P/p #2
 

A question if I may please,While I was practicing my chipping today,all went well ,but the question I have today regarding "chipping action",how much emphasis should one put on PP#2,now normally I dont even give PPs too much notice when I chip,really just let club drop using gravity,hinge or whatever I deem necessary at the time,thought PPs would occur naturally,but today whilst focusing on #2pp At what point is there overuse of that pp if in fact there is such a thing as over using it,it really does tend to sling the clubhead down to lowpoint very solidly...Thanks in advance BM

No right or wrong, but for me, when chipping or doing basic motion, it's all about PP #3. I start thinking more about the #2 PP when I move into pitching, or acquired motion when I feel the need to ad PA #2 for a little more zip. I like to keep things as simple as possible, and 1 PA - PP is all I really try to monitor when chipping, and I feel #3 is key. I add #1 when I feel the need to work on my extensor action...

I should add I am a devout hitter, especially in the short game... Your mileage may vary. :-)

Over emphasis on pp # 2 results in the front edge of the club digging a little too much for me and applies more power than I typically want on chip shots. Like Kevin, I focus on #3 and #1. I also insure proper use of flying wedges by setting my right forearm on plane immediately, and then setting up around that.

Hi Dodger. That last sentence changed my entire idea of the golf swing. I hadn't heard it discussed until coming here, I'm a little slow, but very glad I found that information. :thumright

Hope all is well!

Kevin

Hitting chips is great....be sure you get your elbow set up "punch"...you want to have the hinging match on both sides of the ball...angled back and through...which keeps the face looking at the ball more on the backstroke...one thing about #2 is to have enough "softness" in the left wrist to ALLOW the club to throw out...monitor how much grip pressure you have in the "pinky"... also.... keep in mind that CONTROLLED THROWAWAY can be a procedure if you are aware of it and know how to utilize it....

I feel that when using a Pull Minor Basic Stroke. The Left Arm pulling at the #2pp. The Lag sensed at the #3 pp. It not an application of the #2 Power Accumulator, left wrist cock though just a tug at that point of contact, that pressure point.

Is that what you mean? Or are you talking about #2 Power Accumulator , left wrist cock?

Some people define the application of left wrist cock as the dividing line between chipping and pitching.

Hi OB
 

it really is just used as a little reminder tug,"hey dont get lazy" type of feel.It enables me to actually reinforce what I want to do....COMPRESS the ball,even on a small chip.
I can see what you are reffering to in regard to power acc,but no,thats not what I meant,but good point O.B.I was seeking answer to just how much PP#2 should I be using in chipping,I think the guys have prolly answered it.....individual feel,and any more than "feel" may be getting into accumulator status.:eyes:

Nice stuff O.B.

Lots to think about here. I have a "kinda" "outside the conventional box" but not outside TGM. If #2 accumulator is looked at as including the bending of the right elbow, which it must or there will be a cocking of the right wrist, and the position of the right elbow. (pitch, punch, push, etc.). We must seek alignments all the way to the feet. Even for these short strokes. Or compensations. Almost everyone does this (compensation) even the pros on short shots. I do this for putting because no (not much) power is needed and an inefficient machine sometimes has better regulation. Anyway, think about the right elbow.

HB

Good post HB

It's an interesting question. I'd say that assuming one or two accumulator chipping which I personally take to mean no number 2 accumulator then too much pressure at the #2 pp would imply to me too much pulling at the #2 pp which would be accompanied by too much lag pressure at the #3 pp. In other words you're applying too much power for the shot at hand. Lag pressure being associated with power regulation.

Other than that I can't see a problem with too much "attention" to the #2 pp when chipping. It sounds like swinging chipping to me.

There's a distinction to made between the pressure points and the like numbered accumulators. I can feel # 1 when swinging chipping assuming I'm using #1 for extensor action and/or assuming I'm using the #1 (or a reverse #1) for my RFT. Uh that's a whole other topic maybe, the reverse pressure points which Homer discussed but didn't write about.

Couldnt one sense all the pressure points to some degree even for a one accumulator shot? Even though only one of em has the associated power accumulator in use?

There's a distinction to be made between grip pressure and pressure points too. #1 pp has no active grip pressure or very little and # 4 pp isn't even in the hands.

I personally feel the #2 pp is most alive or loaded during drag loading rather than left wrist cocking. When the pivot pulls, the handle via the last three fingers of the left hand down plane with the left wrist turned to plane.

O.B. Sorry friend,Im not sure how to "QUOTE" just one paragraph without the entire post,luckily,The relevent point is in 1st paragraph,lol,you say that too much #2 would involve too much pulling of the club,initself is correct,but my "FEEL" involves this,...if I activate #2 by itself (in chipping),it tends to assist the clubhead into impact zone,to get what Im talking about,hold club in L/hand and give some pressure to last 3 fingers,hopefully you may see what Im on about.
But,Im not forgetting my original query re-too much #2,I do believe that has been answered,thanks again,I rely on your input.
Im trying to adopt TGM lingo,Im learning....Thanks again BM

Ah increased grip pressure at the #2 pressure point.

Grip pressure , pressure points , power accumulators they're related but not the same thing .........

I like a firm grip at the last three fingers of the left hand and at the middle two on the right hand, Hogan style, personally. Well when using my full shot grip as opposed to say a putting type grip with the #3 accumulator zeroed out. Chipping with that grip would normally be for longer chip shots.... longer than 25 yards or so but yes the last three fingers of the left hand are alive with grip pressure and loaded by the pulling . Assuming Swinging chipping ... most likely 4 and 3 in terms of the Power Accumulators if Im using that grip. Two accumulator Swinging chipping in other words.

The "putt chip" with the putting grip for short one Accumulator type chip shots can have a more even grip pressure in the hands. It being a more delicate and precise operation. Gripping down on the shaft (shortening the lever) and zeroing out the #3 angle add considerably more control over distance / lag pressure regulation. We do it when putting why not when short chipping?

Consider the sand wedge, for instance , when chipping with it you're chipping with a club that is designed to hit the ball up to 90 or 100 yards . It makes sense to dial down that potential power by gripping down and zeroing the #3 angle , softening the grip pressure in addition to just shortening the length of the swing. "Machine Adjustments" for added precision and power regulation. Most chips are too long or too short rather than too far left or right. Distance control is job one.

I feel more PP4 PP2 for my iron shots.
Then when I have woods I tend to feel PP3, and PP4, PP2

I never consider PP in chipping because there is so many chipping type strokes, but if I had to think about pitching and some of the shorter swings, I feel that i do use PP1 in a lot without the the other PPs

Pressure sensing in pp#1, #2, #3 are all three keys for me in controlling the dynamic loft of the club through impact as well as power - as far as chipping is conserned. I basically hit those shots with the pivot, and no accumulator #1, #2, #4 release. The only accumulator used is accumulator #3, which is required to produce a rhythm without steering. Sensing #1 and #3 has a lot to do with power regulation, while #2 has a lot to do with rhythm and dynamic loft.

Now that I think about it, one of the key difference between my long game and short game is PP1.
I am a swinger and my right palm is off the grip at impact.
whereas for almost all my short game shots I use PP1 exclusively to feel my distance control.

?? Discussion please. ???

HB

My left arm controls much of my swing
I rely heavily on feeling PP 4 and PP2
My right arm assist and I feel a lot of pressure over the right middle/ring finger when I fade
Depending on my setup I can also feel the pressure over right index finger or left thumb
My swing is such that I do not feel the palm of right hand putting pressure on my left thumb or the shaft

This is an alternate way to keep from slowing down the handle through impact, rather than doing it the correct way.

I hear you well there. What keeps ringing in my head--" drive or throw the entire right forearm through impact not just your hand" (may not be exact quote). Got to force yourself to do this because it's not easy. much easier to throw the hand and take a picture of the shaft bowing forward.

HB

And make sure that the right shoulder is close enough to the ball at the start of the DS, so as to not to run out of right arm. Letting go with pp#1 is the only way to avoid "chaining the handle" because of a right shoulder which is too high.

Define "too high" and at what point in the downstroke?

Just my thinking/opinion the short answer is "Wherever the hands direct the shoulder." The longer answer includes "keep the shoulder not only back but down and moveing with great precission.." (not an exact quote again) - Chapter #13 could be hundreds of pages, but for what reason?

HB

Right Shoulder motion must be precise and comply with the plane and handpath selected...otherwise...trainwreck....different release types and plane angles will produce different shoulder motions....so if you say "too high" or "too low" .... in relationship to what? Lots of variables that must be matched...that's the way i see it anyhow.

So far from the ball that you run out of right arm bend at impact. :confused:

You said "And make sure that the right shoulder is close enough to the ball at the start of the DS, so as to not to run out of right arm. "

I thought you were talking about the start of the downstroke not impact?:eyes:

How could you run out of right arm at the start of the DS? :confused1

Impact is the only place where you can run out of right arm.

Joe, unfortunately, I've seen a couple of videos lately where they are trying to have you feel that #1 is releasing completely at the start of the downstroke. They show the right arm getting straight right away. Running out of right arm before you even have the shaft parallel to the ground. Sad but true...

Kevin

Good grief! :shock:

Now wait a minute....I know the video you speak of....not defending it by any means...but there is another crew West Side...that advocates keeping the right arm bent to the navel too...right arm is ALWAYS seeking to straighten...

I ain't no teacher....but Kev....how many people do you see with their spine backing up? I think the right shoulder going vertical is no good...Hogan's right shoulder stayed high a long time...

The plane angle selected and the procedure selected is gonna dictate to a large extent the right shoulder geometry...it IS a DUAL AGENT no? ..... So say you got a cat that takes his hands up high and is a swinger...he's gonna have to "wait" for his arms to line up with his shoulders before he can turn them to the ball...so you are going to see the right shoulder working more vertical....

if you have a cat like A.P. the King...with low hands and a hitter....his right shoulder can turn out to the plane much earlier...due largely to where his hands are in space....so it's hard to just say...."you better not run of right arm"....you may have your right shoulder down there....but if your center is backing up...that ain't necessarily ideal.

Backing up has always been a huge problem for me as well. I should know better than to post something like that, I didn't mean to disrespect anybody, I can't even remember where I saw the video or who made it. I just remember thinking that straightening the right arm that early went against everything I am learning, I should have dug deeper into what was being dicussed...

My apologies.

Kevin

Dude...no need to apologize.....we're just talkin' G.O.L.F. ....... that post wasn't really directed at you....

Lots of ways to get 'er done. Nobody knows that better than Bucket!

For me, talking G.O.L.F. YODA and his ideas have been magical for me, and have been a huge help to my students as well. TGM and so much more...

Gotta keep the blinders off and realize there are many great teachers with many great ways to play the game. Even Homer Kelley made some statements that lead me to believe nobody knew that better than the man himself. :golf:

We teach "feel is not real" and many feels we may not agree with can get some folks into beautiful alignments depending upon where they started.

You are right Bucket, no need for me to apologize, simply a little slap to myself as a reminder... :oops: :) :salut:

Kevin

If the right wrist is kept level and the right arm is straightened early, #2 power accumulator is thrown away. So the only possible way to retain #2, is to cock the right wrist, which you have been trained not to do. :salut:

Therefore, you have nothing to apologize for! :naughty:

Running out of right arm is basically another name for a flip, right?

So this is about rhythm. If you straighten your right arm early your arms & club are out of sync with the shoulder motion already. I guess you can do that late in the down stroke and get away with it, but it is not what I prefer to do.

IMO the easiest way to avoid running out of right arm is to start with two straight arms and move the hands with the shoulders. I keep both arms as straight as possible when I chip. I've tried the alternatives, but unless a chip-putt is called for, this is what works best for me. And when I do a chip-putt, the shoulders are more rocking than turning and the stroke is even more pivot driven - with two elbows that are more or less frozen bent.

If the stroke is pivot driven through the ball you will never run out of right arm.

In my mind they are seperate issues BerntR. I think of running out of right arm as having to do with the right elbow (right handed golfer) and a flip having to do with the left wrist alignments through impact...

Kevin

Good points Joe, maybe trying to be TOO politically correct. :)

:golfcart:

I have accumulated four books written by Henry Cotton and have been working on something he states consistently. The downswing starts in the same manner as the hands ringing a bell. I used to think this meant the hands move straight down is what he is referring to. Now I realize that the hands move to the right from the top of the backswing, increasing the left wrist cock slightly, the pulling the arrow out of the quiver feel referred to by Homer Kelley. I feel this in PP2, but do not initiate it with pp2. It saves a lot of right arm at impact, really helps keeping the right elbow bent for a long time in the downswing. Mind in the hands, recognizing feel and using pressure points are two different things.

One of Lynn's older videos talks about the power created when you start the body down from top while extensor action pushes the club further away. I think it was part of Alignment Golf. Great stuff!

Kevin