Hi folks,
My first post. I am a serious low handicap golfer finally looking to take my game to the next level and get back to being a competitive golfer. i have had lots of lessons from distinguished teachers but only recently have found my way working with an authorized Golfing Machine instructor. I do have one question about which I am not sure I have found an answer. From the top/end to start the downswing as a swinger I of course bump the left hip and sit down and tilt simultaneously. I don't do anything with my arms. My right shoulder drops on plane and begins to point along the plane line. so far so good. What I don't get is the connection between this 'move' which seems right and two other ideas that don't seem compatible with it. The first is the idea of a quick move to start the downswing which appears both in TGM and in Lynn Blake's video. The second and related idea is that the right shoulder creates a flywheel movement which helps the inert left arm separate from PP#4 and releases the associated power accumulator. I think of a flywheel as an outward motion, yet the right shoulder motion i am taught is both slow and down. I need some clarification including whether these two conceptions which seem conflicting to me are in fact compatible.
I hope my question was clear enough. First when I say I have had lots of lessons with distinguished teachers, I mean since the age of 12 when I took up the game over 40 years ago; and I mean to emphasize the fact that for the first time only now am I beginning really to understand the golf swing and to implement that understanding into my playing (hopefully), thanks to TGM (which I had read on my own in the 70s to no avail I fear, and again with even less comprehension in the 80s) I am genuinely puzzled about the movements of the right shoulder at the start of the downswing. I have always thought of its movement as reactive to the movement of the left side weight transfer and the pivot, which isn't to say that i haven't screwed it up more often than not. But I am confused about how it can be responsive, passive, leaving the arms behind on the start down, its direction down and its movement slow on the one hand and the source of a flywheel action and quick on the other. Any help will be helpful. I have a penchant for analysis and so any analytic discussion of this will be warmly appreciated.
I am sorry as well that I have not scoured the website/forum fully and may well have missed a prior discussion of this issue; if so, I would appreciate anyone simply directing me to prior discussions.
Thanks again for your kindness.
Jules
I say welcome even though I'm not one of the hosts
The shoulder turn is ideally flat through the back stroke.
On the down stroke the right shoulder should be turned on the swing plane, initially aiming at the ball. Of course this requires some work from hips, knees and feet so you get the appropriate forward and turn hip motion.
The fast transition you mention refers to 10-20-C Shoulder Turn Throw. Sharp initial accceleration of the Shoulder Turn against the #4 PP loading of the Left Arm automatically throws the Left Arm off the chest when the Pivot acceleration subsides.
Whether you get a fast transition will to a large degree depend on how soon your lower body starts the downswing. The fast loading action happens partly because the lower body starts the downswing before the arms and hands have fully completed it.
You have probably realized that TGM is a very right sided approach to the game. A lot attention is paid to the right side even for a pure swing. And not without plenty of good reason I might add.
Hi folks,
My first post. I am a serious low handicap golfer finally looking to take my game to the next level and get back to being a competitive golfer. i have had lots of lessons from distinguished teachers but only recently have found my way working with an authorized Golfing Machine instructor. I do have one question about which I am not sure I have found an answer. From the top/end to start the downswing as a swinger I of course bump the left hip and sit down and tilt simultaneously. I don't do anything with my arms. My right shoulder drops on plane and begins to point along the plane line. so far so good. What I don't get is the connection between this 'move' which seems right and two other ideas that don't seem compatible with it. The first is the idea of a quick move to start the downswing which appears both in TGM and in Lynn Blake's video. The second and related idea is that the right shoulder creates a flywheel movement which helps the inert left arm separate from PP#4 and releases the associated power accumulator. I think of a flywheel as an outward motion, yet the right shoulder motion i am taught is both slow and down. I need some clarification including whether these two conceptions which seem conflicting to me are in fact compatible.
Thanks,
Jules
Per GSED Tom Tomasello...10-20-C....the Right Shoulder triggers the start of the downstroke (not the hips or lower body), when the hands are the "End" assembly point per 10-21-C and 10-23-C. Tom taught both PGA and LPGA pros Jodie Mudd and Sally Little this move. Jodie moved up to 35 on the money list and went on to win the Players Championship and the Tour Championship and Sally went on to win one of the LPGA Majors, the du Maurier Classic in 1988...on an ABC interview shortly after winning the du Maurier...Sally credited her recent success through the coaching and swing changes made with Tom Tomasello!!!
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 01-27-2010 at 12:18 AM.
I basically agree with DG, but Hip Action does have a direct influence on the shoulder turn. Whether it is an area that needs attention depends on how well it works and how automatic it has become:
10-15 Hip action
10-15-A: Standard The Hips initiate and lead throughout - pulling the Shoulders in both directions
10-15-B: Delayed /..../ The hips then take over and lead and power the Downstroke Shoulder turn /....../
Then of course you have Short and Zero (C & D) that doesn't lead the shoulder turn in the down stroke but they are hardly relevant in full motion.
Per GSED Tom Tomasello...10-20-C....the Right Shoulder triggers the start of the downstroke (not the hips or lower body), when the hands are the "End" assembly point per 10-21-C and 10-23-C. Tom taught both PGA and LPGA pros Jodie Mudd and Sally Little this move. Jodie moved up to 35 on the money list and went on to win the Players Championship and the Tour Championship and Sally went on to win one of the LPGA Majors, the du Maurier Classic in 1988...on an ABC interview shortly after winning the du Maurier...Sally credited her recent success through the coaching and swing changes made with Tom Tomasello!!!
DG
I always enjoyed Sally Little. I didn't realize she was a TGMer. Very cool!
Kevin
__________________
I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
Per GSED Tom Tomasello...10-20-C....the Right Shoulder triggers the start of the downstroke (not the hips or lower body), when the hands are the "End" assembly point per 10-21-C and 10-23-C. Tom taught both PGA and LPGA pros Jodie Mudd and Sally Little this move. Jodie moved up to 35 on the money list and went on to win the Players Championship and the Tour Championship and Sally went on to win one of the LPGA Majors, the du Maurier Classic in 1988...on an ABC interview shortly after winning the du Maurier...Sally credited her recent success through the coaching and swing changes made with Tom Tomasello!!!
Ogrady was one of Homer's most fervent pupils (although he maintains TGM has tragic flaws) Speaking of controversies...the right shoulder business will get some people fired up! DG, correct me if I am wrong but TT felt that lowering the right shoulder would cause the axis of the spine to tilt and that it would clear the right hip as an effect. But the general TGM consensus is that shifting the hips laterally will tilt the axis of the spine and clear the right hip. Like many I have hit thousands of balls toying with this stuff. Like everything else you find what works for you and try to describe what you think you are doing as close to what you are actually doing. To this end TGM is without peer. Having said that this is what I think: I think that the hips initiate, but I feel as though my right shoulder comes hurtling down the face of the plane. When I think hips I hit it crap...when I think right shoulder I hit it well. Looking at my swing on video there is no doubt that my lower half moves first. In this pic I was focused on two things from a feel point of few. Extensor action and my right shoulder moving assertively down plane at the ball. The EA was there but as I mentioned in another post my right arm straightened a bit prematurely and I hit a solid pull-draw (carried about 20 yards shorter than usual due to the slighly closed face...but ran out nicely!)
I do not want to start another what tilts the axis war, or what starts the downswing but rather mention that the most enduring swing thought that I have ever had (other than "Don't choke you bastard!")is "Drive the right shoulder down until you hit dirt...then drive some more...you bastard!"My axis tilts, the right hip issue the right shoulder and elbow an invitation to proceed. Passing point: Getting my head more centered at address helped a lot. I used to set up with my head hanging over my right knee. This would result in too much axis tilt.
I am genuinely puzzled about the movements of the right shoulder at the start of the downswing. I have always thought of its movement as reactive to the movement of the left side weight transfer and the pivot, which isn't to say that i haven't screwed it up more often than not. But I am confused about how it can be responsive, passive, leaving the arms behind on the start down, its direction down and its movement slow on the one hand and the source of a flywheel action and quick on the other. Any help will be helpful. I have a penchant for analysis and so any analytic discussion of this will be warmly appreciated.
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