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Old 08-08-2009, 07:32 AM
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Daryl Daryl is offline
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I haven't been measured.

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2-K GENERATION OF ANGULAR MOTION Angular Motion is the result of at least two divergent forces. Such as, -A. Centripetal Force (the Lever Assemblies 6-A) diverting Linear Force (Right Arm Thrust 6-B-1) into a rotating motion (Hitting 10-19-A). Or – B. Turning its axis (the Body 2-M-4) to spin a flywheel – the Lever Assemblies (Swinging 10-19-C).

Rotation induces a Throw-Out action, pulling the centers of gravity of every moveable component, In-Line and On Plane with its axis or center, whether or not they were originally In-Line or On Plane. With a short radius it can accelerate easily, and quickly acquire considerable Angular Velocity. If a portion of this mass moves to a longer radius, the slowing effect (6-C-2-B) must be computed on the basis of the total mass AS LONG AS THE PORTION IS BEING PROPELLED BY THE TOTAL. That is – the slowdown would be in the same ratio that the portion has to the whole – the original central mass. This “Transfer of Momentum” process (10-19-C) eliminates Release Deceleration (6-F-0) but not Impact Deceleration (2-M-1). This Throw-Out action is termed herein as “Centrifugal Acceleration” to indicate that Centrifugal Force (Centrifugal Reaction), not muscle, is propelling the Secondary Lever Assembly (the Golf Club) into Impact. So Swingers are totally dependent on their skill at manipulating Centrifugal Force while Hitters are not. But study 4-D, 6-B-3-0, 6-R-0 and 7-2.

Compare the Primary Lever Assembly (6-A-2) with the common flail. While the “swingle” is seeking its “in-line” (full extension ) relation with the “handle” (catching up) there is “Centrifugal Acceleration.” When it becomes “in-line” (caught up) this settles into “Centrifugal (Angular) Momentum” (Full Extension). If it passes its “in-line” relation, it again seeks its “in-line” relation (backs up) and “Centrifugal Deceleration” sets in with a huge power loss. These three phases demonstrate what is termed herein “The Law of the Flail” – the Swingers primary concern.
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Have you ever seen a Pre-Stressed Golf Shaft going into Impact?

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If the Pressure Point pressure that produced the initial Clubshaft flex is maintained it will maintain the flex also. So the pressure will be a steady smooth Thrust form the entire Power Package Assembly, and will produce a constant rate of acceleration of the Primary Lever Assembly. If the Pivot moves the Right Shoulder at the same speed as the Power Package – or Primary Lever Assembly – the Accumulators will not be Released by this action until the Right Elbow can straighten. Even then the Clubhead Lag is still maintained – it has NO Release Point.
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Old 08-08-2009, 08:41 AM
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Weetbix Weetbix is offline
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Free energy ...
Where does the energy come from to accelarate the clubhead past your hands if your hands do not slow down? Newton and Gallileo pretty much nailed that you can't just create energy out of nothing. If your hands accelarate to top speed and then don't decelarate until after you've hit the ball then the clubhead cannot accelarate faster than the hands do and so you wont get a release.

You can't say that CF just does it. Put a free swinging arm on a wheel and keep spinning the wheel at a fixed speed - the arm will never catch up. It will only catch up if you decelarate the wheel. This is pretty basic physics.

Or am I missing something? You can't just take something someone says as gospel if the basic physics don't stack up. There must be something else added - so what do you understand that is?
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Old 08-08-2009, 09:09 AM
stinkler stinkler is offline
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Maybe someone could post a video of a functional swing where the hands do not slow down at/towards impact? I've been looking at the tube and I can't find one, certainly happens for Norman, Woods, Hogan, Ogilvy, Gay etc etc from what I can tell, even without state of the art measuring equipment.
Maybe Newton never played so his laws don't apply here?
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Old 08-08-2009, 09:34 AM
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Daryl Daryl is offline
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Originally Posted by stinkler View Post
Maybe someone could post a video of a functional swing where the hands do not slow down at/towards impact? I've been looking at the tube and I can't find one, certainly happens for Norman, Woods, Hogan, Ogilvy, Gay etc etc from what I can tell, even without state of the art measuring equipment.
Maybe Newton never played so his laws don't apply here?


Here is one of a hundred available. Look at Tiger on swings where he uses a sit-down procedure. Look at Sam Snead. Look at Ben Hogan. Look at any golfer using a Sit-Down procedure. That's the Tip off of a Sequenced Pivot. Following the sit-down is a Hip Rotation which drives the right shoulder, which drives the left shoulder, which pulls the left arm wedge through impact. Don't look at Freddy Couples (Circle path).

ALSO: Look for pro's that move their heads slightly to the right during the Backstroke and tend to keep it there. They are keeping weight on the right side and using ground pressures to crank the Hips around.

Swinging with the Right Arm off the club will help train a sequenced pivot. Learn to move the Left Arm Wedge with your Pivot. Don't move the club with arm or shoulder muscles. It's also enlightening to find that swinging with the Right Hand only on the Clubshaft, that your right arm is helpless unless you can lock the elbow into a stiff lever. Even then, the Right Shoulder has too much play to handle the power applied by the Hip Action. But, Both arms together, with Extensor action, (Power Package) can be violently Propelled with little physical effort. The Hands can direct all of this force.

When your Pivot can Power the Swing this way, you will no longer have "Blackout" during the Downstroke. When the Arms and Hands no longer apply any force to move the Hands, you will imediately sense the Tracing of the #3 Pressure Point. You will immediately begin to keep the #3 pressure Points relationship with the Plane Line. Educated Hands. Hands Controlled Pivot.

You will Float load, Drive Load, Drag Load at will. You'll hit draws or fades with the slightest Plane line, target line and stance line manipulations.

Watch Ben Doyle. All Pivot. Sequenced Pivot, super Hip Action. But he never tells you "How to". Ben thinks that everyone already knows. Ben says: "Load it, Store it, and then Shoot it". And people stand there and listen but are a little shy to ask: "What do you mean by "Shoot it"?

Last edited by Daryl : 08-08-2009 at 11:07 AM.
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Old 08-08-2009, 11:48 AM
david sandridge david sandridge is offline
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Putting it all together
I love Greg's Swing. He talks about constant motion and swinging faster will make you swing slower. I know I have stood behind Ben Doyle with my hand on his shoulders and they seem to be in a constant smooth motion. So.....
Feels are certainly different from reality.
I enjoy bio's contributions but here in the mountains of the carolinas I have no access to experts. So as I do forearm takeaway to the top I do not need to concern myself with anything but loading 2 and 3. Now once I am near top I need to create just the right amount of stretch in my shoulders when I reverse direction and sit down. I do not need to torque up my shoulders on the backswing. Now once I am sitting down balanced and "centered" as Ben says the shoulders will unwind and my hands will go down and foward releasing what I have stored shooting or throwing out at the ball. Now to get to finish and catch the dog by the tail I have to get the shoulders around and foward ending up on balance over my left foot. Now hopefull you biomechanic boys can tweek this with your knowledge. Certainly you can distill it down to a few paragraphs. I am a physician and even though you said it would take 50 pages, certainly you could distill it down for us. Greg teachs students constant motion. Lynn teaches karate chop, taking out the plane line, throw down and out from the wrist. All of these thoughts have worked well for me. Because i am intense I tend to overdo. that is why the SCC stuff you mention resonates. You can't squat to low to jump best. You can't over torque on the back swing. You can't hold the contraction too long etc.
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Old 08-08-2009, 11:56 AM
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Daryl Daryl is offline
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Hi David,

That's interesting. I was just reviewing Ben's 24 component video were he talks about the Pivot. I never realized how much time he spends on it.

Here are some interesting comments:

Quote:
"Feet dictate the whole motion"
"Put the same amount of pressure in the feet, into the ball".
I'm pretty sure that Ben understands ground forces. He also said that feet pressure is the first thing he learned in golf when he was a kid.
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Old 08-08-2009, 12:16 PM
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bioengine bioengine is offline
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Originally Posted by david sandridge View Post
I love Greg's Swing. He talks about constant motion and swinging faster will make you swing slower. I know I have stood behind Ben Doyle with my hand on his shoulders and they seem to be in a constant smooth motion. So.....
Feels are certainly different from reality.
I enjoy bio's contributions but here in the mountains of the carolinas I have no access to experts. So as I do forearm takeaway to the top I do not need to concern myself with anything but loading 2 and 3. Now once I am near top I need to create just the right amount of stretch in my shoulders when I reverse direction and sit down. I do not need to torque up my shoulders on the backswing. Now once I am sitting down balanced and "centered" as Ben says the shoulders will unwind and my hands will go down and foward releasing what I have stored shooting or throwing out at the ball. Now to get to finish and catch the dog by the tail I have to get the shoulders around and foward ending up on balance over my left foot. Now hopefull you biomechanic boys can tweek this with your knowledge. Certainly you can distill it down to a few paragraphs. I am a physician and even though you said it would take 50 pages, certainly you could distill it down for us. Greg teachs students constant motion. Lynn teaches karate chop, taking out the plane line, throw down and out from the wrist. All of these thoughts have worked well for me. Because i am intense I tend to overdo. that is why the SCC stuff you mention resonates. You can't squat to low to jump best. You can't over torque on the back swing. You can't hold the contraction too long etc.
Dave,
In Physics there is theory which I have been speaking of.
Theory is the understanding. Essentially what is important is how do you put the theory into practice.

As I have said previously is how do you train the body how to create the physics.
First step is to be tested to find out what your movement patterns are. Then you can build a program to train your how to create the right movement patterns.

I can continue to speak about theory for ever although people still won't be able to apply this in practice. It's not something you can go to the practice fairway and try to achieve.
You need to be given a program to train your body how to create the right movement patterns.

I speak to guys about TGM, they know the book exceptional well, but in practice they can't break a 100. Listen to them speak they sound like they can break par.

What is important is learning how to train your body how to put the theory into practice.
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Old 08-08-2009, 01:13 PM
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Daryl Daryl is offline
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Originally Posted by bioengine View Post
Dave,
In Physics there is theory which I have been speaking of.
Theory is the understanding. Essentially what is important is how do you put the theory into practice.

As I have said previously is how do you train the body how to create the physics.
First step is to be tested to find out what your movement patterns are. Then you can build a program to train your how to create the right movement patterns.

I can continue to speak about theory for ever although people still won't be able to apply this in practice. It's not something you can go to the practice fairway and try to achieve.
You need to be given a program to train your body how to create the right movement patterns.

I speak to guys about TGM, they know the book exceptional well, but in practice they can't break a 100. Listen to them speak they sound like they can break par.

What is important is learning how to train your body how to put the theory into practice.
Now that I break Par on a regular basis I have less misery. Breaking par has always been a milestone and millstone for people.

With TGM it's been a guided struggle and I feel confident each time I play. I don't wonder how I'll be hitting the ball that day or If I'll have my "A" game. My best game this year is five straight birdies. I've only had one Eagle in my life when the ball hit the cup from 60 yards.

Up till about a year ago, every Hole was a scramble but I still posted a respectable score. Now that my swing is 100 times better than it was two years ago, I don't consider the big difference to be the scoring, but the lack of scrambling and absence of struggle. It's just a different game all together than two years ago. Two years ago, the best I would score was a 79 and the worst an 84. Today the best I'll score is a 69 and the worst a 75. So I think that a Swing which I know is 100 times better is giving me an average of ten less strokes per round. I even think differently on the course today. I play some tough courses but from only 6900 yards. Recently I played some courses in Michigan at 7400 yards and didn't notice a big difference concerning the Yardage.

I will probably not be striking the Ball any better than I do today. My chipping (which is great) could save me another stroke per round, and if I make all putts (my putting is great too) within 12 feet I'll save another 5 strokes. I hit 85% of the Fairways and almost as many greens. I only drive the Ball 250 yards. So, I figure I need to improve 100 times more. That's not going to happen.

The big difference between 2 years ago and today, is Knowledge. And, a some trial and error. It seems like I've learned a little more with each year (theory, then application) and I've finally ran through all twenty-four components and then some. I've been learning what seems to be a lot these past two months, but I don't expect to shoot a 60 any time soon.

I wish I could point to one or two changes that made a big difference but I can't. But if could say anything that would make sense to others it would be that my Pivot does the work and my hands are finesse even on my longest drives. Oh, and I lost a lot of weight.

Last edited by Daryl : 08-08-2009 at 01:47 PM.
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Old 08-08-2009, 07:52 PM
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KevCarter KevCarter is offline
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Originally Posted by bioengine View Post
Dave,
I speak to guys about TGM, they know the book exceptional well, but in practice they can't break a 100. Listen to them speak they sound like they can break par.
WOW, did you really say that out loud?



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Old 08-08-2009, 08:50 PM
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12 piece bucket 12 piece bucket is offline
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Originally Posted by bioengine View Post
Dave,
In Physics there is theory which I have been speaking of.
Theory is the understanding. Essentially what is important is how do you put the theory into practice.

As I have said previously is how do you train the body how to create the physics.
First step is to be tested to find out what your movement patterns are. Then you can build a program to train your how to create the right movement patterns.

I can continue to speak about theory for ever although people still won't be able to apply this in practice. It's not something you can go to the practice fairway and try to achieve.
You need to be given a program to train your body how to create the right movement patterns.

I speak to guys about TGM, they know the book exceptional well, but in practice they can't break a 100. Listen to them speak they sound like they can break par.

What is important is learning how to train your body how to put the theory into practice.
Bio . . . Once a student is through with the process of learning the motions you prescribe . . . do they have their "own" pivot and hand path . . .. or are there "optimal" or "model" check points you are looking for?

Also . . . . what do you think about Mr. Kelley's concept of a centered pivot? And do you subscribe to a particular Plane Angle? Or is that an option?
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