I understand what you are saying. But the point I am making if the hingeing action is truly independent of the angular motion I physically should be able to have a horizontal hinge and since it is not a desirable pattern what potential error does it cost?
I guess I am trying to figure out a mixed hitting swinging procedure which conforms to my physical capabilites(have a handicap) and is closer to my previous swinging procedure.
Dave
A key difference is rotation, and the orientation of the shaft to the loading.
When you swing, you are loading the left wrist due to two primary factors, a startup swivel (rotation onto the plane) and going to 'end' (loading in the plane of the left wrist cock and getting 'under' the shaft)
When you hit, you are loading the right elbow with effectively no real rotation so rather than load against the 'top' of the shaft as in swinging, you are loading more on the 'side' of the shaft. A 90 degree difference - always loading the shaft at 90 degrees to the direction of the loading force in either case.
When you use a horizontal hinge 'hit' you aren't using the full benefits of CF and you are 'forced' to time the squaring of the clubface manually. In other words, since you didn't allow the rotation back, you must 'make' it happen coming through, which is an inconsistent way to play.
As combinations go, loading for hitting and then horizontal hinging isn't the worst, because it does make it easier to hit a draw. The question is the ability to control just how much draw.
The opposite case, loading for swinging and then angled hinging, is an easy way to hit a fade, and again, the question is the ability to control just how much fade.
The force vectors just are less compatible than for a 'straight' ball. As long as you understand the shot shapes that naturally result from each, you can play effectively with any combination. I suspect this is why Homer stated that hinge action does not differentiate hitting and swinging.
__________________
"Support the On Plane Swinging Force in Balance"
"we have no friends, we have no enemies, we have only teachers"
Simplicity buffs, see 5-0, 1-L, 2-0 A and B 10-2-B, 4-D, 6B-1D, 6-B-3-0-1, 6-C-1, 6-E-2
A key difference is rotation, and the orientation of the shaft to the loading.
When you swing, you are loading the left wrist due to two primary factors, a startup swivel (rotation onto the plane) and going to 'end' (loading in the plane of the left wrist cock and getting 'under' the shaft)
When you hit, you are loading the right elbow with effectively no real rotation so rather than load against the 'top' of the shaft as in swinging, you are loading more on the 'side' of the shaft. A 90 degree difference - always loading the shaft at 90 degrees to the direction of the loading force in either case.
When you use a horizontal hinge 'hit' you aren't using the full benefits of CF and you are 'forced' to time the squaring of the clubface manually. In other words, since you didn't allow the rotation back, you must 'make' it happen coming through, which is an inconsistent way to play.
As combinations go, loading for hitting and then horizontal hinging isn't the worst, because it does make it easier to hit a draw. The question is the ability to control just how much draw.
The opposite case, loading for swinging and then angled hinging, is an easy way to hit a fade, and again, the question is the ability to control just how much fade.
The force vectors just are less compatible than for a 'straight' ball. As long as you understand the shot shapes that naturally result from each, you can play effectively with any combination. I suspect this is why Homer stated that hinge action does not differentiate hitting and swinging.
Very good post Ed-Miester, Eddie-Jam, Ed-A-Rama.
Also, Dave, the recommendations are for uncompensated (unmanipulated) strokes.
__________________
Yoda knows...and he taught me!
For those less fortunate, Swinging is an option.
Last edited by YodasLuke : 03-09-2006 at 11:05 PM.
I was just thinking about something similar today, while hitting (or is that swinging, or right arm swinging!!!) some pitch shots, working on my Tomasello motion. In my view the Tomasello motion certainly has right forearm thrust through the ball, but also tends more naturally towards a horizontal hinge. What I was thinking about was this (and it could well be wrong!):
With centrifugal force in swinging, the force is working out, perpendicular to the plane line when viewed from above, away from the centre (left shoulder). Such a force tends towards horizontal hinging.
With hitting and right arm thrust, force tends down the angle of approach, or viewed from above, across the plane line but not at a 90 degree angle.
With the Tomasello motion (Australia video) - the arms go down and then Tom exhorts one to hit 'OUT at the ball'!!! My feel with this move is not the angled (to the plane line from above) force of hitting, but truly out at 90 degrees (or close to it). This gives me a horizontal hinge, or an angled hinge which is close to a horizontal hinge.
Anyway, here's my thesis: force at 90 degrees to the plane line (viewed from above) 'naturally' gives a horizontal hinge, whether by centrifugal force, or right forearm thrust; force parallel to the plane line 'naturally' gives a vertical hinge; between these two gives varieties of angled hinge, tending more towards horizontal or vertical depending on how cross or along the line the force is.
By the way, in thinking of the force vector, I think it is best to think of it in relation to the left shoulder if that makes sense.
Jeez Ed, I'm about to revolk your Swingers Emergency Room badge!
Great post. I think it's safe to say Ted has some solid backup.
Bagger
Ed can be my Pilot OR Co-pilot anytime. He has sufficiently earned the Trust Badge. Also, it doesn't hurt you to surround yourself with people in the top .5% of I.Q.'s.
I think Ed's a closet hitter anyway. Although he's got a pure swing, he has the heart of a hitter!
Ed can be my Pilot OR Co-pilot anytime. He has sufficiently earned the Trust Badge. Also, it doesn't hurt you to surround yourself with people in the top .5% of I.Q.'s.
I think Ed's a closet hitter anyway. Although he's got a pure swing, he has the heart of a hitter!
shhhhh.... don't tell anyone I've been hitting too!
Thanks for the kind words Ted. It sure did help my hitting motion to see your move in person at OCN last spring. Pure lasers, straight as a string.
__________________
"Support the On Plane Swinging Force in Balance"
"we have no friends, we have no enemies, we have only teachers"
Simplicity buffs, see 5-0, 1-L, 2-0 A and B 10-2-B, 4-D, 6B-1D, 6-B-3-0-1, 6-C-1, 6-E-2
A key difference is rotation, and the orientation of the shaft to the loading.
When you swing, you are loading the left wrist due to two primary factors, a startup swivel (rotation onto the plane) and going to 'end' (loading in the plane of the left wrist cock and getting 'under' the shaft)
When you hit, you are loading the right elbow with effectively no real rotation so rather than load against the 'top' of the shaft as in swinging, you are loading more on the 'side' of the shaft. A 90 degree difference - always loading the shaft at 90 degrees to the direction of the loading force in either case.
When you use a horizontal hinge 'hit' you aren't using the full benefits of CF and you are 'forced' to time the squaring of the clubface manually. In other words, since you didn't allow the rotation back, you must 'make' it happen coming through, which is an inconsistent way to play.
As combinations go, loading for hitting and then horizontal hinging isn't the worst, because it does make it easier to hit a draw. The question is the ability to control just how much draw.
The opposite case, loading for swinging and then angled hinging, is an easy way to hit a fade, and again, the question is the ability to control just how much fade.
The force vectors just are less compatible than for a 'straight' ball. As long as you understand the shot shapes that naturally result from each, you can play effectively with any combination. I suspect this is why Homer stated that hinge action does not differentiate hitting and swinging.
Just a quick one EDZ, do you think a Strong Shoulder throw on Hitting will compensate the draw/hook on Hitter using Horzontal Hinging? Or perhaps we can work on the grip a little bit too?
__________________
I am not East Coast nor West Coast... I stick to the MIDLAND
Just a quick one EDZ, do you think a Strong Shoulder throw on Hitting will compensate the draw/hook on Hitter using Horzontal Hinging? Or perhaps we can work on the grip a little bit too?
I wouldn't tend to put a shoulder turn throw with a hitting procedure. Far too difficult to have anything to 'push off of' with the right arm. The shoulder turn throw is much more of a swinger's move (strongly loading PP#4). Tough to time when to 'thrust' if you try this as a hitter, although with a very accurate aiming point, I could see a lot of power potential. A pretty advanced combiniation.
__________________
"Support the On Plane Swinging Force in Balance"
"we have no friends, we have no enemies, we have only teachers"
Simplicity buffs, see 5-0, 1-L, 2-0 A and B 10-2-B, 4-D, 6B-1D, 6-B-3-0-1, 6-C-1, 6-E-2
I wouldn't tend to put a shoulder turn throw with a hitting procedure. Far too difficult to have anything to 'push off of' with the right arm. The shoulder turn throw is much more of a swinger's move (strongly loading PP#4). Tough to time when to 'thrust' if you try this as a hitter, although with a very accurate aiming point, I could see a lot of power potential. A pretty advanced combiniation.
I think you are right, as I am trying it out at present, very inconsistent. As I am more a less be able to charge for a service.. of being a "hooker". But anyhow, I am giving it a try as when it works I can sustain the lag a lot better.
Back to your post, do you mean that hitter can use the right shoulder throw with a very accurate aiming point? Just wondering how do we use aiming point concept in Hitting?
__________________
I am not East Coast nor West Coast... I stick to the MIDLAND
If you accelerate the right arm via pressure point #1 correctly, you will produce a angled hinge. It is the natural result of thrusting against power point #1.
HOWEVER
If you decide to use some kind of right arm acceleration via the magic of the right forearm, you can and will produce horizontal hinging. See Tomasello and my post on the subject (right arm thrust vs right arm participation)
__________________
I'm not a TGM or PGA certified Pro, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night
don't tell anyone I've been hitting too!
Hybrid Mode
