Accumulator 3 Question
 

If one "zero's" out the #3 Accumulator by raising the grip into the cup of the Left Hand, does the #3 Accumulator Action still function normally?

Imo
I dont think so.
my definition of accum #3 is the rolling of the left arm accentuated by the left shoulder turn. This is passively felt at PP#3.

When the angle between the club and left hand is zero, I feel no transfer of power at PP#3 simply because as hard as i might roll the arm it does not rotate the clubface.

Holding the club along the lifeline of the palm makes it very difficult if not impossible to rotate that clubface.

This has been a source of debate in older posts.

Not So 'Zeroed' #3
 

Yes and no.

:confused1

Yes, in that there is still a definite 'Overtaking Action' (of the Hands by the Clubhead) as driven -- actively (Hitting) or passively (swinging) -- by the straightening Right Arm.

No, in that all three Hinge Actions -- Horizontal, Angled and Vertical -- now have the identical Rhythm, i.e., the same Clubhead Travel through Impact to the end of the Follow-Through (Right Arm straight).

:salut:

Is the following quote where we find our perspective on this matter?

So, regardless of the Power it produces, including Zero, then there is still a "Motion" of the #3.

So then, the Accumulator, or the Amount of "overtaking Travel" is the Left Hand/Shaft Alignment, and the Right Hand remains “Clubface Control,” “Rhythm Control,” and “Roll Power Control” of the Right Elbow?

So, may I interpret that you are saying that the #3 “Clubface Control,” “Rhythm Control,” and “Roll Power Control” of the Right Elbow,,, is the Straightening Right Arm?

It seems to be, that "Roll Power" applies to both Swingers and Hitters. If it applied to only Hitters, then HK would have used the term "Roll Force".

Swingers using "Extensor Action" are "Actively" straightening their Right Arms, although it's Non-Accelerating.

That clears a lot of fog.

Hmm? Here's a clincher:

Daryl,
Before you put too much thought into this - let's keep it simple.
No, it doesn't function "normally".
#1 it goes from supplying power (assuming #3 pressure point has some pressure)to providing no power (regardless of the amount of number 3 pressure point pressure).
#2 There is no "overtaking action" when you have a zeroed out number three accumulator - the clubhead doesn't move when you twist your left hand in place with a zero number three accumulator. You need some #3 accumulator to have an "overtaking action". See 6-B-3-A last sentence. Lynn knows this - he was probably thinking of a different context when he originally posted to your question.

Just trying to save your sanity.:)

Mike, I understand what you're saying and it makes perfect sense to me. I'm more than satisfied with yours and Yoda's answers.

I think that we all see it the same way. That although the amount of power generated by the #3 Accumulator is the Left Hand/Clubshaft Angle, the motion of the Right Hand Paddle Wheel and the Straightening Right Arm, which controls that Power, is still present. It still exists.

Let me keep my posts clear - my first post answered your first post of this thread - your question - nothing more. I consider your post above - bringing a whole new question/ subject matter to the topic. I certainly don't see [I]"the motion of the Right Hand Paddle Wheel and the Straightening Right Arm, which controls that Power, is still present.[/I] as my viewpoint.

Mike, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. If I ever do, I would make you say: "Hey Bucket, for the last time, put down that Goat".

The Amount of Travel is Left Hand/Clubshaft Adjustment and "Active or Passive, the straightening Right Elbow with its Paddlewheel Action, powers, guides, and regulates the #3 Accumulator Motion". So, it seems to me that as long as the Right Arm is Straightening with its Paddlewheel Action, then the mechanism for powering, guiding, and regulating the #3 Accumulator Motion, is still present in the Golf Swing.

With a Stationary Pivot, Basic Motion, Back and Forth and Zero #3 Accumulator, the Clubface is Opening and Closing to the Plane Line. That's Left Arm Primary Lever for sure, but its guided and regulated by the "Straightening of the Right Arm with its Paddlewheel Action". No?

Absolutely.

Fine, however, just realize that you're taking a quote from 6-B-1-0 and applying it to the "whole" third accumulator 6-B-3-0 - you can get it a little out of context doing that. It's not the only or required powering source for the #3 accumulator (see 6-B-3-A) - you have other options/ contributors available - depending on shot length etc.

And trust me - he ain't putting down the goat - that's a waste of energy to even ask him that.

And that, the visual 'opening and closing' of the Clubface and the in-line Travel of the Left Arm and Club (Primary Lever), is the result of maintaining the Vertical Left Wrist through the Impact Interval. This is the required Overtaking -- albeit without the Maximum Power or Maximum Trigger Delay present when the Club is Gripped under the Heel of the Left Hand (a normal #3 Accumulator Left Hand-Clubshaft Angle) -- of the Hands by the Club, even with a Zeroed #3 Accumulator (Angle).

The Hands and the Clubhead are, after all, moving in concentric circles, and the Clubhead, with or without any #3 Angle, simply must move from one side to the other and always outside the arc of the Hands.

:salut:

I think that if you use your right hand for anything but sensoring (and possibly that too - because you can't sense without applying some pressure) - and combine it with zero (and not just close to zero but zero) accumulator #3 - you will disturb the rhythm. The only exception is when you steer, such that PP #1, #2 and #3 forces the left wrist to be flat at all times. But without steering and without accumulator #3 lag any pressure from the right hand will disturb the rhythm.

IMO

Chapter #13
 

There are "things" that, given a limitation on degrees of freedom a machine cannot "do" without violating a degree of freedom.
So from a mechanical perspective there are two paths. recognize this or just let your eyes glaze over and make necessary compensations.

The Bear

After consideration.
 

After thinking about the question posed at #1.

My answer is NO!

Because ZERO accumulator is NOT an accumulator.

The condition is one of a BASIC machine, constructed with a hinge action, preferred either (dual) horizontal, angled, or (dual) vertical. (if you want to stay on an inclined plane)

Only capable of being pushed or pulled through impact.

there is no out of line condition of the secondary lever assembly.
there is no secondary lever assembly.

Just my opinion.

The Bear

Sounds like good thinking to me, HB.

Nice Hungry Bear!

Dude . . . he's not a REAL bear moron . . . some bears can be taught to drive, fart on command, star in low budget films and eat cheetoz . . . but type??? Freakin' moron.

Plus . . . some accumulators can be zeroed out and just supply motion no?

I do, however, find bears far more attractive than sheep and goats. I think that puts me way further up the evolutionary ladder than you 12 Piece... :)

Kevin

Mr. So-fist-toe-kate-id.

LOL

You are still the GREATEST online persona in golf 12 Piece Bucket!

Kevin

Dumbazz - He is a bear! Based on your definition above - Are you are Bear? You fit the criteria!

If I'm a bear you're a hampster.

Fourth?
 

Need a Fourth???

The Bear

Maybe it wasn't a very good question.

When the #3 Accumulator is Zeroed out, there is no "Overtaking Action".

My Question: "Does the #3 Accumulator Action still function normally?", maybe I should have asked:

1. "Do you still swing the same way?" or
2. "Are the Alignments of the machine the same with or without the #3 Accumulator?" or
3. "Does the Power Package release change in any Way?" or
4. "If the #3 Accumulator is partly responsible for the Closing of the Clubface in relation to the Plane Line, is that Closing activity still present when there is no "Overtaking Action?".

Does the #3 Accumulator have a Dual Role? "Basic Motion" (Basic Geometry or Basic Alignment) uses Zero Pivot and uses Zero #3 Accumulator by Placing the Club into the Cup of the Left Hand. During the Backstroke, the Clubface Turns and during the Downstroke it Rolls. Is that caused by the same mechanism that operates the #3 Accumulator? Or, is it simply "Orbiting Arms", 2-G. There are two versions of the #3 Accumulator, Left Hand Version and Right Hand Version.

"Mike O" alluded to another mechanism for operating the #3 Accumulator:
If Mike O finished sweeping snow off the tee boxes, perhaps he can expand his comment.

One more thought: Essential Geometry.

OK-My Opinion:

1. No!
2. No!
3. Yes!
4. Yes! because of hinge action and pivot not because of #3- but it seems all the same with rhythm?

#1-#2-#3 because, for an accumulator #3 other than zero there is an required plane shift and/or manipulation. I argue that the necessary plane shift is part of release. With the proper adjustment a #3 accumulator with no #2 activity or #2 active with no #3 activity.
Just My opinion - and food for thought.:think:

May I add that this may have limited utility.
The Bear

You'd probably have to use a strong double action grip to hit the ball properly without accumulator#3, because you wouldn't have any time or hand travel to do the roll. 100% of the wrist cock could be attributed to accumulator #2 and you could use angled hinge or perhaps vertical hinge with no roll through the ball.

But a single action grip with accumulator #2 and without acc#3 would require an instant roll. Since we have an impact interval, it wouldnt be possible to hit the ball straight even if the instant roll was possible.

Speaking of morons, I'm having a moment of complete bewilderment!
 

Normally, as most of you know, I'm comfortable with that sensation (Daryl, will still take a shot, but I expect that.) :)

I'm hoping this is not thread-jacking since I'm referring to # 3 PP exclusively.


Hello men. I thought I'd share this event with really experienced folks to see if I have finally gone off the edge trying to catch the "white whale."

I was playing a second 18 a couple of Saturdays ago and my # 3 PP started to tingle and it was all I could feel. Edz's "support the swing in balance" came to my mind so I did it.

I stopped thinking of mechanics and concentrated on putting my mind in my hands or # 3 PP.

This caused some very strange dominos to fall. My left wrist at shoulder level was almost flat enough to hold a glass. My right palm was up all the way through impact. I felt like I was holding water in my palm and moving to support it all the way through. I could fire my arm or swing and feel the # 3 and the ball really felt to compress, making a nice zzzzzzz sound with irons or soft "ch" sound at impact with hybrids and woods.

I really had to change my downswing so much that I felt I was crazy. Sometimes I couldn't trust it since it was so strange and I would ignore it and clack a ball.

After realizing that I could shoot a low 80 something with it, I decided to trust it. After the round, I felt my triceps and outer leg muscles so stressed that I thought I had worked out for an hour; my muscles were sore.

Now, I feel that # 3 PP all the time, swinging or hitting.

Have you guys ever ever experienced this? Is it good or stupid? When I was straightening my right arm last week to shoot a 39 on 9 holes, I tilted my hand so I could thrust that # 3 PP into the ball.

I don't want to trust a feeling made of bad mechanics. I think maybe the right palm up and flat left wrist at shoulder level is supporting the # 3 PP and compensating for my leg imbalance?

I'm confused. :(


YBGF

Yes the grip needs to change but I believe that places no restriction on hinge action if we place all hinge action at the shoulder-I need to think that through- maybe only angled hinging available

the limited utility caveat remains.

The Bear

Zero #3 Accummulator
 

Zero #3 Accummulator Automatically becomes vertical hinging. Clubface remains in its Fix position throughout the stroke. Manual Clubface Manipulation. It is a feelng of no roll or reverse roll.

:)

I didn't make the rule's!

Yes, you did make up the "Rules".


The "Book" states that with Zero #3 Accumulator:

But answer this question: "Can a golfer perform Vertical Hinging while using a #3 Accumulator Roll?"

[quote=Daryl;76972

But answer this question: "Can a golfer perform Vertical Hinging while using a #3 Accumulator Roll?"[/QUOTE]

-------------------------------------------------------------
I do believe that mechanically, YES it can be done- BUT - why? You can then not do ANY of the imperatives nor strike the ball , if you are able to strike the ball, with a club head velocity greater than 10-25 mph. AND I would question if this is a true "#3 roll" AND I would love to see it performed with vertical hinging that is not dual-vertical.

The hinges are SHOULDER things the hand and wrist actions are mechanically separate. (Although HK suggests that holding hand flat and vertical to the suggested plane is good feel-visual practice for hinging).
You could take an inverted grip, keep a flat left wrist, use a reverse wrist cocking procedure and invent a new hinge and strike the ball but WHY?

#3 accumulator SHOULD be used with RHYTHM not just flipped around the left arm. It is built into the primary lever assembly and should neither distort the wedge nor the coordination of the wedges. (For best results that is said)

Just my opinions.

Note- I have seen both Ted and Yoda demonstrate #3 Transfer Power by this almost vertical rolling the left wrist and club and it is VERY effective for demonstrating but I cringe because it loses the rhythm and on plane characteristics so vital to its application.

The Bear

Hi Bear,

Why do you think that HK said "Vertical Hinging" is manipulation?

Without having thought through your question. My simple intuition is that - U prolly has to do sumpin "bad" - Joel Chandler Harris said that -in dialect - Local Humor? ---(like I was exaggerating to in my previous comment)- to make it work. like a little extra cocking and bending in the wrists to get things on plane- or Just dont use accumulators #2 or #3? and a "little" pick N' Peck.

I could stir this pot a little-
I think there are easy and hard manipulations- likely BOTH vertical and horizontal hinging has manipulation and angled hinging does not need manipulation if it has coordination. I think vertical hinging and #3 do not fit without manipulation and Horizontal hunging and #2 accumulator do not fit without manipulation. Having said that I better explain- First , when a swing, we rotate so that the primary release of #2 is on plane and then we roll the clubface wertical so it passes "horizontal" to the ground BUT #2 is still uncocking and that is an vertical manipulation to allow the "sweet spot" to stay on the inclined plane. Now for vertical hinging #2 can be made coorinate and #3 must then be manipulated (reverse roll??) . I see it working with the horizontal hinge because everything is down, out or forward where with vertical hinging things are "kind of" down, in or back.

Realizing that this takes some visualization and a Lot of "hand flying" as the aerobatic pilot calls it. So- "hand fly" it yourself. That is what HK suggests!



The Bear

Vertical Hinging requires a "Reverse" of the #3 Accumulator Roll. This Clockwise rotation is opposite of the Counterclockwise Roll that produce Angled and Horizontal Hinging. In other words, the Right Elbow would move faster than the Hands, which isn't going to happen, so "Action and Motion" must be produced by a "Reverse Swivel Roll" of the Hands. The Hands are Clamps, and therefore any disturbing motion is manipulation. Can we develop a "perfect Vertical Hinge" with a 3 dimensional Impact? Probably not, but we can come very close.

PUTT

The Bear

Feel very little "UP" in Stage One Basic Motion
 

Sorry for the semi thread jump, but thought this would be a good spot to ask questions on "Stage One Basic Motion" Would this be a correct sequential description of Basic motion START-UP? Resisting or holding the left shoulder from turning as my right forearm simultaneously fans and pulls my left arm across my chest while applying extensor action and at the same time my right forearm is pointing at the baseline of the plane until I have moved the club approximately two feet. If I am missing something or have misinterpreted this please help me. However the move I have trouble reconciling is when you add the full pivot stroke and one has programmed the above procedure in computer dependability it seems that one would be more inclined to go to much IN and not enough up. I love the feel of the up move on the full swing; however I feel hardly any UP move in my Basic Motion.

I would agree.