The difference between #1....is very little,and from #2 to#5-how far away are the trees?,how close is the camera?
There is a horizontal grass line in the background. Compare photos #1 and #6 and see how much his head has dropped. It's dropped even more in the Follow-through (#7).
Draw a vertical line down from his left ear . The left ear is quite a bit farther from the inside left heel in #6 as compared to #1 and and even more so in #7.
From this I conclude that his head is moving down and back from the Top into Impact and continues to move down and back even more from Impact to Follow-through.
If you all agree that this full swing (pages 124-125) represents a Head Pivot Center, that's fine. I just see a ton of head movement there.
Thanks Yoda. I think that washes away many misconceptions of you disliking the base of the neck Pivot Center (or "point-between-the-shoulders" as you put it).
I have one more question. Does that mean if a student comes to you without the concept of a Pivot Center, you will arbitarily teach him the Head Pivot Center since it's recommended by Homer? Or could you teach him to use a base of the neck Pivot Center depending on his current motion.
On Full Stokes, I just ask people to do their best to keep their Head "steady." And I don't mention that if the student is doing a reasonably good job already. I never mention the "point-between-the-shoulders." No bias here...I just see no need. The student will do what is natural for him or her, and whatever that is, I usually just accept it. Seriously.
And unless the student is hanging the Head well to the right in the Stance, I leave its overall position alone. To help the student become familiar with a proper Head position, I will sometimes put him into an Impact Fix to show where the Head will be at Impact. I then recommend that it should stay as close to possible to that location.
On Short Strokes, I insist on a centered Head. There is no time to be shifting about, and with the Head centered, the Left Shoulder (and hence, Low Point) will be where it needs to be for a good Hands-in-front Impact. Most students hang their Head too far back behind the Ball in the Short Strokes, and usually wind up scuffing the Ball as a result. A Centered Head and the Flat Left Wrist techniques always works its magic here.
Interestingly, with TOUR players or with good amateurs who genuinely want to improve, I can be -- and often am -- more demanding. But only with video support and only after a crystal-clear discussion of what is happening in the current motion and why. Only then will I initate a discussion aimed at establishing and maintaining a Head location different from the one they are accustomed to using.
As an example, the weekend of the British Open, Brian Gay and I worked real hard on first understanding, and then implementing, a more Stationary Head. This is a major change for anybody, particularly someone with habits as ingrained as those of a money-making PGA TOUR competitor.
Results?
Brian had a solid tournament the following week in Milwaukee and then tied for 15th (in a starting field of 156) at the next week's Buick Championship. So, at the very least, and in at least some cases, I can say that such an approach doesn't mess people up!
If you all agree that this full swing (pages 124-125) represents a Head Pivot Center, that's fine. I just see a ton of head movement there.
Okay. let's accept what you see. Now let's see if we can convert this observation into information useful to the player.
Assume that Billy is your student and, with regards to his Pivot, wants to know, first, what he is doing now, and second, what (if anything) he should be doing to get better (and remember, these guys will kill for one-quarter of a shot per round). He also expects you to justify your recommendation.
Some tough questions need to be addressed:
If it is not a Head Pivot Center, then is it a Between-the-Shoulders Pivot Center?
In your opinion, does he have a Pivot Center at all?
If not, do you think he should?
If so, which one?
In other words -- seriously, Bob -- if he were your student, what would you tell him to do...and why?
Okay. let's accept what you see. Now let's see if we can convert this observation into information useful to the player.
Assume that Billy is your student and, with regards to his Pivot, wants to know, first, what he is doing now, and second, what (if anything) he should be doing to get better (and remember, these guys will kill for one-quarter of a shot per round). He also expects you to justify your recommendation.
Some tough questions need to be addressed:
If it is not a Head Pivot Center, then is it a Between-the-Shoulders Pivot Center?
In your opinion, does he have a Pivot Center at all?
If not, do you think he should?
If so, which one?
In other words -- seriously, Bob -- if he were your student, what would you tell him to do...and why?
Thus far, no one will even agree that BC's head is moving back and down from the Top to Follow-through. Can we get a yes or no on this?
I thought a head pivot center sequence would look like Diane in Chapter Nine [6th Edition]as seen in photos 9-2-1#1 (Preliminary Address), 9-2-2 #1 (Impact Fix), 9-2-10 #1 (Impact) and 9-2-11 #1 (Follow-through). She doesn't look like BC to me.
If Casper's sequence from the Top on pages 144-145 is, in actual fact, a head pivot center sequence, then I obviously don't know what a HPC is or what it's supposed to look like.
Thus far, no one will even agree that BC's head is moving back and down from the Top to Follow-through. Can we get a yes or no on this?
I thought a head pivot center sequence would look like Diane in Chapter Nine [6th Edition]as seen in photos 9-2-1#1 (Preliminary Address), 9-2-2 #1 (Impact Fix), 9-2-10 #1 (Impact) and 9-2-11 #1 (Follow-through). She doesn't look like BC to me.
If Casper's sequence from the Top on pages 144-145 is, in actual fact, a head pivot center sequence, then I obviously don't know what a HPC is or what it's supposed to look like.
Just looking for some understanding here.
First of all, Bob, I appreciate your earlier observation that the Pivot is a two-way street. As such, the Pivot Center concept demands a constant Center in both directions. To the extent this does not occur, a compensation has been introduced. In my opinion, this is the case in the Casper Long-Iron sequence.
The many prior posts on this thread and on similar threads here and on Brian Manzella's site have focused on the Backstroke Pivot and its Center. Accordingly, the primary purpose of my publication of the Casper sequences was to provide an example of a Head Centered Backstroke. Hence, my directive in the introducing post to "Check out his Head Positon at the Top of each sequence." There is no question in my mind that, at least in these sequences, Billy is using such a Head Pivot Center. The intriguing question you have essentially introduced, then, is...
Does he change that Head Center to a Between-the-Shoulders Center on the Downstroke? Or, has he simply failed to achieve the perfection of the original Head Center?
I've already commented on the Bobbing in the Stroke. It is a common phenomenon often caused by a failure to position the Head at Address in its Impact Location (hence requiring the Bob as compensation). Regarding the backwards Sway, using that tilted, upside-down triangular shape in the background as the constant, I truly don't see the "ton" of movement you do. It is there, but photos are an exacting measure, and even the most talented among us are entitled to at least some margin of error. Homer Kelley knew that, of course, and that is why he always advised to set your Head where you want it at Impact and then do your best to maintain that location. In other words, centered between the feet (his ideal) or to the right or to the left -- wherever you put it -- leave it there, as nearly as you are humanly able to do so.
Personally, I think Billy is losing his original Head Pivot Center somewhat during the Downstroke. But, he is not reverting to a Between-the-Shoulders Center. The reason this is happening is first, the Bobbing phenomenon explained above, and second, the need for additional Axis Tilt in order to add Loft to the Hooded Clubface introduced by, in conventional terms, his extremely "strong" Grip (Left Hand Turned to Plane). If he didn't create this "artificial" Loft via the slight backward Sway, he couldn't get the Ball airborne with the lower-numbered Clubs. Essentially, he creates a new Head Center slightly down and to the right of the original Center, and he does so dynamically during the Downstroke. Given his original Address position and Grip, is is a necessary compensation.
Finally, I would like to add Photo 9-2-6 (the Top) to your list above. This photo clearly illustrates Homer Kelley's concept of a Head that Pivots on its base, yet remains Centered and Stationary (with regards to Location, not its necessary Pivot capability). This 'look' can be interpreted to mean a Between-the-Shoulders Center, but it is not. As I indicated in Post #26 above, the Ben Hogan sequence more closely approximates these ideals and, hence, Golfing perfection.
First of all, Bob, I appreciate your earlier observation that the Pivot is a two-way street. As such, the Pivot Center concept demands a constant Center in both directions. To the extent this does not occur, a compensation has been introduced. In my opinion, this is the case in the Casper Long-Iron sequence.
The many prior posts on this thread and on similar threads here and on Brian Manzella's site have focused on the Backstroke Pivot and its Center. Accordingly, the primary purpose of my publication of the Casper sequences was to provide an example of a Head Centered Backstroke. There is no question in my mind that, at least in these sequences, Billy is using such a Head Pivot Center. The intriquing question you have essentially introduced, then, is...
Does he change that Head Center to a Between-the-Shoulders Center on the Downstroke? Or, has he simply failed to achieve the perfection of the original Head Center?
I've already commented on the Bobbing in the Stroke. It is a common phenomenon often caused by a failure to position the Head at Address in its Impact Location (hence requiring the Bob as compensation). Regarding the backwards Sway, using that tilted, upside-down triangular shape in the background as the constant, I truly don't see the "ton" of movement you do. It is there, but photos are an exacting measure, and even the most talented among us are entitled to at least some margin of error. Homer Kelley knew that, of course, and that is why he always advised to set your Head where you want it at Impact and then do your best to maintain that location. In other words, centered between the feet (his ideal) or to the right or to the left -- wherever you put it -- leave it there, as nearly as you are humanly able to do so.
Personally, I think Billy is losing his original Head Pivot Center somewhat during the Downstroke. But, he is not reverting to a Between-the-Shoulders Center. The reason this is happening is first, the Bobbing phenomenon explained above, and second, the need for additional Axis Tilt in order to add Loft to the Hooded Clubface introduced by, in conventional terms, his extremely "strong" Grip (Left Hand Turned to Plane). If he didn't create this "artificial" Loft via the slight backward Sway, he couldn't get the Ball airborne with the lower-numbered Clubs. Essentially, he creates a new Head Center slightly down and to the right of the original Center, and he does so dynamically during the Downstroke. Given his original Address position and Grip, is is a necessary compensation.
Finally, I would like to add Photo 9-2-6 (the Top) to your list above. This photo clearly illustrates Homer Kelley's concept of a Head that Pivots on its base, yet remains Centered and Stationary (with regards to Location, not its necessary Pivot capability). This 'look' can be interpreted to mean a Between-the-Shoulders Center, but it is not. As I indicated in Post #26 above, the Ben Hogan sequence more closely approximates these ideals and, hence, Golfing perfection.
Thank you for the time and effort to explain this.
One last question: Does "between the shoulders" mean only the upper (cervical) spine or does it refer to the entire spine running longitudinally between the shoulders.
Thank you for the time and effort to explain this.
One last question: Does "between the shoulders" mean only the upper (cervical) spine or does it refer to the entire spine running longitudinally between the shoulders.
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