There seem to be at least two schools of explaining a Hands Controlled Pivot.
1. Move the Hands, and the Body will react to that movement. The example sometimes given is...Reach down and pick up an object. The body moves as a result of the hand going to the object. Now... TAKE THE HANDS TO THE BALL, AND THE BODY WILL REACT.
2. This one sounds similar to, Pivot Controlled Hands. The HANDS DON'T MOVE, UNLESS THE PIVOT OR BODY MOVES, however, the MIND IS IN THE HANDS.
Are these the same thing, or are they different? What do you think?
I would explain thusly. Swingers aim the thrust through his hands (passive) - the body provides the blast off power. A hitter actively drives the thrust though the hands/arms.
I suppose you could have a true pure pivot controlled swing but is it realistic?
I struggle with this one a bit Lagster so maybe writing a response will help crystalize an answer.
Both options have the same intent based on identical start down positions. That is, the hands are involved in the aiming just as if you were throwing a baseball.
The first example is biased towards the hands leading the body, and the second is the body leading the hands.
In reality, both examples start with the body leading the hands. In order to pick an object off the floor, the hands get in a position to grab an object; lets call that the "start down position", but the body delivers the hand several feet, then the arm extends so the hand can do the "picking". Its easy to do this experiment and in every case, the body moves well before the arm and hand reaches out.
Personally, I think the second option is more correct wording because the first example implies that the start down is initiated with a movement of the hands.
I think there needs to be agreement about where the hands start from. If we agree that the "top" or "end" of the swing is where the aiming begins, then we could also agree that the hands are in a position to be accurately delivered to their aiming point.
From there, the body transports the hands in the same way a Pitcher would deliver low, inside fastball.
__________________
Bagger
1-H "Because of questions of all kinds, reams of additional detail must be made available - but separately, and probably endlessly." Homer Kelly
my thoughts after nearly 2 years of incubation....
Thanks for raising this one Lagster, provokes me into writing which, like Bagger stated, can crystalise one's ideas.
I believe there are 3 stages of the journey to what i believe is Homer Kelley's true definition of "hands controlled pivot".
1. Pivot controlled hands
2. "Conscious Hand sensation" controlled pivot ( imperatives required / essentials desirable)
3. "Conscious hand motion" controlled Pivot ( Imperatives and Essentials are MANDATORY to make it work)
Stage 1 (pre TGM)
Pivot controlled hands
Most golfers who have played/learnt golf in the last 20 years come to TGM with little or no concept of hand sensation or movement in the back or downswing. They may even have been told that the hands are responsible for all the problems in theri swing.
They have their mind in some part of their body/pivot and have a vague awareness of swing plane ( getting the arms and hands sufficiently "up" in the backswing) but that is about it... pretty much everything else is "downswing blackout".
then, one day, they happen to chance upon TGM based knowledge....
They are allowed to consider the role of the hands.... not just passive clamps...CLAMPS THAT FEEL!!!!! pressure points....straight plane line.... lag pressure....flat left wrist....
STAGE 2
HANDS "SENSATION" controlled pivot
Their core knowledge of TGM allows them to feel lag loading ( this alone is a revelation) ....once recognised they can feel and identify the location of their hands are in the downswing and sustaining that sensation produces accumulator lag on the video cam.... ball striking improves...all is well.... they have added some downswing illumination and hence precision to the downswing.... less blackout but not yet daylight... many stop at this level...
BUT they still feel that the majority of active movement is in the pivot...leaving the hands purely as clamps which provide a CONSCIOUS LAG PRESSURE SENSATION.... basically they feel the lag sensation developed in transition.... recognise it and consciously point it at the aiming point whilst getting their pivot to do all the work...
I see this as Lagster definition 2 - mind in hands.... but .... still very conscious of their pivot work....
STAGE 3
HAND MOTION ( OR INTENTION TO MOVE HANDS ) Controlled Pivot
This is the Holy grail.... the conscious and deliberate MOTION of the hands actually causes the pivot to move.... both to provide power package transport and move out of the way in anticipation of the club's release....
This , I believe, can be achieved IF you truly adhere to the imperatives and the Essentials.
IMPERATIVES and ESSENTIALS are the framework, the scaffold, which allows the hand motion ( or "intended motion" of the hands) to control the pivot. If you have educated your body ( all 3 zones) to TRULY understand the mechanical restrictions/consequences that the body parts are placed under when you adhere to the "letter of the law" of the essentials and imperatives....
THEN , and only then, can the pivot respond appropriately to conscious hand motion.... it is so easy to get it wrong.... and make it look like the hands are moving independently of the pivot.... but i believe that in those cases You have not adhered to the essentials and imperatives.
On the video cam it will look like the pivot has moved first...and it has... but the hands are able to travel a bit quicker because they are travelling along a pathway which has been learnt and programmed.... they respond immediately to their programming and do not have to wait for you to consciously experience lag pressure.... too slow....
This is pushing the envelope of my current TGM knowledge and experience.... i am putting this forward to debate... shout me down if you think I am crazy or overloaded on Kool Aid.... but I think I am right.... and I do not usually say that on these forums!
Now to really push the envelope of my knowledge..here's the science bit!
It is well known that the brain has excellent proprioception for hand motion, signals passed from hand ( muscles, joints etc) UNCONSCIOUSLY and MORE RAPIDLY than the pressure sensation that we experience as "lag pressure" ( different neurones/ different speed of conduction/ different central processors). If there are two parts of the body which are more acutely monitored by your cerebellum than the hands and the head... well, i would be amazed....and by head i include eyes.... hand eye coordination is as much henad-head coordination IMO....
Any wonder why Homer talks about the hands and head so much??
So Conscious hand motion is actually using Unconscious hand sensation to monitor and control it. This sensory system has to operate at higher speed than conscious hand sensation. However, the cerebellum requires training to develop the neuronal pathways for precision delivery paths of the hands. Slower process required and conscious hand sensation can aid this ( see stage 2).
Now that is enough to be going on with.... i am just going to duck for cover ....awaiting a few incoming rounds....
When i first read the book, the sentence below is one of the most unforgettable:
“Hands are not educated until they control the Pivot”
I think my hands are still stupid!
__________________
If you cannot take the shoulder down the clubshaft plane, you must take along some other path and add compensations - now, instead of one motion to remember, you wind up with at least two!
There seem to be at least two schools of explaining a Hands Controlled Pivot.
1. Move the Hands, and the Body will react to that movement. The example sometimes given is...Reach down and pick up an object. The body moves as a result of the hand going to the object. Now... TAKE THE HANDS TO THE BALL, AND THE BODY WILL REACT.
2. This one sounds similar to, Pivot Controlled Hands. The HANDS DON'T MOVE, UNLESS THE PIVOT OR BODY MOVES, however, the MIND IS IN THE HANDS.
Are these the same thing, or are they different? What do you think?
The soccer player has a
1.leg-controlled-pivot for kicking, or
2. head-controlled-pivot for knocking, or
3. hands/arms-controlled-pivot for throwing, or
4. belly-controlled-pivot for yelling, or
.............
In essence, they are all "LAG"-controlled-pivot for lagging.
In golf, the club happens to be held by the hands.
__________________ Yani Tseng, Go! Go! Go! Yani Tseng Did It Again! YOU load and sustain the "LAG", during which the "LAW" releases it, ideally beyond impact.
"Sustain (Yang/陽) the lag (Yin/陰)" is "the unification of Ying and Yang" (陰陽合一).
The "LAW" creates the "effect", which is the "motion" or "feel", with the "cause", which is the "intent" or "command".
"Lag" is the secret of golf, passion is the secret of life.
Think as a golfer, execute like a robot.
Rotate, twist, spin, turn. Bend the shaft.
There seem to be at least two schools of explaining a Hands Controlled Pivot.
1. Move the Hands, and the Body will react to that movement. The example sometimes given is...Reach down and pick up an object. The body moves as a result of the hand going to the object. Now... TAKE THE HANDS TO THE BALL, AND THE BODY WILL REACT.
2. This one sounds similar to, Pivot Controlled Hands. The HANDS DON'T MOVE, UNLESS THE PIVOT OR BODY MOVES, however, the MIND IS IN THE HANDS.
Are these the same thing, or are they different? What do you think?
Your basic PROCEDURE has to be take hands up and down the plane. But you still have to train and monitor the pivot right? Think about all the stuff that you can do at one time (drive, eat, listen to radio, talk on phone, yell at kids) . . . . they all are not your PRIMARY focus or end game but you are monitoring a lot of stuff. Focus is to keep the car in the lines or to run over the 'possum or whatever. But you can still pick your nose and listen to the radio while you do it. But the overall mission is to keep it in the lines or take the hands up and down the plane.
It is well known that the brain has excellent proprioception for hand motion, signals passed from hand ( muscles, joints etc) UNCONSCIOUSLY and MORE RAPIDLY than the pressure sensation that we experience as "lag pressure" ( different neurones/ different speed of conduction/ different central processors). If there are two parts of the body which are more acutely monitored by your cerebellum than the hands and the head... well, i would be amazed....and by head i include eyes.... hand eye coordination is as much henad-head coordination IMO....
Any wonder why Homer talks about the hands and head so much??
Great post, golfbulldog.
When thinking of Homer's emphasis on the Hands, I am always reminded of the Homunculus and the disproportionate amount of the brain allocated to their functioning.
When thinking of Homer's emphasis on the Hands, I am always reminded of the Homunculus and the disproportionate amount of the brain allocated to their functioning.
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