into the prepared arms, hands, and club. The arms, hands, and club then swing through the ball past the pivot and then reaccelerate the slowed pivot to the finish. Horizontal hinge action typically accelerates the pivot to a fuller more rotateded finish than angled or vertical hinge action.
Based on the above, one could convincingly argue that the pivot precedes and sets up the start down, storage, delivery, and release of the power package, but one could also convincingly argue that start down, storage, delivery, and release are muscularly handled by the arms once the plant and pivot have supplied the braking action, groundforce production, and subsequent slow down necessary for the arms and hands to then muscularly form a harness and transmit the groundforce. Until the force is transmitted by the arms and hands, a golfer has not swung to hit the ball yet. So the arms harness and transmit the force on the downswing and the slowed pivot reaccelerates and follows thereafter. Arms initiate downswing force transmission and the pivot follows, but the pivot has already accelerated a bit and then slowed to facilitate this.
First pivot then arms to initiate, generate, and complete the actual strike of the ball or the other way around? Either explanation works for me. I just need to know someone's definitions of when the backswing stops, when the downswing begins, and when the actual muscular force to strike the ball is transmitted. I usually prefer to say that the legs and pivot stop the backswing and create the groundforce that the arms can then harness and transmit to initiate the strike of the ball. Since I can check my swing and decide not to strike the ball after my downswing leg and pivot action has occurred, then I really do feel that my bent right arm receives the ultimate message from my brain to initiate the strike of the ball.
I predict that there will always be two sides to this argument and both are right, but I do believe that the legs are the engine and the arms and hands are the transmission. The muscularly active and reactive pivot is necessary for both the engine and the transmission to be effective.
Einstein said that answers to complex questions like this are usually simple, elegant, and predictable, but in this case I believe in HL Mencken who said that "For every complex problem there is a simple solution. And it's always wrong." Both sides in this debate should be prepared to be wrong, right, or neither wrong nor right depending on the premises and context of the argument.
Probably a waste of effort for me to post this- but sometimes you just can't help but see potential and try to help it.
First, Really a very intelligent and thoughtful analysis of some of the interactions and facts happening in the golf swing- excellent. You are obviously intelligent and motivated.
It's also unique that the unlabeled problem in your post (as I see it) is summarized in your last paragraph. I call it a problem because it is and will limit how far you can take your ideas and knowledge. Without getting too deep- Epistemology is the 2nd branch of Philosophy- the study of knowldege- "How do you know what you know?" and whether consciously or subconsciously you've chosen H L Mencken/ Friedich Nietzsche/ Analytical Philosophy versus the inherent principles of knowledge that Einstein used based on Aristotle. It's also those principles - that allowed the level of achievement or lack thereof for each.
Summary- Either you can take my post as a compliment to your very insightful and intelligent post! PM me and I could give you a few ideas of things to read that would make you even better. Or take my post as a complete insult and ban me from the forum. Or finally, just take it as some ego-head rantings and ignore it completely. Or anything in between, either option is fine with me- no matter what I'm sure Bucket will have an insightful follow-up post!
P.S. Here is my condensed version- You've made one mistake in your post- you've chosen Mencken over Einstein.
And Yes, I know- "What does this have to do with Tomasello Swinging motion?!- I'm sure DG will scold me shortly and tell me to create my own thread- and the beat goes on!"
__________________
Life Goal- Developing a new theory of movement based on Brain Science
Interests - Dabbling with insanity
Hobbies- Creating Quality
I think from time to time we all get infected with the idea that there is one right way or best way to play this gaime. That there is one way to get to a perfect swing. I certainly plead guilty as charged.
Then I think back to a video of Hogan saying "I knew my swing wasn't the best out here. That is why I outworked 'em." And I recall hearing video of a younger Yoda talking with Homer on the phone, asking about the best way of several aspects of the swing. From Homer's perspective, there were options and combinations, not one best way! That flexibility is what makes TGM so fresh and adaptable. I see Ted Fort on the net questioning a BioKinetic expert about complex hip movements. The challenge is not to find the one best way. It is to seek out the way that works the best for each of us.
Geez, I love this game. And this site!
I think from time to time we all get infected with the idea that there is one right way or best way to play this gaime. That there is one way to get to a perfect swing. I certainly plead guilty as charged.
Then I think back to a video of Hogan saying "I knew my swing wasn't the best out here. That is why I outworked 'em." And I recall hearing video of a younger Yoda talking with Homer on the phone, asking about the best way of several aspects of the swing. From Homer's perspective, there were options and combinations, not one best way! That flexibility is what makes TGM so fresh and adaptable. I see Ted Fort on the net questioning a BioKinetic expert about complex hip movements. The challenge is not to find the one best way. It is to seek out the way that works the best for each of us.
Geez, I love this game. And this site!
UPP in freezing Ohio
It's just like building spaceships and going into space. Lot's of different options but you need to follow certain principles. Or quoting Homer Kelley- and in somewhat more of a limited example he says "....for people-shaped golfers, there is actually only "one swing,", as depicted in Chapter 8 and discussed in Chapter 7. Just for clarification "seeking out the way that works the best for each of us", doesn't mean anything goes or there is no right or wrong. So, to my fellow poster in beautiful Ohio , I'm not saying you said that or implied that - but I'm just clarifying for anyone that might read that might get that impression- that anything goes- which isn't the case. At least, that's my 2 cents. Staying on the Philosophy thread for a minute- I'm not a fan of Pragmatism either- even if it is somewhat popular.
__________________
Life Goal- Developing a new theory of movement based on Brain Science
Interests - Dabbling with insanity
Hobbies- Creating Quality
Hybrid Mode
