Hey 12 Piece.... wow and many thanks for your time put into the response. I feel a little bad that you had to regress so far on my behalf. But I do appreciate it and you did tweak some new thought patterns that I need to take to the incubator.
No problem dude . . . here's how all that looks . . . Fire away with any questions.
Hey 12 Piece.... wow and many thanks for your time put into the response. I feel a little bad that you had to regress so far on my behalf. But I do appreciate it and you did tweak some new thought patterns that I need to take to the incubator.
I've been here 2 years (minus 3 days) and Bucket's post was very insightful for me. Never feel bad for being where you are in your development. Only through accepting where you are can you truly evaluate where you need to improve.
__________________
"In my experience, if you stay with the essentials you WILL build a repeatable swing undoubtedly. If you can master the Imperatives you have a champion" (Vikram).
The reason you can't sustain the lag is because you are so eager to make the club move fast (a reaction to the intent of "hitting it far"). So on a full shot you throw it away too early, which doesn't happen for your short chip. (bts)
First, thank you for your posts. I have learned so much from you.
Your post #7 on "Just Plane Confused" could be one of the best one ever written on this forum.
As the posts developed after that I got more confused especially after okie posted.
Eventually you responded to him with this statement:
You are having some issues with Grip Type, the #3 Accumulator (the angle and how it works), and Wrist Action/Hand Action.
I'd say we need to start with your grip type because that is going to have a huge impact on how your hands HAVE to move during the Release Motions.
How do you have your hand on the club pop intruction "strong" or pop instruction "weak"? See the pics on 10-2-B vs 10-2-D grip types.
This really got my incubator going as I thought that I had a commanded on these subjects.
So I'll bite. I have a 10-2-D grip. Could you respond with # 3 accumulator (angle and how it works) as well as wrist and hand action compatible with 10-2-D. I am a swinger if that matters.
You are correct . . .the book AIN'T easy. Homer was a pretty good writer but he was very ambitious to get it all said and said just one time so the book wouldn't be 800 pages long. The earlier editions were only around 130 to 150 pages long. I think the 3rd edition was the first to incorporate cross referencing.
Now let's tackle your second question . . .
First you have several things to consider conceptually to get one of the more difficult questions that people have asked . . .
So FIRST the Inclined Plane . . .
This ain't a very difficult one to get you can have 3 types of Basic Planes as Homer described them (Horizontal, Vertical, and Inclined). There is only 1 Horizontal and 1 Vertical right? But inbetween there is infinite Inclined (angled like a roof) Planes.
Next, the Sweetspot of the golf club (not the shaft for Homer's purposes) moves on the Inclined Plane. And for conceptual purposes let's say that the path that the Sweetspot travels on is a Circle. That circle is inscribed on the Inclined Plane.
Now that we got a circle on the plane, we must determine the center of that circle . . . which Homer said was the left shoulder. So imagine a ball down there on the ground on the plane. The sweetspot is traveling down and out and forward ON-PLANE. (Remember the a vertical plane would only have DOWN and UP. A horizontal plane would only have IN and OUT). Since we are on an Inclined Plane the clubmoves in 3 dimensions (Down, Out, and Forward ALL ON PLANE).
So imagine the club and sweetspot traveling down and out on plane and then touching the ball. Through that point Homer drew a line parallel to the ground from the Impact Point and named it the Impact Plane Line. The club and its sweetspot CONTINUE Down and Out ON PLANE AFTER IMPACT POINT UNTIL THE SWEETSPOT REACHES ITS LOWEST POINT----OPPOSITE THE LEFT SHOULDER THE CENTER OF THE STROKE. From the lowest point Homer drew a line and called it the LOW POINT PLANE LINE. For an iron shot the Low Point Plane Line is actually UNDERGROUND. So ALL STROKES SHOULD BE DRIVEN THROUGH IMPACT POINT AND CONTINUE DOWN AND OUT ON PLANE THROUGH LOW POINT.
After low point since the arms are connected to the shoulders the club begins to trave UP AND IN ON PLANE . . . but he effort is still down.
So that is the basics of the Geometry of the Circle.
So to your question . . . . for the club to be on plane the end of the club lowest to the ground POINTS AT THE PLANE LINE (Impact Plane Line) otherwise when the club is parallel to the ground it is parallel to the plane line. You can practice this with a laser gizmo or a two flashlights taped together or the club or a dowel. Get used to your hands pointing at the plane line down on the ground thru the entire stroke.
To get into the hand motions you are inquiring about . . . it is best to isolate the independently.
1. The #2 Accumlator - Cocking and Uncocking the Left Wrist. This is a HAMMERING MOTION. So grab a hammer slap your left had on it as if you were gripping a club. Now just hammer your desk or something. That is how the cocking and uncocking works in isolation on a VERTICAL PLANE. Fiddle with your grip on the hammer. Notice how if you grip it "weaker" your left wrist cock and uncocks and the wrist remains FLAT. Now if you grip it "strong" with your left palm Turned more on top of the hammer there is BENDING of the wrist with the Cocking and Uncocking. See how that works?
But this is on a Vertical Plane and we play golf on what??? An INCLINED PLANE. So grab your golf club with your left hand only. Go somewhere where you have a straight line to guide you. Stand to the line as if it were your target line (but if you are going to be a Machine cat it's the Plane Line). Now do your Left Wrist Cocking and Uncocking TO THAT PLANE LINE . . . while keeping the end of the club closest to the ground POINTING AT THE PLANE LINE. Cock it up On-Plane point at the Plane Line. Uncock it On-Plane to the Plane Line. Monkey with the "strong" Left Hand and the "weak" Left Hand grip. Notice how the "weak" grip requires Turning and Rolling of the hand to keep the club On-Plane? Notice how with the "strong" grip how the motion HAS TO BE DIFFERENT with the hands to keep the club pointing at the line as you cock and uncock?
Now for the #3 Accumulator. This is kind of a toughie to get. Go get your book and turn to chapter 4. Look at the picture in that chapter of LEVEL. Notice how it is REALLY close to UNCOCKED? The #3 Accumulator Angle is the angle between the club and the left arm . . . . WHEN THE LEFT WRIST IS IN ITS LEVEL CONDITION. Why LEVEL you may be thinking? Because ALL ALIGNMENTS ARE DERIVED FROM IMPACT. And at Impact the Left Wrist according to Homer should be Flat, LEVEL and Vertical. Flat Level and Vertical for a "weak" grip . . . which Homer called a Strong Grip but that's another post. For the "strong" grip . . . the Impact conditions for the Left Wrist are Flat LEVEL and Turned. Remember how your wrist worked when it was "strong?"
So basically to go fully Down and Out on Plane . . . you are uncocking your left wrist to impact to its Level condition. From Impact to low point you are still going DOWN AND OUT ON PLANE. The Left Wrist is in its Level condition and that #3 Accumulator Angle we set up earlier is Rolled with the "weak" grip from Impact Point to Low Point while you point at the line. All the while you are STILL UNCOCKING YOUR LEFT WRIST ON PLANE POINTING AT THE LINE.
So the #3 Accumulator basically is Turning and Rolling that #3 Accumulator Angle set between the club and the left arm when the left wrist is in its LEVEL impact condition. So just turn and roll while pointing the club at the plane line. AND you do all that while cocking and uncocking the left wrist.
Whew . . . any of that crap make sense? Are asleep yet?
Bucket ,that is about your 3rd post that made any sense!
Bucket’s reply has inspired me. Here is an attempt to put into words my thought processes when evaluating the plane in the context of TGM, at least through startup and backstroke. If I’m way off base, then it’s good to know now and get out before causing irreparable damage. So at great risk to my self-worth, here goes:
The post is on the longer side. Consider yourself forewarned
For simplicity (now ain’t that an oxy-moron on this site!) lets envision a golfer at “address”, zero accumulator #3, FLV left “wrist”. So clubshaft and left forearm in a straight line resting on an inclined plane. An awful lot like 1-L. For purposes of this discussion, lets not quibble over clubshaft vs sweetspot planes, impact vs lowpoint plane lines, etc (unless of course this causes me to draw incorrect conclusions)
First, hinging. For pure horizontal hinging, the clubhead would transcribe a perfect circle on the ground. Now this is a particularly un-golflike motion and doesn’t conform to 2-F so other than academic and illustrative purposes, has no value (other than maybe a short putt). Same thing for pure vertical hinging where the clubhead would trace a perfect circle on a plane perpendicular to the ground. Angle hinging transcribes a perfect circle on the inclined plane, starts to look more like a golf motion. There is only one incline that conforms to 2F and this is the incline that the clubshaft rests on at “address”
For brevity (another oxymoron considering this post!), I’ll stick with horizontal hinging. Let’s add a vertical component to horizontal hinging (dual horizontal hinging) so now the shaft rides up an inclined plane. Again, this is a very golf-like motion and there is only one incline that conforms to 2F and this is the incline that the clubshaft rests on at “address”
Now I add accumulator #3 (applies to a good portion of my golf game). For the same ball position, hands are lower and clubshaft plane at address is flatter than above. If I run through the same dual horizontal hinging logic as above, I come up with the same conclusion - there is only one incline that conforms to 2F and this is the incline that the clubshaft rests on at “address”
Much of my golf game employs accumulator #2, so let’s add introduce some wristcock. When employing dual horizontal hinging with or without accumulator #3, any amount of wristcock immediately violates the inclined plane per 2-F (I have trouble understanding 10-18-C). Therefore, I need a degree of freedom. In my view, I need to let go of horizontal hinging (and its requirement for a vertical left wrist) and introduce wrist turn. Now, I don’t have a physical or virtual machine to study the geometry but I believe that coordinated, synchronized wrist cock/wrist turn will maintain the clubshaft on plane (what I see in my mind’s eye is that as I hinge up along the inclined plane, an increment of wrist cock puts clubshaft above plane and a coordinated wrist turn puts it right back on plane, another increment of wrist cock, another increment of wrist turn, …..). Furthermore, I believe that when perfectly coordinated/synchronized, the clubshaft again follows the incline that it rested upon at “address”. What I find very interesting is that it is tough to do consciously but effortless when you let your mind and body take over. This coordinated wrist cock/wrist turn can occur early, late, or uniformly over the duration of the backswing.
So far…..no plane shifts.
Now, when contemplating the wrist turn, I had a thought. It not possible to have wrist cock without wrist turn (remember, I assumed a vertical wrist at the start) BUT it is possible to have wrist turn without wrist cock. So following through this mental image, I see in my mind’s eye is that as I hinge up along the inclined plane, an increment of wrist turn drops the clubshaft below plane. I then would need to adjust my hands to a more vertical incline to get the shaft back pointing a the plane line. Is this the mysterious PLANE SHIFT that started this whole thread??? Following it to the extreme, if I continue turning my wrist, my hand will continue to rise to a steeper and steeper incline, UP TO THE INCLINE IT WOULD HAVE OCCUPIED IN THE ZERO ACCUMUATOR #3 SCENARIO. At that point, wrist cock is free – cock the wrists freely as the hands zip up the plane to the top of the backstroke.
At the risk of blowing this completely out of the water, one does not need to go all the way to the theoretical “zero accumulator #3” plane –at any incline in between one could switch over to the coordinated wrist cock/wrist turn procedure on that plane. Whatever satisfies you personally.
One thing not mentioned so far is shoulder turn. This is yet another disruption or complication to the path of the primary lever or left arm flying wedge as it is riding up the inclined plane. Again, I do not have a real or virtual machine to study the intricacies of the geometry but I believe that the wrist cock/wrist turn/plane shift adjustments work the same way for a stationary left shoulder as well as a rotating left shoulder. Of course the adjustments are different, but they achieve the same end goal of being able to keep the clubshaft on plane at various inclines that share the same plane line.
In my mind, I have convinced myself that it is indeed possible to have the clubshaft remain on plane AND maintain the #3 accumulator AND cock the wrists ALL AT THE SAME TIME (I do have to relax my impression that horizontal hinging is in effect for the entire swing in order to permit wrist turn. If I view it as more of an impact phenomenon, then I have mental consistency about how things fit together)
Anyway, there you have it - the crap according to 3putt.
Bucket’s reply has inspired me. Here is an attempt to put into words my thought processes when evaluating the plane in the context of TGM, at least through startup and backstroke. If I’m way off base, then it’s good to know now and get out before causing irreparable damage. So at great risk to my self-worth, here goes:
The post is on the longer side. Consider yourself forewarned
For simplicity (now ain’t that an oxy-moron on this site!) lets envision a golfer at “address”, zero accumulator #3, FLV left “wrist”. So clubshaft and left forearm in a straight line resting on an inclined plane. An awful lot like 1-L. For purposes of this discussion, lets not quibble over clubshaft vs sweetspot planes, impact vs lowpoint plane lines, etc (unless of course this causes me to draw incorrect conclusions)
First, hinging. For pure horizontal hinging, the clubhead would transcribe a perfect circle on the ground. Now this is a particularly un-golflike motion and doesn’t conform to 2-F so other than academic and illustrative purposes, has no value (other than maybe a short putt). Same thing for pure vertical hinging where the clubhead would trace a perfect circle on a plane perpendicular to the ground. Angle hinging transcribes a perfect circle on the inclined plane, starts to look more like a golf motion. There is only one incline that conforms to 2F and this is the incline that the clubshaft rests on at “address”
For brevity (another oxymoron considering this post!), I’ll stick with horizontal hinging. Let’s add a vertical component to horizontal hinging (dual horizontal hinging) so now the shaft rides up an inclined plane. Again, this is a very golf-like motion and there is only one incline that conforms to 2F and this is the incline that the clubshaft rests on at “address”
Now I add accumulator #3 (applies to a good portion of my golf game). For the same ball position, hands are lower and clubshaft plane at address is flatter than above. If I run through the same dual horizontal hinging logic as above, I come up with the same conclusion - there is only one incline that conforms to 2F and this is the incline that the clubshaft rests on at “address”
Much of my golf game employs accumulator #2, so let’s add introduce some wristcock. When employing dual horizontal hinging with or without accumulator #3, any amount of wristcock immediately violates the inclined plane per 2-F (I have trouble understanding 10-18-C). Therefore, I need a degree of freedom. In my view, I need to let go of horizontal hinging (and its requirement for a vertical left wrist) and introduce wrist turn. Now, I don’t have a physical or virtual machine to study the geometry but I believe that coordinated, synchronized wrist cock/wrist turn will maintain the clubshaft on plane (what I see in my mind’s eye is that as I hinge up along the inclined plane, an increment of wrist cock puts clubshaft above plane and a coordinated wrist turn puts it right back on plane, another increment of wrist cock, another increment of wrist turn, …..). Furthermore, I believe that when perfectly coordinated/synchronized, the clubshaft again follows the incline that it rested upon at “address”. What I find very interesting is that it is tough to do consciously but effortless when you let your mind and body take over. This coordinated wrist cock/wrist turn can occur early, late, or uniformly over the duration of the backswing.
So far…..no plane shifts.
Now, when contemplating the wrist turn, I had a thought. It not possible to have wrist cock without wrist turn (remember, I assumed a vertical wrist at the start) BUT it is possible to have wrist turn without wrist cock. So following through this mental image, I see in my mind’s eye is that as I hinge up along the inclined plane, an increment of wrist turn drops the clubshaft below plane. I then would need to adjust my hands to a more vertical incline to get the shaft back pointing a the plane line. Is this the mysterious PLANE SHIFT that started this whole thread??? Following it to the extreme, if I continue turning my wrist, my hand will continue to rise to a steeper and steeper incline, UP TO THE INCLINE IT WOULD HAVE OCCUPIED IN THE ZERO ACCUMUATOR #3 SCENARIO. At that point, wrist cock is free – cock the wrists freely as the hands zip up the plane to the top of the backstroke.
At the risk of blowing this completely out of the water, one does not need to go all the way to the theoretical “zero accumulator #3” plane –at any incline in between one could switch over to the coordinated wrist cock/wrist turn procedure on that plane. Whatever satisfies you personally.
One thing not mentioned so far is shoulder turn. This is yet another disruption or complication to the path of the primary lever or left arm flying wedge as it is riding up the inclined plane. Again, I do not have a real or virtual machine to study the intricacies of the geometry but I believe that the wrist cock/wrist turn/plane shift adjustments work the same way for a stationary left shoulder as well as a rotating left shoulder. Of course the adjustments are different, but they achieve the same end goal of being able to keep the clubshaft on plane at various inclines that share the same plane line.
In my mind, I have convinced myself that it is indeed possible to have the clubshaft remain on plane AND maintain the #3 accumulator AND cock the wrists ALL AT THE SAME TIME (I do have to relax my impression that horizontal hinging is in effect for the entire swing in order to permit wrist turn. If I view it as more of an impact phenomenon, then I have mental consistency about how things fit together)
Anyway, there you have it - the crap according to 3putt.
There's a lot in here . . . you put a lot of thought into it. You got some concepts mixed up. But props to you for taking it on. It's unfortunate that the book doesn't come with a video. I could take you through a bunch of this stuff, but it would make a HUGE thread.
You should attend a seminar assuming you have the interest and the $. But if not ask plenty of questions. You seem to be mixed up on how Hinging works.
Do a search in the archives on Hinge Action. They are organized by Chapters in the book. So take a look at the Chapters where you are having trouble visualizing and conceptualizing the material. Search that in the main forum and the archives. For the most part the entire book has been tackled.
You are having some issues with Grip Type, the #3 Accumulator (the angle and how it works), and Wrist Action/Hand Action.
I'd say we need to start with your grip type because that is going to have a huge impact on how your hands HAVE to move during the Release Motions.
How do you have your hand on the club pop intruction "strong" or pop instruction "weak"? See the pics on 10-2-B vs 10-2-D grip types.
So imagine a ball down there on the ground on the plane. The sweetspot is traveling down and out and forward ON-PLANE. (Remember the a vertical plane would only have DOWN and UP. A horizontal plane would only have IN and OUT). Since we are on an Inclined Plane the clubmoves in 3 dimensions (Down, Out, and Forward ALL ON PLANE).
You are correct that - The club travels on a 2 dimensional inclined plane but in reference to the horizontal plane (the ground) the club travels in 3 dimensions. You are correct that when refering to the vertical and horizontal planes with reference to the horizontal plane these planes will have only two dimensions.
You are incorrect that - The vertical plane has Upwards and Downwards as its two dimensions because unfortunately those two are the same dimension - just think of a piece of paper with an x and y axis. The club can move upwards and downwards (one dimension) but it can also move forwards and backwards (two dimensions).
Quote:
So imagine the club and sweetspot traveling down and out on plane and then touching the ball. Through that point Homer drew a line parallel to the ground from the Impact Point and named it the Impact Plane Line.
A tip - if you are going to tell the existance of a geometrical line you should say exactly how to draw that line. What your saying here is correct but incomplete because just stating a line goes through a point parallel to the ground without referencing that this line is on the face of the inclined plane to establish its forward direction isn't helpful.
Quote:
The club and its sweetspot CONTINUE Down and Out ON PLANE AFTER IMPACT POINT UNTIL THE SWEETSPOT REACHES ITS LOWEST POINT----OPPOSITE THE LEFT SHOULDER THE CENTER OF THE STROKE.
Actually, no it doesn't. This would be true if the left shoulder was stationary, however in the golf stroke the left shoulder is moving in its own little orbit that contains an upwards direction and this brings the low point backwards somewhat.
I would of let this slide if you had said "for concept purposes" like you did earlier but this holds no such disclaimer.
Quote:
From the lowest point Homer drew a line and called it the LOW POINT PLANE LINE. For an iron shot the Low Point Plane Line is actually UNDERGROUND. So ALL STROKES SHOULD BE DRIVEN THROUGH IMPACT POINT AND CONTINUE DOWN AND OUT ON PLANE THROUGH LOW POINT.
This would be correct assuming the sweetspot gets underground which if it does your probably in trouble. The clubhead is bigger than the sweetspot you know .
Quote:
After low point since the arms are connected to the shoulders the club begins to trave UP AND IN ON PLANE . . . but he effort is still down.
Again misquoting the book and/or misunderstanding the concept, the effort is not downwards in relation to the horizontal plane but downwards in relation to the inclined plane.
Hybrid Mode
