Lag transportation

[Mike O]

This is great stuff- Mike.
The image of the pivot transporting the Power Package needs to be ingrained onto the psyche of every TGMer. The pivot is not a twist or a spin but a hip motion that sets up either a punch for a Hitter’s Power Package or a slingshot for the Swinger’s Power Package.

btw-This is why you can not be effective in trying to pull and push.

In the context of my post and the 2nd paragraph in 7-12-

"The image of the pivot transporting the Power Package needs to be ingrained into the psyche of every" - 3 barrel Hitter. At least that is how I would write what you wrote.

The pivot isn't a hip motion. Nor is it a hip motion that sets up ......
The pivot is the combined motion or lack thereof - of the feet, knees, hip, shoulder motions. See Homer Kelley's definition(s).

It is the acceleration method (Hitting or Swinging) and it's particular loading characteristics that "tends" to set up a punch elbow position for the Hitter's Power Package and a pitch elbow postion for the Swinger's Power Package. Although- elbow positions are really just optional choices (variations) depending on one's inherent pattern- nothing mandatory there. To infer that the Hitter always would have a punch elbow position or the Swinger always would have a pitch elbow position- really misses what the Golfing Machine book is all about.

Again, most of this is just the mechanical features of what is happening and not ideas that you would want to focus on while making the movement. Except - when you are improving your movement, this wealth of mechanical information can help you understand the nature of your particular problem and become an important problem solving tool chest to unravel your particular movement puzzle.

Anyway Mike- Just trying to keep you on "my" train of thinking. Not saying that it's the right train to be on.

[6bmike]

In the context of my post and the 2nd paragraph in 7-12-

"The image of the pivot transporting the Power Package needs to be ingrained into the psyche of every" - 3 barrel Hitter. At least that is how I would write what you wrote.

Let the Pivot do its job- Let the pivot move the Hands, Let the pivot move the Power Package. The Hands trained the pivot well to enjoy the free ride.
I still like the imagine of the whole Power Package going "bye-bye" as a passenger on the pivot train.

The pivot isn't a hip motion. Nor is it a hip motion that sets up ......
The pivot is the combined motion or lack thereof - of the feet, knees, hip, shoulder motions. See Homer Kelley's definition(s).

Of course the pivot is more than the motion of the Hips, but it is the Hips that Hula Hula with the shoulders to set up the delivery of the Hands.

It is the acceleration method (Hitting or Swinging) and it's particular loading characteristics that "tends" to set up a punch elbow position for the Hitter's Power Package and a pitch elbow postion for the Swinger's Power Package. Although- elbow positions are really just optional choices (variations) depending on one's inherent pattern- nothing mandatory there. To infer that the Hitter always would have a punch elbow position or the Swinger always would have a pitch elbow position- really misses what the Golfing Machine book is all about.

When I said punch (small p), I was refering to the feel of the attack the right arm in a Hit Stroke, not the Elbow Position. A Hitter sets up like a boxer and drives a punch through the ball.

Again, most of this is just the mechanical features of what is happening and not ideas that you would want to focus on while making the movement. Except - when you are improving your movement, this wealth of mechanical information can help you understand the nature of your particular problem and become an important problem solving tool chest to unravel your particular movement puzzle.

Anyway Mike- Just trying to keep you on "my" train of thinking. Not saying that it's the right train to be on.

I have enjoyed the scope of your Golfing Machine knowledge for many years, especially when I was the top dumb hammer in a box of dumb hammers. Today I can make a few Machine adjustments and that my friend is a great feeling.

6b

[Mike O]

Let the Pivot do its job- Let the pivot move the Hands, Let the pivot move the Power Package. The Hands trained the pivot well to enjoy the free ride.
I still like the imagine of the whole Power Package going "bye-bye" as a passenger on the pivot train.

Here's where we differ Mike:.
"My view is the exact opposite of the one that you posted above. "Let the hands move the pivot." "The Hands never get a free ride. They are not a passenger on the pivot train- they are the driver of the pivot train."

Of course, the pivot is more than the motion of the Hips, but it is the Hips that Hula Hula with the shoulders to set up the delivery of the Hands.

Again, my view is just the opposite:
The Hands have their goal, which creates the sliding of the hips (Hula Hula) on the downswing- which in turn keeps the right shoulder down and back. The hips don't Hula Hula to set up the delivery of the Hands- The Hands inititate and create the delivery and the hip(s) move out of the way (ideally) to allow that delivery to continue on the intended path
6b

See my comments above in bold. I don't post much because it's not worth the effort and I don't have the time to post the full implication, elaboration and validation of the related issues involved- to fully support the concept. A forum really isn't the best place to do that. In summary, if you want the difference between a hand controlled pivot and pivot controlled hands- just read above.

[12 piece bucket]

See my comments above in bold. I don't post much because it's not worth the effort and I don't have the time to post the full implication, elaboration and validation of the related issues involved- to fully support the concept. A forum really isn't the best place to do that. In summary, if you want the difference between a hand controlled pivot and pivot controlled hands- just read above.

Here's where we differ Mike:.
"My view is the exact opposite of the one that you posted above. "Let the hands move the pivot." "The Hands never get a free ride. They are not a passenger on the pivot train- they are the driver of the pivot train."

Again, my view is just the opposite:
The Hands have their goal, which creates the sliding of the hips (Hula Hula) on the downswing- which in turn keeps the right shoulder down and back. The hips don't Hula Hula to set up the delivery of the Hands- The Hands inititate and create the delivery and the hip(s) move out of the way (ideally) to allow that delivery to continue on ithe intended path

It is a very very somber and unfortunate day . . . I must pay you a sincere compliment (wish it could be backhanded). But this is damn good for a normal human being type person . . . much less a genetically challenged sheep stalker. One of the most concise and illuminating descriptions of how the hands dictate the pivot that I have read. Nice job Stinky.

. . . now back to the regularly scheduled programming . . .

[Mike O]

It is a very very somber and unfortunate day . . . I must pay you a sincere compliment (wish it could be backhanded). But this is damn good for a normal human being type person . . . much less a genetically challenged sheep stalker. One of the most concise and illuminating descriptions of how the hands dictate the pivot that I have read. Nice job Stinky.

. . . now back to the regularly scheduled programming . . .

Nice try - You just want to see the psychotic idiot ramble on more! Take a shower!

P.S. With you and I on this forum it really is a slap in the face that Bagger or BamBam don't have a "psychotic idiot" emoticon available . Another sign that they don't want us here- too bad we can't take a hint.

[12 piece bucket]

Nice try - You just want to see the psychotic idiot ramble on more! Take a shower!

P.S. With you and I on this forum it really is a slap in the face that Bagger or BamBam don't have a "psychotic idiot" emoticon available . Another sign that they don't want us here- too bad we can't take a hint.

Are you wearing the big girl panties again Mike??? We have TALKED about what this does to you . . . please.

[Mike O]

It's just important to understand that alot of the Golfing Machine is mechanical descriptions of what is happening or should be happening. That may be great information if the machine breaks down and you need to fix it- but it's not helpful in the operation of the machine. Just like the mechanical features/knowledge of how to build and/or repair a car and how an engine operates- are much different than the operational knowledge to drive the car.

Ideally, what needs to be expressed but is rarely expressed, is the context of the statement. Is it a mechanical feature or an operational feature. And then further - how does that mechanical feature relate to the operational feature or vica versa.

For example, using Golfing Machine terms- "your flying wedges lost their structure on the downswing" i.e. say the left wrist bent before impact -
That is the mechanical feature.

You need to maintain the flying wedges your coach tells you-
That is a mechanical feature.

You then decide to try "hold" the thing in place on the downswing -
That is an operational feature.

Maybe you try to "feel" them stay in place on the downswing-
That is an operational feature.

Unfortunately, both of your "changes" were an effort to "copycat" the mechanical feature. When let's say in your particular situation the best possible correction might be to feel the same amount of lag pressure that you loaded at the top- maintained via acceleration - beyond impact. That would be your operational feature that corrects the mechanical feature. Or could be any one of unlimited other possible operational features that produces the correct mechanical feature. You might have throwaway and find that if you smell fried chicken on the downswing that you don't have throwaway- hence the operational feature would be to have a barbecue in your golf cart- I'm not naming names here.

[6bmike]

See my comments above in bold. I don't post much because it's not worth the effort and I don't have the time to post the full implication, elaboration and validation of the related issues involved- to fully support the concept. A forum really isn't the best place to do that. In summary, if you want the difference between a hand controlled pivot and pivot controlled hands- just read above.

I trained my pivot with my hands. My pivot works for them. In no way does my body transport the hands on an unfamiliar pathway.

I can't see how I can be so wrong. If I am than I will not take up much of anyone's time and misguide them. It's best to just return to the pleasure of reading posts and learning what I can.

[Mike O]

I trained my pivot with my hands. My pivot works for them. In no way does my body transport the hands on an unfamiliar pathway.

I can't see how I can be so wrong. If I am than I will not take up much of anyone's time and misguide them. It's best to just return to the pleasure of reading posts and learning what I can.

Mike,
First you need to understand that I am not on my medication- as Bucket would point out. Second, It's sometimes difficult to put yourself in the context of the writer- so I may have completly mis-interpreted the context of your post. Finally, you gotta take all this with a grain of salt if that's the right saying (I'm great at messing those things up)- everyone's got their own opinion or perspective- not really life or death here.

That said, My point was if a beginning student read post#9- I would think that on the procedural/operational/ "what am I trying to do here" level - they would focus on the pivot if they read your post and the hands if they read my post.

That intention to move your hands and the club is the christmas tree that everything else hangs on. It is the canvass that the artist uses to paint the painting. It is the basic. Everything else is just details.

If that still is confusing then specifically it's the word "let" as in "Let the pivot move the hands" - that to "ME" and possibly "ME" only- implies that you place your attention/intention on the pivot. Now, since this thread started with a reference to Ben Doyle- then I would add from my perspective that his approach and communication of the stroke- with the focus on the pivot- is the same that I am implying was in your post. Just in case you are or have learned from him. That's just not my approach.

To close in regards to your post here.
6BMIKE: "In no way does my body transport the hands on an unfamiliar pathway." From my perspective it's not only the path that they take but the method that creates that path. You could pick up a ball off the ground or hit a baseball with the hands traveling on a nice plane but you could have created that motion in an un-coordinated method. In other words, you could have picked the ball off the ground by focusing on and having your intention to create a certain amount of knee flex and waist bend.

6BMIKE: "I can't see how I can be so wrong. If I am than I will not take up much of anyone's time and misguide them. It's best to just return to the pleasure of reading posts and learning what I can."

I'd say the rule of the road would be - if you have the interest - then certainly share your knowledge. Now, If you (Not Mike O.) decide that some aspect of your knowledge needs to be upgraded, changed, etc. then you make that change and move on- continuing to share what you know and look to listen and improve. So as long as a person's intention is not to misguide then share, share, share. There is always going to be disagreements, sometimes those disagreements don't get settled because one or both sides can't communicate or understand the issues involved enough to arrive at a common understanding.

I'm always available off-line if you want to get a complete elaboration of the entire context of this topic matter.

Otherwise, do what Bucket does and run me over- then back the truck up and run me over again for good measure- and then when you have confirmed death- go out and shoot a smooth 67.

[Yoda]

That intention to move your hands and the club is the christmas tree that everything else hangs on. It is the canvass that the artist uses to paint the painting. It is the basic. Everything else is just details.

Intention.

I like that word.

Are you saying that the intention to move the Hands causes the Pivot to move first? And to thus initiate its Power Package Transportation and alignment-support assignments?