You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
Originally Posted by Dariusz J.
It's not the question of my belief. I always tried to be objective and love the objective truth. Thus, I take seriously Mr.Nesbit's researches as well as e.g. Mr.Dante's ones. However, there is no final evidence for one or the other theory - otherwise, the discussion on this or the other forum would not have been necessary.
You can laugh at my V1 trial - and I understand it because I myself stated that it's a imprecise tool - but, it shows what it shows. This is what I wanted to say, nothing more.
Cheers
To some I'm sure many questions remain unresolved. I'm not sure specifically what those questions are though.
COAM has absolutely nothing to do with either the release in particular of the golf swing in general. Furhermore not all golfers hands slow dow before impact. Nesbits data proves it. These are statements of FACT not opinion. In otherwords that IS the truth but then some people cannot handle the truth, particulary if it does not fit with their preconceptions It doesn't matter to me what you or anyone else choose believe. Have a good weekend.
Last edited by no_mind_golfer : 10-31-2008 at 07:42 PM.
OK, give me a link to a FO vid of a golfer that accelerates hands linear velocity - I'll convert it and compare to my YouTube findings. I am sure you know, at least, names of golfers whose hands are not slowing down. Have a great weekend too.
Stands for Conservation of Angular Momentum (I alpha^2) where alpha is angular acceleration.
At the top of the back swing... How much angular momentum is there?
1/3 of the way down.. How much?
Half Way down?
and at impact?
Easy right? At the top there is none... zero... zip... nada. Things are stopped. 1/3 of the way down... There is some.. things have begun to move
1/2 way down... There's even more... now the golfswing is really picking up speed and starting to rotate fast. Finally at impact? Maximum momentum, maximum rotation *that is unless you subscribe to some ignoramus teacher's ridiculous theory of kinetic chain snapping in which case you've probably lurched yourself to a halt and incurred a mishit*
If angular momentum is increasing as the downswing progress' all but the dimmest among us must agree, then by definition angular momentum it is NOT being conserved. (If as time progresses you have more or less of somthing it is NOT being conserved). COAM does not apply to the golfswing and I refer you to any physics or mechanics textbook if you disagree with this definition of COAM.
Dante wrote a pretty good book back in the 60's (5 magic moves). In it he had stroboscopic pictures of one golfer whose hands slowed down before impact (they almost came to a halt in fact). Dante extrapolated from his sample of one (never a good thing to do btw) to all golfers.
Since he did not know how to explain this observation himself, Dante consulted a physics teacher who told him the golfers hands slowed down because of COAM (sounds good in theory.... but wrong ... for the reason given above). Also note the: "Appeals to authority" logical fallacy. He's a physics teacher so he knows right? wrong. Perhaps Dante should have consulted with more experts to confirm the firsts explanation and golf instruction would not be mired in this COAM myth. Hind sight is of course 20-20.
It turns out very few people swing a golf club like Dante's stoboscope model anyway. In fact Nesbit's data shows most golfers (especially the better ones) accelerate their hands all the way to impact. (See figure 4 http://www.motionanalysis.com/pdf/2005_nesbit.pdf ) BTW... Nesbit used the finest "3d machine" available to acquire his measurements. Some people choose to ignore that which does not fit their preconceived notions especially slayers of windmills.
PS
Check out fig. 7 of the linked pdf. That's angular velocity. For those who did not make it to (or forgot) calculus, the slope of that curve is angular acceleration. Note its increasing for all golfers right up to impact. Angular momentum IS NOT being conserved during the golf swing. Have a good day!
No mind golfer,
appear to me you have limited knowledge to the golfswing, what also concerns me is you have never studied biomechanics, so with out measured data how can you make judgment, the body nor the arms continue to speed up in the golf swing. each body segment hits a peak speed and decelerates even the arms, at the point of impact all moving body parts are decelerating hips,shoulders arms and hands.
I think you need to read 2-m-1 to learn and understand conservation of momentum in golf and 2-E
it eludes me how you can past judgment when you have not data or background in golf biomechanics. I know for a fact you haven't cause if you did you would know all body segments accelerate, but before impact are all decelerating Then you would fully understand stand how coam works in the golf swing.
what truth are you presenting, I swear you and jeff are mates , how can you present truth when you have no data or research in how the human body functions in the golf swing. your going off opinion not research or facts here.
The body speeds up this is hilarious
Last edited by biomechanic : 11-01-2008 at 12:01 PM.
Reason: spelling
It appears all you know how to do is toss out insults and try to present yourself as an expert yet there is never any (technical) substance in your posts. Are you insecure? Are you incapable of communicating in a technical manner? Can you for once base an argument on science? The Ad Homenim logical fallacy will not work with me.
Here's what you do... You state exactly what is wrong then explain exactly why it is wrong. Detail your work then maybe a discussion can take place. You should have learned how to communicate in school. You did attend school did you not? I assume you graduated from high school.
Originally Posted by biomechanic
No mind golfer,
appear to me you have limited knowledge to the golfswing, what also concerns me is you have never studied biomechanics, so with out measured data how can you make judgment, the body nor the arms continue to speed up in the golf swing. each body segment hits a peak speed and decelerates even the arms, at the point of impact all moving body parts are decelerating hips,shoulders arms and hands.
I think you need to read 2-m-1 to learn and understand conservation of momentum in golf and 2-E
it eludes me how you can past judgment when you have not data or background in golf biomechanics. I know for a fact you haven't cause if you did you would know all body segments accelerate, but before impact are all decelerating Then you would fully understand stand how coam works in the golf swing.
what truth are you presenting, I swear you and jeff are mates , how can you present truth when you have no data or research in how the human body functions in the golf swing. your going off opinion not research or facts here.
The body speeds up this is hilarious
NM can you put your noodle on a new tangent and examine the science coam principle in relation to the center of mass..ie pivot.
OK I get....
noodle = brain
tangent = thought process
After that you lose me.
I'm science based. I go by numbers (data). I refer you to figure 7 or linked pdf (above) there is you angular velocity for 4 different golfers. Its increasing (at slightly varying rates) for all golfers. Its not constant and there for the concept of COAM does not apply.
Help me try to understand where you're coming from. What is it about rejecting the COAM myth that troubles you? For instance is it because you've come to believe COAM is responsible for the release? Just asking.
I'm science based. I go by numbers (data). I refer you to figure 7 or linked pdf (above) there is you angular velocity for 4 different golfers. Its increasing (at slightly varying rates) for all golfers. Its not constant and there for the concept of COAM does not apply.
Help me try to understand where you're coming from. What is it about rejecting the COAM myth that troubles you? For instance is it because you've come to believe COAM is responsible for the release? Just asking.
C
no nmgolfer im interested in delayed hip action..for e.g move the center of mass to the left earlier while the shoulders/arms/hands are still loading . So they move forward on an angle..bit of a lull..and then boom
No I dropped out of school and I live on the street.
I think you need to read 2-m-1 and 2-e so you understand conservation of momentum in golf.
Wow the paper is only three years old , interesting present me with data using opti sensors and using vicon system for starters.
they are only measuring certain segments,they are using a cheap 6 dof system which is limited to data.
how about providing data which they are using the full body suit you wear which has opti sensors and every body part and every muscle and both hands as well.
If your placing your beliefs on this one paper whom's technology limits them to measuring data don't waste my time.
It's funny you a man of science base, interesting I wondering if you can read,
I think you need to re read the paper to understand what it is they are studying exactly, I don't believe they are talking about ball compression or how hard they are driving the right arm home to compress the ball, I don't see they are talking about the angles of the right hand at all. hmmm
Now I'm starting to question how much you do know about science and what you know about golf,
Golf is easy to answer very little. have you ever study T.G.M, indicate you haven't.
don't waste my time with data that isn't using the best technology ,
that data was almost as good as K-vest.
clothes move in motion so the sensors would have moved, I bet you haven't seen the research papers they did on this.
I love their little quote stating they used snug clothing.
Most researchers would have thrown this paper over their shoulder once they read this.
good to see you know your a man of science based and not technology based as well. This way we can accept the fact that you based you belief on science and entrusted these guys were using state of the art technology.
don't be to upset. I understand your a man of science. And your not up to speed with technology and measuring systems, Our understand the difference between all the 6 dof systems out there.
One thing I've liked about this forum is that for the most part the posts are cordial and there is an effort to "understand and learn". For that to happen - two people must provide new information and using reason - eventually come to a common understanding. There is always a place for debate or strong disagreement but when you run out of "ammunition" it's probably time to stop and walk away instead heading down the road of name calling or degrading the other persons character in order to "win". In fact if you do that - you probably don't have the information to support your statements- fully i.e. to have someone else understand them.
Since I'm not an owner of this site nor an administrator of this site- you don't need to listen to me - my only credentials are 900+ posts - some good - some bad - but here's just a thought -
1) if you've posted on this thread
2) if you are new to the forum with less than 20 lifetime posts
3) if you've re-read your posts and found that you've more than once personally attacked the character of another forum member (whether provoked or not)
4) Then, consider either changing your approach or leave!
I've got a nice neighborhood and nice neighbors - we have certain rules in the Association, certain standards of conduct. You're probably accustomed to living in today's world where anything goes- where there is no black and white - where you feel some fundamental right to act however you want - you know - "free speech"- if that's the case then GET OUT OF MY NEIGHBORHOOD!
__________________
Life Goal- Developing a new theory of movement based on Brain Science
Interests - Dabbling with insanity
Hobbies- Creating Quality
Ya, know what you mean Mike. But I dont want these guys to stop outright.
Bio, NM. Why dont you debate a single aspect of the swing that relates to the topic at hand. Something that we golf practitioners would find of practical interest.
I am interested in the hips for instance. My first TGM based instructor (not an AI I should mention) suggested that it isnt how fast you spin your hips but rather how quickly you stop them that adds to the clubhead's speed.
Personally I dont subscribe to either extreme. I can spin or spin and brake my hips without my arms even moving an inch if I wish.
In regard to maximizing clubhead speed should the hips:
-spin hard?
-brake hard?
-merely smoothly initiate?
It doesn't matter to me what you or anyone else choose believe. Have a good weekend. 
this is hilarious
Linear Mode
