Thanks for being helpful, but you do not understand my physical limitations. You seem to be presuming that I simply don't know what to do.
You wrote-: "Jeff . . . . I don't know if I get your test deal . . . dude you have plenty of differentiation of the hips shoulders on that backstroke! Just do the same thing on the down stroke???
You don't get it. I can turn my hips back enough and my upper torso enough, but I cannot reverse the process as required. In the downswing, using an active pivot action, the hips need to move first while the shoulders are held back - that creates secondary axis tilt and then the right shoulder can secondarily come downplane (instead of roundhousing). I cannot move my right hip forward in a shift-rotation manner without my right shoulder immediately rotating forward - it is like there is a stiff metal rod going up my spine that attaches my pelvis to my shoulders. If my right pelvis moves 3-6" forward in the downswing then my right shoulder immediately moves 3-6" as well. Any attempt to square my hips at the start of the downswing- like Hogan in his video lesson - causes my right shoulder to move horizontally by about 6-8" in an OTT move.
You also wrote-: "Your arms are probably getting blocked from going back up and in because your right hip is in the way."
No way! I have no problem moving my right hip back in the backswing and it certainly doesn't prevent my arms from moving correctly.
You also wrote-: "Also your arms are getting way lifted off of your chest . . . I mean if you want to get on the turned shoulder plane that's fine but you got some excessive lifting. --- You'll have to get your hands in and deeper. And your right elbow won't shoot up and off your body as bad."
I know all that because its is very simple to understand. However, I cannot get my left arm back along a shallow path that allows my hands to get in deeper below my right shoulder - because my left scapula doesn't move, which means that my left shoulder socket doesn't move around enough (despite a relatively good upper torso rotation). I have won many friendly bets from other golfers who have tried to prove me wrong. They have pushed with all their strength on my left shoulder to get it to move more around to the right during my backswing, and they cannot get my left shoulder socket to move around enough despite maximum push-pressure. I could be a millionaire by now if I placed huge money bets on this particular challenge.
You are correct that my right elbow shoots off like that because my hands don't get deep enough. However, I cannot avoid the right elbow positional problem because I simply cannot get my hands deep enough. The combination of high hands (near the neck) and a roundhousing right shoulder problem due to a lack of hula hula flexibility is why I cannot use the standard active pivot action. That's the whole point of my thread.
Thanks for being helpful, but you do not understand my physical limitations. You seem to be presuming that I simply don't know what to do.
You wrote-: "Jeff . . . . I don't know if I get your test deal . . . dude you have plenty of differentiation of the hips shoulders on that backstroke! Just do the same thing on the down stroke???
You don't get it. I can turn my hips back enough and my upper torso enough, but I cannot reverse the process as required. In the downswing, using an active pivot action, the hips need to move first while the shoulders are held back - that creates secondary axis tilt and then the right shoulder can secondarily come downplane (instead of roundhousing). I cannot move my right hip forward in a shift-rotation manner without my right shoulder immediately rotating forward - it is like there is a stiff metal rod going up my spine that attaches my pelvis to my shoulders. If my right pelvis moves 3-6" forward in the downswing then my right shoulder immediately moves 3-6" as well. Any attempt to square my hips at the start of the downswing- like Hogan in his video lesson - causes my right shoulder to move horizontally by about 6-8" in an OTT move.
You also wrote-: "Your arms are probably getting blocked from going back up and in because your right hip is in the way."
No way! I have no problem moving my right hip back in the backswing and it certainly doesn't prevent my arms from moving correctly.
You also wrote-: "Also your arms are getting way lifted off of your chest . . . I mean if you want to get on the turned shoulder plane that's fine but you got some excessive lifting. --- You'll have to get your hands in and deeper. And your right elbow won't shoot up and off your body as bad."
I know all that because its is very simple to understand. However, I cannot get my left arm back along a shallow path that allows my hands to get in deeper below my right shoulder - because my left scapula doesn't move, which means that my left shoulder socket doesn't move around enough (despite a relatively good upper torso rotation). I have won many friendly bets from other golfers who have tried to prove me wrong. They have pushed with all their strength on my left shoulder to get it to move more around to the right during my backswing, and they cannot get my left shoulder socket to move around enough despite maximum push-pressure. I could be a millionaire by now if I placed huge money bets on this particular challenge.
You are correct that my right elbow shoots off like that because my hands don't get deep enough. However, I cannot avoid the right elbow positional problem because I simply cannot get my hands deep enough. The combination of high hands (near the neck) and a roundhousing right shoulder problem due to a lack of hula hula flexibility is why I cannot use the standard active pivot action. That's the whole point of my thread.
Jeff.
OK Boss you know your body better'n I do . . . but you seem to have excuted hula hula on the backstroke pretty good.
I applaud your persistence in asking probing questions. Getting to the nitty-gritty details can sometimes be very instructive.
You seem to be implying that I am capable of good hula hula flexibility in my backswing.
That's not true. Consider the facts.
Look at Anthony Kim's torso rotation in the backswing. Note that his torso has an even rightwards slope. That is frequently seen in good golfers and it is due to the even spread of rotation over the entire thoracic spine and upper lumbar spine. Each of AK's thoracic and upper lumbar vertebra are capable of about 2-6 degrees of rotational movement. That allows him to spread the rotational load (difference between the degree of thoracic and pelvic rotation) over 12 thoracic vertebra and about 3-4 lumbar vertebra. So, if AK rotates his pelvis 45 degrees and his upper torso 105 degrees, then the 60 degrees of rotational difference can be roughly evenly spread over those 15+ vertebra.
I have a very inflexible lumbar and lower thoracic spine which is incapable of any rotation. The only part of my spine that can rotate is my mid-upper thoracic spine. Note that I rotate my pelvis about 50 degrees and my upper torso only about 70+ degrees. That means that I only have 20+ degrees of upper torso rotation. Also, note where the rotation occurs. It only occurs at the level of my mid-upper thorax level. That causes me to have a slight reverse pivot as I try to torque my upper torso against the resistance of a more restricted lower body turn. Also, if you look carefully, I don't really rotate perpendicularly around my spine in the backswing - I tend to lift up in the late backswing as I pull my right shoulder back. You can see that I can get my right shoulder more targetwards than I can get my left shoulder anti-targetwards, and that is part of my lifting maneuver.
So, I do not exhibit good hula hula flexibility in the backswing. I can torque my upper torso by about 20-30 degrees because my lower torso is grounded through my "fixed" right knee and my feet.
Now consider the downswing. I exhibit far less "apparent" hula hula flexibility in the downswing because my upper torso is ungrounded and free-floating. Therefore, when I torque my pelvis when using an active pivot action, my upper torso (which is free-floating) reacts immediately and also rotates. I am not capable of generating any dynamic X-factor (increased torso-pelvic separation) at the start of the downswing. I have learnt how to deal with this limitation by performing a compensatory action. Knowing that my right shoulder is going to turn immediately when I start my pelvic shift-rotation move, I immediately actively drive my right shoulder downplane even though I haven't yet developed any secondary axis tilt. That means that my shoulders are not turning perpendicularly around my spine. I can do it - but is doesn't feel comfortable. Also, that right shoulder downwards thrust downplane at the very start of the downswing can cause a disruption of my kinetic sequencing, which is not a good thing. That's why I do better with a reactive pivot action. I can throw my hands down-and-out on the plane before my torso reacts, and I am better able to generate a more synchronised, smoother swing action using this type of pivot action.
Obviously, a golfer cannot drive the ball as far using a reactive pivot action swing than a pivot action swing. How much loss in distance do you think will occur when using an arm swing versus an active pivot-driven swing in a good golfer?
I applaud your persistence in asking probing questions. Getting to the nitty-gritty details can sometimes be very instructive.
You seem to be implying that I am capable of good hula hula flexibility in my backswing.
That's not true. Consider the facts.
Look at Anthony Kim's torso rotation in the backswing. Note that his torso has an even rightwards slope. That is frequently seen in good golfers and it is due to the even spread of rotation over the entire thoracic spine and upper lumbar spine. Each of AK's thoracic and upper lumbar vertebra are capable of about 2-6 degrees of rotational movement. That allows him to spread the rotational load (difference between the degree of thoracic and pelvic rotation) over 12 thoracic vertebra and about 3-4 lumbar vertebra. So, if AK rotates his pelvis 45 degrees and his upper torso 105 degrees, then the 60 degrees of rotational difference can be roughly evenly spread over those 15+ vertebra.
I have a very inflexible lumbar and lower thoracic spine which is incapable of any rotation. The only part of my spine that can rotate is my mid-upper thoracic spine. Note that I rotate my pelvis about 50 degrees and my upper torso only about 70+ degrees. That means that I only have 20+ degrees of upper torso rotation. Also, note where the rotation occurs. It only occurs at the level of my mid-upper thorax level. That causes me to have a slight reverse pivot as I try to torque my upper torso against the resistance of a more restricted lower body turn. Also, if you look carefully, I don't really rotate perpendicularly around my spine in the backswing - I tend to lift up in the late backswing as I pull my right shoulder back. You can see that I can get my right shoulder more targetwards than I can get my left shoulder anti-targetwards, and that is part of my lifting maneuver.
So, I do not exhibit good hula hula flexibility in the backswing. I can torque my upper torso by about 20-30 degrees because my lower torso is grounded through my "fixed" right knee and my feet.
Now consider the downswing. I exhibit far less "apparent" hula hula flexibility in the downswing because my upper torso is ungrounded and free-floating. Therefore, when I torque my pelvis when using an active pivot action, my upper torso (which is free-floating) reacts immediately and also rotates. I am not capable of generating any dynamic X-factor (increased torso-pelvic separation) at the start of the downswing. I have learnt how to deal with this limitation by performing a compensatory action. Knowing that my right shoulder is going to turn immediately when I start my pelvic shift-rotation move, I immediately actively drive my right shoulder downplane even though I haven't yet developed any secondary axis tilt. That means that my shoulders are not turning perpendicularly around my spine. I can do it - but is doesn't feel comfortable. Also, that right shoulder downwards thrust downplane at the very start of the downswing can cause a disruption of my kinetic sequencing, which is not a good thing. That's why I do better with a reactive pivot action. I can throw my hands down-and-out on the plane before my torso reacts, and I am better able to generate a more synchronised, smoother swing action using this type of pivot action.
Obviously, a golfer cannot drive the ball as far using a reactive pivot action swing than a pivot action swing. How much loss in distance do you think will occur when using an arm swing versus an active pivot-driven swing in a good golfer?
Jeff.
Jeff . . . . I don't think you're talking about Mr. Kelley's Hula Hula . . . let's define terms first . . . . then you can tell me whether you can do Hula Hula or not . . . .
7-14 HIP TURN The Hip Turn as a Stroke Component is strictly the product of the Knee Bend and the Waist Bend. Not otherwise could the weight be shifted and the Shoulder Turn Axis be tilted without moving the Head. A Hula Hula flexibility allows the Hips and Shoulders to be independent but coordinate and so avoid Right Elbow – and – Hip interference and its “Roundhousing” Throwaway (4-D-0) during the Start Down – the Delivery Line ROLL PREPARATION (12-3-22).
Except for its being, in itself, the Weight Shift, the Hip Turn is a motion permitting – rather than causing – the other effects, actions and motions of the Pivot. Weight Shift is strictly a HIP MOTION. Substituting a Head Motion and/or Knee Motion will make Swaying inevitable.
The Hip Turn can be used to control or modify Hip Action Variations and prevent Zone #1 (9-1) exaggerations. See 2-N and 7-16.
Can you push your hips forward with out having your head move forward? If not maybe you need to build a stroke that will comply to those limitations. There are plenty of patterns that are very viable. I would start with Circle Delivery as it doesn't require Axis Tilt.
To your point of reactive pivot vs. active pivot . . . depends . . . . I think speed can certainly be a factor but how many MPH do you think you are going to give up? It was Mr. Kelley's assertion that Zone 2 is the power zone. Based on what you have put up we can debate your Hula Hula acumen but I don't think we can debate whether or not you have arms .
So I would say that yes the pivot can certainly ramp up speed but if you are going to believe Mr. K the real speed comes from the power package and #2 is the velocity accumulator. Soooooo . . . you know this anyway . . . .
I'd say the ball "perfers" being struck solid and square to a bunch of speed that has fleeting alignments. Comparing yourself to Anthony Kim is severe. Kinda like Brad Pitt trying to smoke me in a wing eating contest. Not many people are going to be able to generate the kind of speed he does.
So the ball knows speed . . .but also knows face and path and solid contact . . . I'd say if you can't have some kind of mutant level pivot than you better dang sure figure out a way to pivot to maximize hitting the ball solid which is basically controlling low point. So you may not have a Ferrari pivot but you can SWING or DRIVE your arm/arms. Solid and a matching face/path with reasonable speed trumps just pure speed.
So the answer to your question is . . . sorta, maybe, yes, no.
But I still submit that you have shifted your hips in the backstroke and your axis is tilted to the right . . . . .
__________________
Aloha Mr. Hand
Behold my hands; reach hither thy hand
Last edited by 12 piece bucket : 12-04-2008 at 11:39 AM.
I only use part of HK's definition of hula hula flexibility.
He states-: "A Hula Hula flexibility allows the Hips and Shoulders to be independent but coordinate."
I simply think of hula hula flexibility as the ability to rotate your pelvis in the downswing without necessarily rotating your shoulders concurrently in the same direction.
Here is a nice practical demonstration of excellent hula hula flexibility where the dancer can move her pelvis in one direction while she moves her upper torso in the opposite direction.
I only use part of HK's definition of hula hula flexibility.
He states-: "A Hula Hula flexibility allows the Hips and Shoulders to be independent but coordinate."
I simply think of hula hula flexibility as the ability to rotate your pelvis in the downswing without necessarily rotating your shoulders concurrently in the same direction.
Here is a nice practical demonstration of excellent hula hula flexibility where the dancer can move her pelvis in one direction while she moves her upper torso in the opposite direction.
Jeff.
I couldn't get the video? But what exactly does your definition of Hula Hula executed in the this fashion result in?
Mr. K is simply "tilting the axis" so the hands can stay on the face of the plane rather than getting drug out and over . . . . Hips control plane of shoulders which control hand path. I'm not sure this independent rotation concept isn't a recipe for a roundhouse . . . . but I would like to hear your reasoning as to the importance of your concept of hula hula.
__________________
Aloha Mr. Hand
Behold my hands; reach hither thy hand
Last edited by 12 piece bucket : 12-04-2008 at 12:16 PM.
I agree with HK - that the primary benefit of hula hula flexibility is to allow the right shoulder to descend downplane, and controlling the right shoulder's path helps control the hand path so that they can stay on the face of the plane.
That wasn't a video - it was simply an animated gif image.
I agree with HK - that the primary benefit of hula hula flexibility is to allow the right shoulder to descend downplane, and controlling the right shoulder's path helps control the hand path so that they can stay on the face of the plane.
That wasn't a video - it was simply an animated gif image.
Jeff.
Witcha . . . but isn't your definition of hula hula different for Homer's or have a misread it? I was just trying to figure out what all that X-factor stuff does exactly?
I think that the glossary's definition of Axis Tilt is relevant to HK's description of Hula Hula Flexibility.
Axis Tilt: "To change the plane of the Shoulder Turn without moving the Head, the golfer must tilt the shoulder axis by moving the Hips."
Note the WITHOUT MOVING THE HEAD! This is a straight on view not a birds eye X Factor deal.
An actual Hula dancer can move her hips laterally or rotationally with her head held still. Axis tilt in both directions.
Here are two relevant videos. The first from the original Charlie's Angels TV series. (Thats Burner in the back ground in the white safari suit dancing along.) And the second a belly dancer describing the "horizontal figure eight" albeit with a fare degree of double anchor. The figure eight being axis tilt with the right hip back, backing into transition, the move V.J. described.
Perhaps we have the making of a new "Macdonald" drill here, Lynn? Continuos figure eights with the knees pointing straight ahead , the shoulders square (but tilting) and the head held still?
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