pivot controlled hands elbow plane a subconscious procedure?
 

pivot controlled hands, elbow plane, a subconscious procedure?

This is a part of TGM that I don't understand at all.

It feels entirely opposite to me. More hands control the lower and closer to the body I bring my hands down to impact.

Bunch of great questions there , Whip. Which require great answers. Sorry, for being the first responder. My first girl friend was French and so I subscribe to the Good Samaritans Law. Im not a Doctor but I will try to not kill you.

Fortunately for you, the information you seek is here and available via the search function with the poster being Lynn Blake.

Remember Homer was talking in terms of a mechanical ideal in regard to zero shift. Something that would require a disregarded for lie angle and an Aligning of the Right Elbow , Forearm and the shaft to the TSP. A very high set of hands by normal standards.


Lynn, if memory serves, has said that the Elbow Plane or Shaft Plane is "natural" and so the shift to and from the TSP to the Elbow Plane must be "natural" to my mind as well. But it important to note that Lynns TSP is located via a Flat Back Shoulder Turn, thereby minimizing Plane Shift. Flat Back and Down Plane being Standard Shoulder Turn, TSP. A TSP being the only way one can initiate Startdown with the shoulders, specifically the Right Shoulder and see it drag the Hands down the Inclined Plane. There is no other way.

And so you have a very small shift, making it less hazardous so to speak. See Brian Gay from a DTL point of view for instance. Minimal shift, TSP , Elbow Plane at Impact. There's high elbow planes and there's low one's.

I recall Homer talking about the (lower) Elbow Plane as being a "psychological preference" of some golfers. Meaning that for some reason they preferred it despite the fact that there was another more mechanically ideal way. But Homer firmly believed that for the weekend golfer anyways psychological or physical preferences where often better compensated for than challenged by the instructor.

I bet if you were to take a series of lessons with Homer he'd never let you keep you Shoulder Turn Takeaway though.......

Daryl's got some photos of guys making contact on the TSP .....it sure looks steep to my eye anyways. Hogan and Gay are Elbow Plane but minimal shift I'd say.

Is your left wrist level at address?

Remember if your Shoulders alone power your backswing they will take your Hands where they are going.....around and IN but only slightly UP. To get the Hands, BACKWARDS, IN and UP (on plane in other words) you need to add UP via the bending Right Elbow to the IN supplied by the Pivot. Two different vectors , two different but co-ordinated actions. As outlined in the McDonald drill that Lynn loves so much. This is Hands to Pivot.

Simplicity buffs could just say to themselves......"take your bent right hand to right shoulder high".....that'd most likely see a good pivot happen without any thought to it. Sort of like reaching for something. "Rocking the triangle", a shoulder turn with a frozen right elbow was a disaster, death move of a swing theory.

Agreed Brian has little shift on the downswing but by my eye he is on the TSP.

I tried to make that work for about 6 months. It went really well, actually:liar: My median score went up with approx 6-7 strokes per round and I never had three good strokes in a row out on the course. I had a lot of rounds where none of the full strokes felt really solid. I was spraying balls everywhere. And the best shots were still flirting with loss of lag pressure at impact so the distance control was not good.

The bottom line is that I run out of left arm if I start from a level left wrist. Thus I need to stall something to find the sweet spot. That basically happens automatically but the result is highly unpredictable. If my hand and eye coordination didn't work overtime I would be topping every single shot from that address position.

I knew I was back to good old self when I was the anchor man in a scramble this Sunday. On an "almost" reachable par 5 (for my distance) I first hit a low draw that curved around a fairway bunker and came to rest about as close to the green as you could get while still being in the fairway. Plus 1 yard. I hit the 2. shot with a 5 wood from a down hill semi rough lie close to the water with bushes blocking my flight line towards the flag. As I addressed the ball with the hands low and way forward of the ball I "knew" I had the shot. And that I could hit it as hard as I wanted to. I didn't flush it, but it still curved nicely around the bushes and came to rest about a yard outside the green. We didn't get the eagle but the birdie was a formality.

To get back to topic, I think a flat shaft plane doesn't necessarily indicate that a plane shift is going on. You can see a very distinct plane shift in some players but in others it looks like a more gradual thing. The club head could very well be moved on a steep plane even though the shaft is kept on a flatter plane at all times. It could even be moved on a curved plane for all I know. A plane that gradually flattens towards impact.

A shiftless compensation free TSP stroke is problematic unless you're playing somewhere in outer space. Earth gravity plays a part in this. Just think what it must take to keep the club and the hands on the same flat plane throughout the down stroke while mother earth with it's 9.81 m/s2 acceleration moves every part of the club 5-10 inches towards the ground. It goes without sayin that a pure rope handling stroke without any shaft loading and steering must have a moving aiming point that starts outside the plane line and gets closer and closer to the plane line - to account for earth gravity.

But I also think there are biological reasons for a flat shaft plane. Our shoulders like to turn quite horizontally and so do our hands when they are close to impact, holding a club. It takes a lot of hula hula to steepen those motions for more than a brief span of the total motion. And - as is evident in most of the freshmen to this fine sport - if you don't tame the horizontal part of your pivot turn in the early part of the down swing you will find your club outside the plane. A flatter shaft plane enables us to utilize the shoulder turn better through the ball than a steep plane. But you can only utilize that if you bring your clubhead and hands down towards the elbow plane.

Somehow it just seems much easier to sustain horizontal lag than vertical lag without dancing all over the place. Basically talking about accumulator #3 lag here. It has a far bigger range of motion than Accumulator #2. When you approach impact with a flatter shaft angle you have the opportunity to save more Accumulator #3 lag for longer.

I also did my homework with a swing laser this last winter. The lesson I learned was that it was rather difficult and quite powerless for me to perfectly trace the plane line with the club shaft in the upper half of the swing. As soon as I stepped on the gas the grip side of the laser was pointing way outside the plane line. This happens regardless of how steep I am swinging with my hands.

One of the really fundamental differences between striking the ball with a TSP shaft plane and an elbow shaft plane is how you can thrust with your pivot through the ball. If you swing on the TSP you need to release more accumulator #4 earlier and there will be a sense of disconnection between the hands and the pivot at impact (relatively speaking). This disconnection coincides well with starting the back swing with a right forearm pickup. What goes up will come down.

When you strike the ball with the shaft on an elbow plane you have the opporutnity to take advantage of a much tighter connection between the pivot and the hands through impact, and hence, more acccumulator #4 release later. It almost feels like I'm firing accumulator #4 straight into the ball when I hit my most solid shots. At least with a short iron where I can really keep things tightly connected for a long time.

If you don't want your pivot to dominate impact you can thrust with your Right Hand - or both hands - and go fully manual through impact. To me that feels like much better hands' control although less independent hands' motion than trying something similar on TSP. On the elbow plane I can basically hit the ball as low as I want to with any club and I hardly ever go for automatic trajectory height inside 150 yards. Lower seeems to give more predictable distances. The notion that elbow plane is pivot controlled hands doesn't make sense to me.

To appreciate the good hands' control that can be had on the elbow plane it is important to realise that the vertical swing center in the body has to be lower through impact on the elbow plane than on the TSP. If you don't lower the physical swing center within you, you will get a tendency to flipping because the push pull forces through the hands will not maintain a balanced relationship as the shaft plane progresses downwards.

I think perhaps some of the TSP ambassadours (slash elbow plane dismissers) really haven't figured out how they need to adjust the pivot motion to get the best possible result and max hands control on the elbow plane. There has to be a greater separation between the plane(s) of the shoulders turn and the plane that the ball is struck on. If you're used to TSP you need to feel as if you're swinging above the ball with your shoulders, yet swinging through the ball with your hands.

Further, to balance the push and pull pressure that is transmitted to the club through your hands (and important for clubface control and basically everything that matters) you need to keep more of the horizontal part of Accumulator #4 angle and you can drive your hips much farther through before you strike the ball. That will assure that you have more lag left at impact and thus a larger margin for timing error.

The difference in impact position between Brian Gay and Jim Furyk shows what I'm talking about. Those two are possibly as far apart in this regard as you will find on the highest level of the game. Jim has his hips almost facing the target at impact. He has a lot of Accumulator #4 lag left before the club overtakes the pivot. Brian's hips are facing the ball, and if you look at still pictures it looks like he has fired the last charge before the ball is gone. Seing the whole motion tells another story though, but it is clear that Brian goes through the ball with a lot less total lag than Jim does. And based on my own experience I would say that Jim probably feels more ground force through impact than Brian does. Personally I think Jim Furyk's swing is a work of art.

Jim Furyk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTuTrpWCZhU

Brian Gay: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP3scE26VdI

Modern club design plays a bit of a role IMO.

Most people would do better with shorter clubs and slighly more upright lie angles than the current standard fit.

The reason is that this puts you naturally where both the body, and the club design, want to go (physics)

A big part of the reason a huge majority of golfers setup with a cocked left/right wrist position (clubs too long, too flat).

That too long/flat design adds to the too much 'around' move, which can end up on the elbow plane.

The need to sell new 'longer' designs for clubs each year isn't likely to change, but it is certainly worth considering clubs with shorter shafts to naturally get into a better address position (that which is short enough and upright enough to have level wrist positions naturally at address).

I diss the Elbow Plane, but in all seriousness, it's an elegant swing. Elbow Swing Players with lots of accumulator release separation are more like artists than golfers.

I can use the Elbow Plane as well as anyone but I don't like the amount of physical effort. I don't like any physical effort. I hate the effort and I won't swing a club that way. It takes all of the fun out of the game for me. The TSP is a no-physical-effort way to swing. Zone 1 is simple and the overall feel is that I'm just making a motion. Comparatively, the Elbow Plane Zone 1 just tires me out. I'd rather go to the gym and do 3 sets of a Total body workout.

Here's my comparison, with the TSP I can hit 500 Drives and I don't get tired. With the Elbow Plane, I'm wasted after 100 balls and my hands and core muscles will hurt the remainder of the day. I'm sure that if I did it every day for years, that wouldn't be the case.

On the other hand, in favor of the Elbow Plane, it's very pleasurable to set up at 50 yards from the Green and plunk 200 balls using the elbow plane. I find very few things in life as pleasurable. I can do it with my eyes closed.

Focus on the bending back of the right wrist, and right forearm tracing. Sounds like too much turn going back (over swivel).

No thanks,

Knowing what I know now, I don't want the shaft to point at the plane line before late in the down swing. Beside, it's the other way around. I have to bend the right wrist less (and waste Accumulator #3) to get closer to pointing at the plane line.

That was fun and well said, Daryl!

As far as energy consumption goes the TSP is probably the more environmental friendly alternative. But EP is the healthier one.:laughing9

I agree that there is more work involved in EP. But the major part of it is done by the big muscles and hitting from the feet feels really effortless. So I don't mind spending a few calories extra.

I like the fact that I can go by my instinct. I don't try to loosen the grip or anything fancy when I want extra distance. I simply try to hit the ball harder from feet up :-) Same thing basically when I want to take off a few yards, which I do quite often when there's wind on the course.

How is this relevant to actually playing golf? You don't hit 500 drives in a round....shouldn't the choice be made on what works best?

Pure elbow plane without shifting or looping is anatomically more difficult maneuver.

Just think about the elbow joint.

It's main function is flexion and extension with minimum contribution from supination and pronation.

Whenever I try to consciously swing powerfully with ONLY on my right elbow I develop pain from medial epicondylitis(golfer's elbow). The reason is that I try to pronate too much at the elbow joint.

I think that why it's necessary to have a shifting or looping so that the other joints, naming the shoulder joint is involved to prevent injury.

The shoulder has a much greater range of motion simply because it's a ball and socket joint. Most golfers use a combination of shoulder/elbow plane.


Here some examples of golfers who I consider to use pure elbow plane.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Zcq3GT-KYM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC4hgHucPY4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gVIjCr-76c

It's just my experience.

What works best before the lesson or after the lesson?

Elbow Plane Vs. Turned Shoulder
 

Great vids, dlam. Thanks for posting!

Each of these players is unquestionably using the Elbow Plane during the Release Interval. However, it appears to me that Michael Allen shifts in the Backstroke to the Turned Shoulder Plane (albeit a bit laid-off at the Top). What say you?

Also, would like to see TA III with the longer stroke of the driver. Any clips available?

:salut:

It seems that Tommy and Allen have a short backstroke such that the forearm and shaft remain at the elbow plane and comes down. Is this the easiest way to use elbow plane?

I don't think it's the easiest way to learn it, but some of the greatest ball strikers of all times - for instance Ben Hogan - have been known for very little independant arms motion. It's all about pivot and hands. And very quiet arms. So it may be worth the effort still.

Yoda, here's TA III driver swings from anterior and lateral view.
To me it looks elbow plane in backswing and forward swing through impact
then he somehow ends up on a shoulder plane on the follow through.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pkghw...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3Vi2ehhwtQ&NR=1

As long as we're sharing video's.

TSP vs. Elbow Plane. This guy advocates the TSP without Arm or Hand motion. :)

Red line = TSP
Yellow Line = Elbow Plane

It couldn't be more clear. Unfortunately, other than the concept of "Rhythm" and the "Flying Wedge Alignments", he doesn't know about the "Right Forearm Takeaway" and Zone 1 needs a lot of work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_niCpfKbG4&NR=1

In Hogan's book he draws out a plane that starts from the top of his shoulders to the clubface and he takes his club back along this "plane". His forward swing is inside that "plane"
I think Hogan's definition of plane is very different from Homers
In Homer's "plane" (correct me if i'm wrong) it is the arc that the clubshaft travels.
According to Homer if we look at Hogan's swing his takeaway is EP goes to a TSP at the top of the plane then back to an EP in the forward plane.

I think his flat swing is due to EP through impact.

Love TA3...great little float load as well even with the quicker tempo.

I personally employ a Single Shift. 10-7-B. Elbow to TSP on the way back and then TSP the whole way down. Dont know why I do it , I just do. Normally from End making me a 10-23-C type.

Here's a great Yoda post from a while back on Single vs Double Shift and a typo in the 6th edition's 12-2-O, component 23 for the Drag Loading , Swinger.



http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/a...d=128337960 5

Here is the photo showing the Standard Shoulder Turn, Flat back and then On Plane going down. Note the arrows.

Shown with a zero shift and the TSP as well.

Yoda teaches this Shoulder Turn for sure and the TSP but not necessarily the zero shift.



http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/a...d=128338073 7

Hi OB, and everyone. I think I have been doing something with a mistaken premise.
 

If I start with Mid-Body Hands, Standard Address, and RFT to my END, and not move my hands a smidge, and simply Pivot all the way down, won't I be shooting # 3 pp straight at the inside quadrant of the ball by letting the right shoulder slide down plane?

I think I get lost on the way down "firing" # 3 pp as if it were a disconnected tool. My short iron hits are simple. I don't have to Pivot and I can Karate Chop down to the ball and it goes mountain climbing down the target line. The minute I have to Pivot, I keep worrying my leg imbalance will throw off my aim. If I could hit with a Pivot just letting the Power Package slide down with the shoulder on plane, not worrying about the thrust of # 3 pp, it seems much simpler. Instead of blasting my left arm off my chest, I roll down my right shoulder and Power Package to slice down on the ball sending it up and on target line.

With a swing, I just load up my left wrist and body snap it into the ball. As long as I take a practice swing and keep the ball in front of the Down point, it is mountain climbing time and scoring city.

Patrick

Free ride........take it easy...
 

This brings up an important point that ties into the necessity for Hands to Pivot.

The Hands and the Shoulders (specifically the Right Shoulder) are not on the same plane at Address. So they can not travel in the same direction to meet up on the Inclined Plane at Top, as they must. (If you want to Startdown with the Right Shoulder pulling the Hands downplane , swing from the feet, not startdown with the Hands , ground up downstroke sequence......a very good thing). They travel their own unique paths to get to their meeting place. Employing a Standard Shoulder Turn the Right Shoulder turns Flat Back and the Hands via the RFT , fanning and bending (right elbow) travel back , in and UP. That UP is critical.

Once united on the Inclined Plane at Top the Right shoulder takes the Hands Down the Inclined Plane BUT only to a point. From there they go their own way again. At impact the Right Shoulder and the Hands are no longer on the Inclined Plane together (even if you stay on the TSP as the Right Shoulder has moved off the TSP)

This entire bit of business serves one purpose , one critical alignment.......the onplane transport of the Hands in Startdown, by the Pivot, the Right Shoulder specifically which was pulled in term by the Hips etc etc. Something hacks dont achieve but good golfer do. Best practiced and learned with Startdown Waggles.

The pivot plays an important part but it is not boss. It should also be noted that Zone two is Power not zone 1.........ever see a catcher throw a bullet to 2nd base from his knees. Faldo and Knudson were great great golfers but neither was very long...........

In TGM terms,
My natural tendency is TSP in the backswing then shift to EP for the forward swing.
I tried different patterns but if I haven't played for a while I usually return to the above pattern.

That was a very good clarification of the role of the right shoulder OB Left.

However, the pivot is the Black Jack of power generation. Work done by the most significant joints in the body during a golf stroke:

1) Lumbar
2) Right hip
3) Thoracic
4) Left hip and right elbow.
6) ........

Source: http://www.jssm.org/vol4/n4/18/v4n4-18pdf.pdf

I've added the numbers:

74% Zone 1
20% Zone 2 (11% elbows, 9% shoulders)
6% Zone 3 (Wrists)

This are the average figures across 4 golfers on different skills level. Their power profiles varies very little.


As a curiosity, the table also shows that the left ancle and left knee does negative work. You have the cause of Tigers previous knee injury right there in black and white. So if you flare your front foot more open at address, the Zone 1 percentage is likely to increase.

Its in the book......Double shift, 10-7-B and see 10-23-B Angled Line.

As a side note, read the description of the procedure in the second paragraph of 10-23-B :

"From the Top -of-the Straight -Line hand position the Hands take a nearly vertical path to the Plane of the Elbow Angle before they start their drive directly at and through the Aiming Point (2-J-3)"

Then take a close look at the photo .....do you see that faint black , shadowy arrow that points at the ball? This arrow represents the Aiming Point concept graphically.

This "vertical drop" is also especially useful for golfers who get their Hands above a TSP at Top or End. In this situation since the Right Shoulder and the Hands are not on the same Inclined Plane any movement of the Right Shoulder in Startdown would pull the Hands down but also out over the plane. Hence the need to "drop" the Hands near vertically. It was a popular move back in the high hands days of the 1970's. The first generation of white belts with plaid pants.

Interesting stuff, Ill give it a read tonight, thanks.

I played with a 75 year old guy last week. He could barely walk, I had to help him in and out of bunkers for instance. As close to zero pivot as you could probably get.......but what a set of hands on the guy. He'd been playing for 60 years and you could tell. He could still hit it 200 off the tee.

Standing on one leg I can hit it pretty good. Some guys can hit it 250 off their knees.

If you took the arms totally out of the swing by lashing a club to your body in some manner.........how far could you hit it? I dont think very far. In essence, its a comparison of the speed of the Right Shoulder vs the Hands isnt it? You can get a little right shoulder into the ball even off your knees it should be noted.

Dont get me wrong, I think the Pivot is very important and adds tremendously to Power for sure but the Arms are the primary source of Power. Ill give it a read though ......I'm here to learn and improve thats all....which means making mistakes. Lots of em.

Right shoulder points at the plane line AND the right forearm points at the plane line (just different planes). The difference between TSP and EP is the hands are not on the same plane as the right shoulder, thereby making it somewhat "hazardous".
Any shifting is hazardous for this reason.

Axis tilt in a pivot controlled hands procedure is critical, whereas its not quite as critical in a hands controlled pivot. Keep in mind with PCH you aren't really monitoring your hands, and doing very little tracing if any.

It might help you to know that the Elbow Plane is more of a "Curved" Plane. It theory, your hands travel down, then out. In Practice, they travel a curved path to the Ball. So,,,,if you allow your hands to swing up to a TSP or Square Shoulder Plane then you'll have more curve. If you allow your hands to stop at the height of your right shoulder, AKA Ben Hogan, then the curve is shallow and more or less can approach a straight line. So, control the curve by not changing the backstroke length from club to club.

It may also help to know that the More Shallow the Plane Angle, the more Hip Slide (Axis tilt) you need to start and keep the Right Shoulder on a downward path until release. To generate a lot of downward force you might want to use this procedure. Your right shoulder will move outward at release. "Hip Slide-then-Turn" needs to be more exaggerated when using the elbow plane.

It may also help to know that in Elbow Plane Swings, Ball position is very critical with the length of clubs you chose. The Ball position of a driver is very different than the Ball Position for a Nine Iron. This is done by changing the width of your stance. Pay close attention to the distance between your right Hip and Ball because release occurs when the Elbow nears your right hip during the downstroke and the Outward force overcomes the downward force. Narrow stances for short clubs and wider stance for longer clubs.

Last but not least is that while swinging on the Elbow Plane, your right Elbow and #3 PP are ON-Plane at Release and Impact. It's vital not to run out of right arm (Straightening) because doing so moves the Right Elbow Off Plane (Above Plane). So, keep the Right Shoulder moving.

whip,

I think the right shoulder and the axis tilt basically plays the same role on EP as on TSP even though the geometry is slightly different.

You basically bring the arms back to a place where everything is well connected (whether you're a TSP-er or an EP-er). From there, the EP-er goes deeper with the right shoulder due to more increase in lateral bend of the spine. No independent arms motion until later in the down swing - much later than if you swing on the TSP and throw the right arm off the chest during transition.