I'm hoping this will help me understand Hinge Action/Motion (sorry, as I'm still working on my terminology).
If two players wind up at impact separation with the clubhead, face and shaft in the exact same alignments all at the same speed and hitting the ball in the same spot on the face with every other alignment matching with the only difference being that one player arrived there after a Horizontal Hinge action and other player arrived there after a Vertical Hinge Action.
Which shot has better compression and why?
I think they would be the same.
Can compression even be measured? What machine could do this, super super slo motion camera.
It seems like if you could build a machine to create the hinges and had a way to test it that would be the only way to know beyond the theoretical.
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"The only real shortcuts are more and more know how"...TGM
So, is the official answer that my hypothetical is an impossibility?
Even with a pitch?
or a chip?
Could I build an iron byron type machine to create it?
or is it against all the laws of physics that no combination of work or intelligence could make it happen?
JG
You could build an iron byron to recreate Hinge Action Id imagine ........but it would have to have some #3 Accumulator Angle....... the grip in the left hand under the heal of the thumb pad instead of running up through the life line. ( like one does when putting ..........and why do we do that when we're putting? Because it deadens the send applied to the ball......by zeroing out the clubhead travel associated with any rolling of the left wrist. Giving every Hinge Action the clubhead travel of Angled Hinging .......which is zero) Its interesting to me that golfers commonly adopt this putting grip , sometimes even when chipping without any knowledge of why .......but the physics of it is there for the ball to react to.
If you want more info on #3 angle check out Ted Forts golf channel video......there's a part where he talks about "distal" acceleration as I recall. Imagine doing that with a putting grip and notice how there wouldnt be any added clubhead acceleration for left forearm roll.
Compression isnt needed as part of Trackmans calculations then? Again like Hinge Action, Id imagine that though compression is irrelevant to their calculations, it is anything but irrelevant to the golfer.
There must be a lot of things like that Id imagine ...... things "up stream" of the measurements made by Trackman that though "irrelevant" are still causal. "Causal" , whats happening to me? Golf nut using big words, my apologies to the people who know better.
John my position is that I see the effects of Hinge Action and use them like a tool for a lot of shots. Especially around the green. It'd be a shock to find I could just set the face and alter the plane line to get the same results. A total shock. And what about Steering, Vertical Hinging for a driver say...... Wouldnt golf be a much easier game than it is if that had no adverse effect on the ball?
You could build an iron byron to recreate Hinge Action Id imagine ........but it would have to have some #3 Accumulator Angle....... the grip in the left hand under the heal of the thumb pad instead of running up through the life line. ( like one does when putting ..........and why do we do that when we're putting? Because it deadens the send applied to the ball......by zeroing out the clubhead travel associated with any rolling of the left wrist. Giving every Hinge Action the clubhead travel of Angled Hinging .......which is zero) Its interesting to me that golfers commonly adopt this putting grip , sometimes even when chipping without any knowledge of why .......but the physics of it is there for the ball to react to.
If you want more info on #3 angle check out Ted Forts golf channel video......there's a part where he talks about "distal" acceleration as I recall. Imagine doing that with a putting grip and notice how it would accelerate the clubhead at all.
OB.
Interesting point.
If I remember correctly, the more #3 accumulator the more head travel for any forearm rotation. Am I saying that right?
So, for horizontal hinging which employs more #3 the club head is accelerating more then with vertical hinging?
Am I correct so far?
Would that mean that if I can accelerate the club more over a shorter time frame that I get more umf than going at a constant speed?
I hope I haven't just confused myself. Is this what you meant with your car analogy?
If I remember correctly, the more #3 accumulator the more head travel for any forearm rotation. Am I saying that right?
So, for horizontal hinging which employs more #3 the club head is accelerating more then with vertical hinging?
Am I correct so far?
Would that mean that if I can accelerate the club more over a shorter time frame that I get more umf than going at a constant speed?
I hope I haven't just confused myself. Is this what you meant with your car analogy?
JG
The car analogy was a little different. It was more about assuming they ( beatle and 911) are going the same speed and then deducing they are equally powerful. They're different cars. For any given hand speed you get more clubhead speed with Horizontal.
The #3 angle is set when you grip the club really. So Horizontal and Vertical have the same amount of #3 angle. No difference there. But Horizontal (in simple terms) has the left arm rolling. Angled has it not rolling. Vertical has it reverse rolling. So Horizontal's clubhead travel is greater (than the other hinge actions) for any associated distance the hands travel . Vertical a reverse roll has the clubhead traveling less. Angled has zero cubhead hinge " travel".
Did i say that correctly ? Now Im getting confused.
Try this....hold out your left arm and hand as if to shake someones hand , now drop it down on the inclined plane. Now grip an imaginary golf club and take your hand back and forth a foot or so. No left arm roll equals Angled. Roll equals Horizontal , reverse roll is Vertical. Imagine how that change in roll changes the distance the head travels though your hands are only going back and forth a foot or so. Now adopt a putting grip with the club running up the life line.... hinging has zero influence clubhead speed, "zero travel" via a "zeroed #3 accumulator, just different clubface rotation.
So the hinge action employed influences clubhead speed and the rate of clubface closing and layback.
In regard to closing , the clubface is in the process of continuously closing through impact however brief that may be. The face will be more closed at separation than at impact unless impact is 0 seconds long. Same deal with layback, the clubface will be more lofted at separation. So the question is does this influence ball behaviour, compression? My chips and pitches suggest it does.
Can compression even be measured? What machine could do this, super super slo motion camera.
It seems like if you could build a machine to create the hinges and had a way to test it that would be the only way to know beyond the theoretical.
If you can measure swing speed and mass then compression would be the difference in ball speed. So measure ball speed using the same ball and club. I create a higher ball speed with HH than VH but that may not be true for everyone.
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