Hinge Pin Location
 

For Dual Horizontal Hinging, does the mounted Hinge pin
stay opposite the left shoulder as the left shoulder
rotates left through and after impact or does the hing pin
stay in the impact location as the left shoulder goes
around?

Hinge Pin is at the Shoulder and moves with the Shoulder.

Hinge Pin
 

Daryl, thanks a lot. My student was starting to hook
shots and presented the the question. I was trying to
teach him Overtaking of the club past the hands and
introduced dual horizontal hinge action. I think that
he was concentrating on moving the club with the hinge
rather than monitoring the hands.
Donn

Monitor the pivot as well because the swingers horizontal hinge is created by the orbiting arms and the turning torso not by the hands themselves...

Hands
 

Thanks Whip, you are certainly correct. I was
referring to educated hands staying on plane.
I am still thinking about the hinge Pin. In Yodas
hinge board the board and pin are fixed in one place.
The hinge does what a hinge does, open and close. Same
for a hinge mounted on a door frame. The hinge board
nor the door frame do not appear to move over and back to the left to accommodate the opening. I would think that the flange
on the hinge pin would open to accommodate opening. Maintaining
the hing assembly on the left shoulder, as it goes around,
appears to me, that the hinge board or door frame would have
to move. Thanks for your input. Donn

When presented with the concept of hinge action, which concerns the alignment of the left wrist through impact, you have to understand that any motion cannot be borne from a visualisation from the mind. If you create a fiction of reality, you are suffering under delusion. When the mind focuses inward, it is creating this image out of memory from the past and it distracts you from what is happening in the present which means you are no longer aware of reality in the present. If you cannot see what is real, you cannot adapt to your environment.

Focus on the left wrist in practice if you wish to improve it. Experience what is real without the cycle of intransigence. Look for new experiences but don't sacrifice reality. Don't codify it into a verbal representation or mantra.

That explains a lot of my problems!
 

Nicely said by everyone! :thumleft:

May I add that the "Forward Press" has been very instructive to me as of late esp. with a frozen, Bent Right Wrist after the press?

ICT

Observing
 

Meditation, I understand, the objects in the mirror
are closer that they are. Donn

I do not, could you please tranlate for me? :confused1

Are you feeling okay?

Feeing Fine
 

Mediation, I am doing fine but will probably
get over it. Thanks for your email. Donn

About the left hand but not by the left hand
 

IMO , in regard to the human golfer as opposed to the model or machine of 1-L , rolling the entire Primary Lever (left arm and club) with a Flat Left Wrist places the Hinge Pin at the connection point between left arm and body..... the left shoulder. The hinge pin is at the end of the lever , the end of the radius. If the lever breaks in half , the hinge loses control of the clubface .

Also, while the left hand (as clubface) is moved in a manner so it remains in a perpendicular alignment to one of the three basic planes (vertical, horizontal or somewhere in between aka angled) it is not moved by the left hand. Its a left hand alignment , but its not created, motivated , powered by the left hand . Something a lot of guys get wrong when attempting , manipulating various hinge actions.

Talking full shots here. When putting you could place the hinge pin at the hands (Arnie style, Zone 3 only putting) or at the Pivot Centre (zone 1 only putting) ...... or misguidedly or more likely out of ignorance , in some combination of Zones , 1,2 and 3 (Michelle Wie's putting used to look zone 1 and 3 ish to my eye, pivot stroke with a breaking left hand). But for full shots with a straight left arm through the ball , the hinge pin is in the left shoulder, given a flat left wrist. If the left wrist breaks , the club face goes with it.

Speaking of old school Zone 3 only putting ....didnt some of those guys anchor their hands? Hmmmm...... need our rules official Kev Carter to come in and make a ruling.

Hello 0.B. Thanks for you insight. On the putting side
I seem to remember V.J. talking about the same thing.
For long shots, my concern has been the hinge (using a
hinge device, as suggested by Yoda) rotating around with
the left shoulder instead of around the hinge pin. If I
try to maintain the hinge on the left shoulder, this appears
to be what is happening. When Yoda demonstrates, his wooden
hinge device, he does not move the whole device around, outward, on the back swing. The device stays in the same spot and the club portion rotates around the hinge pin. I have been trying to use
the hinge so that I can get exact tracing and a single action
wrist action on the back stroke. I would certainly appreciate
your thoughts. Donn

Hey Donn. I know you know all this stuff but for the benefit of those who havent had a lesson with lynn....

The machine of 1-L is a model . A stripped down , simplified for illustrative purposes model that reveals all of the 1-Ls, the basic geometry if you will and the Hinge Actions. Its brilliant but it is simplified when compared to the human body. The machine does not have shoulders , the hinge pin at the end of the primary lever, the centre of the radius, is fixed at the post (spine). The human body is obviously more complex . It has multiple levers , multiple centres, some of which are , often , in motion. That is to say the left shoulder, unless its zeroed moves.

Now that said you could employ a procedure which is similar to the machines. A procedure where (normally for short but exacting shots) you zeroed out the pivot (the left shoulder) and moved the primary lever about a fixed centre . A Pull Minor Basic Stroke say. Great procedure. Simple geometrically , mechanically. But for longer , power shots the left shoulder must move . Aka pivot strokes.

A lot of guys get Hands to Pivot wrong . Its very easy to do. Hands to pivot does not mean that the hands move before the pivot does for instance. Nor does it mean that the pivot is zeroed in Startup. Ideally the body and the arms move in a co-ordinated but independent manner. The legs and arms move in a different direction than the body turns! This is why Lynn doesnt like the hanky under the arm pit drill. It ties the arms to the pivot and restricts independent motion. Lynn teaches a ground/up startup followed by a ground / up start down. Something he told me Hogan described in Power Golf if not in 5 lessons. One reason our host has a preference for Power Golf I believe.

Lynn teaches a feet , knees, hips, shoulders , arms , hands , club startup. Sort of like dancing or walking to be more precise. He teaches lag and drag in startup (both from adjusted and from impact fix interestingly, who knew?) He loves the photos of Sneads cleared right hip, Nelson's lagging clubhead takeaway. Hogan of course oozes ground / up , lag and drag.... in both directions . Back and then through.

To pull this off the pivot must not be killed in startup. The hips are not held still despite how common an intention this may be , currently. The pivot turns and the arms go ...up on the backstroke. See Divergent vectors 2-N-1.. the clubheads orbit is the product of two divergent forces . One outward , one downward (on the downswing but imagine your swinging the club up when thinking about the backswing) The forces balance each other out. The forces of the independent body and arm motion balance out with the clubheads path , orbit resulting. The body's and the arm's motion is therefore said to be "independent but co-ordinated."

So hard to describe in words but you should experience its feel when introduced into your swing! See also McDonald exercises # 5, 10 and 11. This IMO is one reason why Lynn loves those exercises. One exercise is worth a thousand words.

The pivot can (if you so choose ) move the club for its first few inches or so in Startup . I do this. From adjusted . For me it feels like my right hip initiates the whole sequence. As if the right hip powers the clubs first few inches and powers my "startup swivel" . The body (zone 1) provides the initial MOMENTUM which gets picked up and added to in a chain reaction that ripples through all the zones. Its a swing away with a gradually building momentum as the arms and hands (zones 2 and 3) sense and then add to this initial motion. But with different directions or vectors to motion (of zones 1 and 2) . There used to be a video here where John Riegger illustrated his preferred startup from fix , how his pivot turns from a Fix position in Startup and his club goes back a few feet with it. I cant seem to find it any more but it was really interesting. Very McDonald drill #5 to my eye anyways.

Ive got a home made video where Lynn discusses this startup. Let me see if he'll let me put it up on this board. Its not material that is very well known or understood. It takes a lot of words to explain and even then its easily dismissed or over looked. It is however the single most important thing that Lynn has given to my game. What is it? Its ground up , lag and drag in both directions with independent body and arm/leg motion. With an early swing away momentum powering the "startup swivel". Its "motion! " . Simple , natural motion . Alignments (Homer) in motion ( as taught by Blake, McDonald , Melhourne and Homer 12-5 for instance). Homers love affair with Lag and Drag takes on new meaning when, if you are able to introduce it very early in the swing , in Startup. Well IMO anyways.

The startup is not an arm thing alone or a body thing alone. Its a co-ordinated bit of both , each doing its own thing, going its own way. While the #3 pp traces. The pivot moves about its centre , a point between the shoulders the Primary Lever (the left arm and club) moves about its centre the Left Shoulder.




Attachment 2958


Attachment 2959


Attachment 2960


P.S. Exercise #10 and 11 are drills , backswing drills which show the pivots (Zone 1's) contribution to the clubheads orbit on the backswing . It is not suggesting that the clubheads orbit on the backswing is solely a product of a turning pivot. All the zones get involved early ..... Lynn , my video seems to suggest , personally has zone 1 and 2 doing their own things immediately in startup. I have the body going before the arms ... To each his own.

McDonald Drills
 

Excellent post O.B. Sure helps my understanding of the
Drills. Sure hope that you can get your video on the Website.
Yoda understands something special about the movements.
I suspect that the reason is, the more centered pivot, but
not sure. With the drills, I see the right hip going more
back than around, kind of like the right hip set out of the
way. With this, I can still see a delayed hip turn, rather
than Standard hip turn. Right forearm take away in a sense.
Like you, most likely, I am used to Golf Machine terms and
will need to adjust to added language. Maybe as time progresses
more Drill instruction will relate to Golfing Machine terms,
but then, I guess that terms will be a problem for the
general golfer. The drills sure work for me,and others that I see,
but I am not quite sure why. In time the fog will lift.
Thanks, Donn

The exercises are all about motion. Lynn teaches Homers Alignments of course , but in motion. Alignments and motion work together. The motion can produce nice dynamic alignments , for instance! You cant look like Hogan by merely copping his positions. You get there , to the extent possible , by emulating his motion IMO. The component variations with their alignments are made into a whole by motion. "A one piece total motion" . As opposed to a cobbled together collection of pieces, manipulations or positions.

The early guys (McDonald , Melhourne etc ) seemed to do a better job of teaching motion. With Lynn I found it , motion, to be very free flowing , unbridled and powerful. He'd whisper "give up control to gain control " (George Knudson) as I swung. Took me hours to get it right , to let go. Its adoption was accompanied by a better "swoosh" sound down near the ball. Did you ever notice how Phil has a nice "swoosh"? Not too many compliment him on his mechanics etc but he's got a great motion. You can hear it. You dont get that sound by hanging on to anything. Angles or positions.


You still have component options , Hip Action as you mention. I remember Lynn talking about how McDonald just got a lot of things right. Right forearm takeaway for instance, if memory serves. I personally think Lynn would say that McDonald's and Homer's books dove tail quite nicely. Better than most!

Motion
 

O.B. Another excellent Post. At the Range, I felt it today.
Started from the feet, I felt the lag/drag on back stroke.
Before I had issues with back stroke, UP, Back, and In and
felt that a drag was more down (on the ground)was an oxymoron with the UP. Now I sense the UP with the lag/drag. A more tracing
motion than before (not with the clubhead on the ground). Please let me know if you feel that the new take away is correct.
Donn

Sounds right to me.

You no doubt have done the continuous swinging drill with Lynn. The Wild Bill Mehlhourn drill where you brush the ground in BOTH directions and walk forward ..... first in tall grass then on turf then while stroking a line of golf balls.

The momentum provided to your backstroke when you reverse your direction from what would normally be finish is delightful, magical even. It settles into being Pivot motivated. As it would when scything grass. In contrast to the muscles and methods we normally use in startup which can be counter productive (dead pivot , arms outracing the body , off plane etc) The lagging takeaway Lynn teaches, from my experience , provides early swinging momentum from startup that approaches the same feel as the Mehlhourn drills free ride, if you will. So to answer your question , I'd say do McDonald Exercise #5 and then take to the rough for some Mehlhourne drills .... once acclimated compare that floating back feeling it enhances , highlights to your Lagging Takeaway procedure. The more the latter is like the former the better you're getting at it, IMO. You cant get all the way there ... but you can try. Lag and drag in both directions .... hence the brush in both directions. Lynn put an impact bag behind my club in Startup so Id whack it with a lagging clubhead ..... address hands, bent right/flat left . But I start from Adjusted , mid body hands for longer shots.

One thing about the Mehlhourn drill ... if you do one for a few minutes without a ball, the continuous motion seems to remove unwanted , extraneous motion . Your focus turns to the clubhead path. It seems to remove the non essential motion we cook up with our logic. You wont tend to over spin your pivot for instance . You wont tend to hang onto angles. You will tend to let your arms pass your body , you will tend to Finish Swivel. You're swinging , lagging and dragging in both directions with the PIvot anticipating , preparing and initiating the change in direction..... naturally. Like we do when chopping wood to use a Bob McDonald image.

When Lynn first showed me the McDonald exercises I didnt like them very much or get what they were all about. I couldnt wait for the marching to stop frankly. I would have preferred to have been hitting balls and looking at film of my swing... I couldnt have more astounded when I finally got the message.

Lynn knew that words alone couldnt fix what I had ingrained over decades of golf . I needed motion retraining. It took hours as I recall to gain some ground that first day. Even then I was far from finished, the lessons continued for several years actually and it wasnt until a month or so after the last lesson that they clicked in full strength. Looking back on it he broke me like you would a wild horse. The biggest gains were made at the end of the day , after he'd exhausted me. My "head" got in the way of the retraining. He got me outa my head , like an acting coach would an "over thinking it" actor.

The darn swing just isnt what we tend to think it is. I was over turning , over lifting etc. All this extra stuff. Weirdest thing is my swing now looks way better than it used to . Without any thought to what I looked like during the motion training , I ended up with the look I wanted. Weird aint it?

Motion
 

O.B. thanks for sharing your Journey with the Drills.
I felt the same way that you did starting out.
I know that it will take time, but I am willing to
make the effort. One concern, at the present, is
combining the drag with the Right Arm Pick up. Don't
want to create a swaying problem. I will keep you posted
and would certainly apprecated your insite.
Donn

PULL in both directions.
 

Centred head is good. A right side pull of the pivot or a right forearm pickup doesnt preclude a centred head. Remember its not a sway to the right that loads your right side.....its more about pressure . You "load" your BRACED right side by pressuring your right side , you load it with the momentum of your swinging arms and club, your turning pivot. Hence the walking thing Lynn loves to demonstrate , the lifting heals thing. He always demonstrates it with a centred head. You dont move your head to the right when your weight is entirely over your right foot when walking (when the left foot is in the air). Moe talked about loading into his right side but not over his right side. Imagine a weight scale under your right foot. Make the needle jump but without swaying your head! With force along the inside edge of your right shoes sole. Like an inside edge when skiing or footing a door say.

You could if you want try that little Hogan kick in of the right knee which braced his right side ... pretty hard to sway your head without breaking that brace. You can kick the knee in and try to leave it there while turning your right hip out of the way. "Clear the right hip" , 12-3 #13.

Speaking of Hogan , he once described the initiation of his swing away , lagging takeaway as a "rebound " off of his full body forward press. Old skool I know but his early lag in startup was a product of this rebound. He swung the club back with lag and drag established early. The rebound being IMO a description of the early momentum provided by the pivot going to Fix if but for only a brief moment then "rebounding" in the other direction. The pivots mini change in direction causing a mini lagging clubhead as it does to a much more noticeable extent in the transition from backswing to downswing.

Its so hard to talk about this, describe this business ..... unless you're talking to someone who knows how it feels. Feels in the hands. How the sweetspot seems to seek out the ball magically as in the Melhourn drill when lag pressure is present.

Do the Melhourn drills until you see, believe in the link between lag pressure and sweet spot impact. Then conclude to seek it , lag pressure , out in all normal shots. (intentionally skulled wedge shots aside) . Feel the lag pressure on both sides of the swing , make no adjustment for impact (12-5 and the Three Stations). For compressions sake. Again even from Fix , even when putting you can feel this stuff.... even when the hands stay in impact condition and the clubhead doesnt actually lag.

You know Tiger's 3 continuous passes with the putter before he sets it behind the ball? Kinda Melhourn drill in a way is it? Only the Melhourn choir would agree to this song perhaps. It does sound outlandish.... at first. IMO there's lag pressure present for a nicely stroked putt. And probably none present for a yipped four footer.

Brace
 

Thanks again O.B. I have worked with Hogan's Right
side brace for years. First at address and second on
the back stroke. Along came the Right Forearm Pickup
in TGM as the way to stop swaying. Now the focus is on
the feet. Going to the range and work on combining the
three above.
Also "Hogn's Power Secret" Right Foot to
drive the Right elbow deeper forward before release. Also
"Running at the ball" with right knees in book, Afternoons
with Mr.Hogan by Jody Valquez. These items to use foot action
for lag/drive on downswing.

Overall don/t want to forget independent arm swing and Motion.
Thank again, Donn

Motion
 

O.B. I hit aprox 200 balls today, normally 400 but
really tried to think after each shot. For the first part
I concentrated on McDonald drill, marching with left and
right foot and independent arm swing. I hit some excellent
shots but pattern was not consistent. Then I tried getting
on the elbow plane and tried to align the club with the
right arm and had good results.

I watched the Mehlhourn drills which gave a lot of insight
but the observation came to me that we were going straight
to Motion skipping Alignments and Action and then motion. A guy asked me to look at his swing and says how does this look. And then does another swing and asked me, how does this look. I ask him to stop and look at his alignments. Hard to tell what he is doing based on motion. I don't think that an advanced golfer
would buy a swing based on Motions rather than alignments.
Would certainly appreciate you thoughts. Donn

Alignments in Motion is what Lynn teaches as you know. "The geometry of all alignments stems from the Impact geometry requirements " said Homer, 2-J-1 Impact Alignments. And Impact dynamics are three dimensional geometrically .... given the side on nature of the game and the implement employed. (croquet putting having been outlawed in 60's... damn!) . Contrary to what most would tend to think a lesson with Lynn is often , more like dance lessons than geometry class . He loves motion drills. I wouldnt want to rank them in a hierarchy of some sort but in order of presentation its geometry , alignments and then motion, in that order from what Ive seen. Which is logical. "Alignments in motion" however makes for a very nice acronym however and is copyright protected, by our host.

Lynn, from what Ive seen , typically starts with a new student at the breakfast table drawing the circle geometry on paper. Getting basic terms , geometry agreed upon. Then on the practice tee the first order of business is alignments . The on plane right forearm at address . The difference between impact and adjusted address ie how impact in not a return to your address position and how the pivot creates this difference even though it involves the entire body , arms , hands and club. How the flat left wrist when rolled into finish swivel is the cure for the breaking left wrist , chicken wing typical of most golfers. etc etc. Then after these things are ingrained to some degree of acceptability he turns to motion drills which introduces lag and drag.

Motion and alignments work together . Proper motion tends to encourage all forms of "lag". Lag tends to encourage or should i say "display" , proper alignments . Talking about ground up lag here, lag at every component not just clubhead lag, like a "chain action" (Hogan). In the downswing the clubhead lags behind and places drag upon the hands, the arms lag and place drag upon the shoulders , shoulders do same to hips, hips to knees , knees to feet. I said that backwards in terms of timing. The look of this ground/up lagging and dragging is the look we see on tv. Going back to the difference between adjusted address and fix : you could say that actual impact alignments are a product of lag , lag at every component. You pose them in Fix with a turn of the hips but they are a product of the dynamic motion when swinging.

To get the look of the guys we see on tv we need motion. Its not gotten by posing , its a dynamic. A dynamic of the multiple levers so to speak , doing their levering. Why the heck would you want to restrict one component (hip action say for an x factor backswing) when looking at human motion in this manner. When my back is out I tend to fumble things .... pens, phones etc. My system , chain action or whatever is not working as whole. The frozen back throws the direction of my hands travel off line.

Even clubhead lag ie common speak lag , delayed #2 angle is not achieved via holding onto it!!!!!!!!!!!! That will ruin the motion , ruin some alignments too. Its a dynamic. The intention is to release #2! Hence the mystery of great alignments as seen on film when one throws a club down the range. Hence Jack's confounding statement that "you can not release the club too early". See Lynns video where he "hammers " the ground with his left hand and club then turns the same action into an on plane strike of the golf ball. Now, you can delay of course or you can let it go earlier for certain shots.. Sweep Release vs Random Sweep vs Snap are mechanical adjustments available to the master mechanic. Even then its the pivot , the right shoulder that takes the bent right arm and fully loaded #2 angle to a delayed Release Point. Which can be viewed as an increase in Pivot lag when looking at things from a motion perspective rather than a degrees of wrist cock position. We do this pivot lag thing exactly , without thinking , when trying to throw a ball further. We use our pivot more forcefully. For some reason we make golf into something it isnt ...... a series of static positions rather than a dynamic .......er..... motion. This IMO this is what Homer meant when he talked about a "one piece total motion". 12-5 the Basic Motion curriculum starts with the club being swung back and through continually , with no adjustment being made for impact with the ball. Sort of like a mini Mehlhorn drill.

Dkerby , you asked about the advanced golfer and what he might think of motion drills. Lynn does them with such players. He teaches other teachers the benefits of the motion drills. He doesnt just teach this stuff to us hacks. In fact he has a story about a pro, whose name you might know, who came to him after having totally lost his game. They started with the back and through constant swinging Basic Motion chip shot of 12-5, no ball. In the presence of the ball the pro would flick it near impact , without the ball he wouldnt , wouldnt throw it away. Lynn waited , waited until he was making the motion (its the motion that makes the shot) then dropped a ball down mid stroke ..... Presto! Once re introduced to proper motion, with its lag and drag , his game came back to life. Quickly. Like a car with a new battery. "Sky high long irons" said Lynn. This is a guy who had won on tour!


Even when armed with the correct diagnosis , motion drills trump somebody merely saying "dont throw it away". Or "your left hand is breaking down" , or whatever. "Hold onto that that flat left wrist " wouldnt be correct either. Even the flat left , bent right impact hands alignment can be seen as a product of lag as well. And Lag as the product of correct motion. Also the motion drills tend to work even when there is an incorrect diagnosis!

I do some slow motion drills for sequencing , alignment training. I like em. At really slow speeds there is a problem that you quickly recognize (if you're also a fan of motion drills and free flowing lag and drag) in that CF , motion, is no longer present. CF is not present in a static pose, nor is it very strong during super slow motion swings. And its the CF that sets up the lag and drag. Its always a bit of a relief for me to get up to a speed where the CF/motion comes back into things. Without it I have to carry the club back, cock the left wrist manually etc etc. Things I dont want in my real swing. Things that are for me anyways best automated , powered by , produced by ...motion. The lagging takeaway powers my startup swivel which adds more momentum to the club which eventually powers my wrist cock. CF cocks the left wrist , said Homer (for the swinger). It cocks a little later in so doing but it keeps on cocking during the change of directions.... which is something new for me. Thank you Lynn Blake! And Ted Fort ! Ted by the way , despite his Hitter ways can really teach lagging takeaway , float loading, longitudinal acceleration swinging.

You ever notice how Hogan when doing his slow mo drills still did his full body forward press at real time? Doing it in slow mo wouldnt have had the momentum to cause the rebound he talked about , maybe? Nor did he show a lot of clubhead lag during his takeaway in his super slow motion drills. Pivot lag , clubhead lag etc on the downswing he shows! During his real swing lag and drag is there in both directions , from very early in startup to my eye. Same with a lot of the old guys. Nelson for instance.

There's something missing in slo mo swings , even when done by Ben Hogan ! And that something is the momentum provided by motion. In its absence you have to muscle things that arent normally, ideally to my mind, muscled.

Homer was primarily talking about Release motion when he said "let the motion make the shot" . There is a single sentence , a mere six words that could fill an entire book if expanded upon. That would be an interesting book, but very long! Or , perhaps preferably , one could just do the darn motion drills and learn how lag really feels ....

Anybody who doesnt know what a Mehlhorn drill looks like can skip to 2;21 ( albeit with a little extra footwork). Hogan liked to warm up doing a similar drill , without any balls in the locker room for 20 minutes. We can only wonder if Astaire ever met Mehlhorn but we know Hogan did!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pw0X...e=results_main

Masterpiece
 

O.B. You wrote a Masterpiece. Lynn may have some thoughts
but for the most part I would certainly think that he is
proud of what you wrote. I would hope that the post could
be placed, on the website, where it does not get lost.
Many years from now, I hope a very long time, Lynn will be
gone along with the rest of us. Your post should be here
for generations to come as a gift.

Your post presents a lot for me to think about and will
provide guidance for many hours on the range to come.
So much to put in the incubator.

Donn

Thanks Donn. High praise for a guy on a coffee jag who is surrounded by snow and ice and just dying to hit some balls.

Its so hard to write about this stuff, motion. Maybe thats why its out of vogue? The message stays the same too. No need for a new magazine every month if you know what I mean. Yoda would have some notes for me for sure I bet. I am a mere student. He is the master. Think he got the McDonald book from Paul Bertholy if memory serves.

Regards
James

PS

Here are some related quotes :

Ben Hogan from his fifth lesson published in Sports Illustrated Magazine , notice how he says "movements".


Attachment 2961



Re Bobby Jones on Ernest Jones and motion vs parts. (Cant remember where I clipped this from). BTW his endorsement of Ernest Jones was not popular within the ranks of the PGA at the time. This, you could argue, was a bold statement on his part.

Attachment 2962


"The Golf Swing, the Ernest Jones Method" 1920. Ernest Jones on dissecting cats .

Attachment 2963


And since this whole thread started with Hinge Action on the backswing and then turned to into a discussion including the lagging takeaway procedure , the swing back: During the lagging takeaway the clubface does tend to look at the ball longer. Ie this swinging procedure which is extremely compatible with Horizontal hinging and displays such on the through swing does look a little angled ish on the backswing ..... dont worry about this . Its ok.

Great post O.B.

Is a ground/up backswing mutually exclusive with "hands to pivot"? Id say no! The intention is to move the hand somewhere.... the rest of the body complies , facilitates. Th actual sequence of the components varies for the task at hand. When you stoop to pick up some dropped car keys on the ground your primary intention is to reach for it , with your hand! But that doesnt preclude your forward foot loading and then your knees a bending first sequentially, prior to any reaching of the arms and hand.

For me I had to train my right hip to clear in startup (it having been trained to be frozen, stuck in the mud) then I had to forget about it as my intention changed to the primary task at hand. The taking /flinging /swinging of my right hand up plane towards right shoulder high. Theres a momentum to the hand and arms so you dont need to muscle it the whole way up there... it sort of floats the last bit of the way. A prerequisite IMO to being able to "go in both directions at the same time ". Drag load , float load etc. The free flowing swing up sets up the swing down in other words.

The intention is on plane hand (#3pp) travel. The divergent vectors of the arms and pivot are best thought about during re training only . We have no thought to this thing (divergent vectors) during every day motion even though its there! The intention is to reach for the keys so to speak. You dont reach outside of the keys and let your pivot bring the hand back to its target. This is where with all due respect I think Mr Tommessello went a little wrong with his advice to throw the club straight down, vertically into the ground from top. Your intention should be the net result of the divergent vectors ! The intention should be to throw the club down plane which is what he actually displayed when hitting a ball. Even though his arm motion if seeen in isolation (isolated from pivot motion in a drill say ) would be more down than out. If you know what I mean. The intention is to reach for the keys! Or glass or whatever.

No disrespect for TT intended ... one of the greats.

This is exactly the reason TT is one of the greats! Although he uses an alternate aiming point, his mind is still in the hands.

He isn't throwing his arms down plane, he throws them down while the pivot alone provides the forward, resulting in the sweetspot moving down plane. This is the illusion seen in the some of the most powerful swings.

I think this is interesting with regards to aiming point...I feel like if you went to Top and then zero'ed out your pivot and just dumped your accumulators out on plane you would bury the club in the ground several feet behind the ball out but not quite to the plane line....

if you have people do this they will not have "whacky alignments"...generally their wrist conditions will be good...not throwaway trying to hit the ground 3 feet behind the ball or whatever....

You can learn that the arms and club seek the ground down plane...as you add pivot and the turning left shoulder it brings the clubhead forward...you can do this incrementally bringing the fat shot further closer to the ball...still seeking the ground...

I actually have "two aiming points"...I try to sling my arms and sweetspot down and out to the plane line well behind the ball ....BUT....I aim my PIVOT well downplane several feet in front of the ball....I don't try to "see the club hit the ball"....I don't want that....I try to "get out of dodge" with the pivot...the pivot must be quick...to bring the orbit of the sweetspot forward to engage the turf in the correct spot...but maybe you should try to do this or "see" the club do this...

You have found your personal aiming point the correct way by making the arms accomodate pivot speed. :salut: By looking for the club head, the pivot speed might be compromised, and so the only thing to be looking at is the aiming point. This is NOT pivot controlled hands.

TT used different techniques for different students. In one instance, TT told him to actually try to bury the hosel into the ground to the right of his right foot using only the muscles of his arms. This student clearly had such an ingrained pivot, TT knew that it wasn't necessary to even mention it. In only 3 iterations, he was on a new ball striking level beyond anything he could have ever imagined.

nice...would be interesting to have him around....