How did Homer and Dr. T explain (compare and contrast) :
1) Initial ball flight?
2) Curvature of ball flight?
My understanding so far:-
1)Homer and Dr T (Mr T's more educated brother) both agree that initial ball direction is predominantly due to clubface at impact (Homer stated seperation and Dr T probably didn't care ...)
2)Homer thought that clubface behaviour during impact interval (hinge action) could influence ballflight in addition to the accepted method which uses disparity between clubface at impact and clubhead direction through impact - something that Dr T explained with his "D-plane".
Hinge action users (I place myself in this group) can demo the different ballflight behaviour that we can create (and the ball don't lie)- is this really a different form of physics or are we just altering the D -plane alignments?
Looking for discussion - thoughts - musings - but not too many hard line warriors with an axe to grind.... thanks.
Hinge action users (I place myself in this group) can demo the different ballflight behaviour that we can create (and the ball don't lie)- is this really a different form of physics or are we just altering the D -plane alignments?
Looking for discussion - thoughts - musings - but not too many hard line warriors with an axe to grind.... thanks.
Please explain the 'D-Plane' (for the rest of us) and contrast it with TGM's Turned Shoulder Plane Angle (10-6-B) and On Plane Right Shoulder Turn (10-13-D). Your explanation, graphics and links will be appreciated. Thanks!
Please explain the 'D-Plane' (for the rest of us) and contrast it with TGM's Turned Shoulder Plane Angle (10-6-B) and On Plane Right Shoulder Turn (10-13-D). Your explanation, graphics and links will be appreciated. Thanks!
Boss . . . .
Here's a link to Jorgenson's book that goes into the D-plane . . .
Basically this guy is saying that generally the ball's starting direction is 80% face and 20% path and represents that with a "ray" or "plane" coming off the face. The ball curves in relation to the path vector. It took a computer nerd to figure out that the face controls the starting direction which of course Mr. Kelley figured out in the summer of 69. But I think the one thing that is somewhat different that the computer geeks have posited is that the ball is on the club for such a short amount of time that impact and separation are in essence the same . . . there by making hinge action "obsolete". Therein lies the "controversy" of the people who want to rip Mr. Kelley's science.
Here's some more potentially interesting stuff from "trackman" . .
Havent had a chance to read all of that yet but.....How on earth could they think Separation to be immediate? That would render Compression a constant then wouldnt it? No Impact Interval, no Hinge Action , no Compression?
I believe Hinge Action to be as old as golf itself. While Homer defined/decoded Hinge Action golfers such as Palmer and Nicklaus have touched on it in there writings in regard to chipping and pitching. Drewit or Yoda could probably add many other authors to a list..... I bet Old Tom Morris probably had an Angled Hinge cut shot.......or a low, running Horizontal bump and run shot.
Here is an excerpt from James Braid's "Advanced Golf", published in 1920.
I dont know if this counts as an early description of Hinge Action or not but it sure reminds me of the Horizontal and Vertical Hinging.
the computer geeks have posited is that the ball is on the club for such a short amount of time that impact and separation are in essence the same . . .
If the clubhead and face are moving in a circle and the ball stays on the clubface for any length of time, then there is an effect.
There has to be some ultra high speed ball impact footage that can help determine how much the face angle changes. Although, from our POV, the hinge action that is applied during the capture would be an important variable.
If the clubhead and face are moving in a circle and the ball stays on the clubface for any length of time, then there is an effect.
Thanks. The above is exactly what I'm thinking when I read about the mentioned subject. There is an effect, no matter, even if, say, a human mind can't comprehend such a limited timeframe (just as an example of what might be a very limited timeframe).
. . . there by making hinge action "obsolete". Therein lies the "controversy" of the people who want to rip Mr. Kelley's science.
Bucket, thanks for the links but be sure that this thread was for discussion of how we to explain why the ball behaves differently when we use different hinges...is it real or just d-plane with a "seems as if"....it is not intended to rip Homer's work...but equally we should not fear reaching a conclusion that differs from HK.
PLEASE DO NOT EQUATE "D-PLANE" WITH ANY OTHER TGM QUALIFIED INSTRUCTORS WORK (see, not just Ben Hogan and Homer who can use caps for effect!). It is Dr. T's phrase as far as i am aware...
For those who state that Hinge action is just altering the clubface at impact...hence d-plane alignments at impact... does anyone have proof that the clubface behaves differently PRE-IMPACT for horizontal hinge versus vertical hinge which we obviously feel as though they occur through impact??
ie. "the club is preparing pre-impact to get to a different destination post impact" ...as clubhead travel differs post impact for horizontal and vertical hinge actions.
AGAIN, I stress keep this is meant to be a non-patronising / non-confrontational discussion...Thanks - keep your thoughts coming.
Bucket, thanks for the links but be sure that this thread was for discussion of how we to explain why the ball behaves differently when we use different hinges...is it real or just d-plane with a "seems as if"....it is not intended to rip Homer's work...but equally we should not fear reaching a conclusion that differs from HK.
PLEASE DO NOT EQUATE "D-PLANE" WITH ANY OTHER TGM QUALIFIED INSTRUCTORS WORK (see, not just Ben Hogan and Homer who can use caps for effect!). It is Dr. T's phrase as far as i am aware...
For those who state that Hinge action is just altering the clubface at impact...hence d-plane alignments at impact... does anyone have proof that the clubface behaves differently PRE-IMPACT for horizontal hinge versus vertical hinge which we obviously feel as though they occur through impact??
ie. "the club is preparing pre-impact to get to a different destination post impact" ...as clubhead travel differs post impact for horizontal and vertical hinge actions.
AGAIN, I stress keep this is meant to be a non-patronising / non-confrontational discussion...Thanks - keep your thoughts coming.
Sorry . . . I didn't think you put it up as a rip at all. Certainly didn't mean to imply that you were disparaging Mr. K's work by opening the discussion. Based on this cat's work there are certainly some areas where The Machine and this dude don't match.
But I would say that BOTH Mr. K and Jerkingsome or whatever his name is both understand that the face controls the starting direction and the divergence of the path to the face makes the ball curve due to tilting of the axis it is spining on . . . and Mr. K didn't have no 'puter.
Bottom line swing right of the face ball hooks . . . swing left of the face and it fades. There are some big pieces in this regards to shaft lean as well and how you get your hands on the club.
You're cool with me and my post wasn't meant to make you into no criminal.
Hybrid Mode
