PP3--Top to End
 

In the Free Gallery--LBG Videos---PP3 Where Are You-- Yoda teaches that #3 pressure point for the Hitter is behind the shaft at the Top but the Swinger in continuing to End has it on top of the shaft. He also discusses elbow position.

What happens to accomplish this change?

Ref: 7-3 STROKES--BASIC , second paragraph

I love this topic. Love it. Just going from Top to End should do it I think, DOC. Hence Homer's preference for Hitters to stop at Top and then Drive Load that first joint with Lag Pressure. Drive the wet mop!

The knuckle vs the first joint. One on the top of the handle, one on the aft. As per the Flying Wedges! 90 degrees to each other. You need a good right hand grip, see Hogan's.

Drag one or Drive the other.

Drag then Drive's OK too. That'd be your Four Barrel.

But .....Drag and Drive at the same time?????? Swing and Hit at the same time? One trying to drag the left hand while its turned to the plane and the other trying to push the left hand off the plane all at the same time? That'd scatter your Vectors wouldnt it?

Trying to develop a question! In the interim, from 7-3, the right forearm position at the Top is different for Hitters and Swingers. What are the primary contributors? Also, is it correct that Top is hands at shoulder level?

7-3 makes reference to a different Right Elbow position for the Arc and Angle of Approach Procedures. You can Hit and use the Arc or the Angle but Swinging you can only use the Arc. The Arc and the Angle do not share the same Plane Line so to be precise its not just the Right Elbow position that differs! 2-J-3 is a big mess of worms.....hard to understand for a few thousand readings.

Yes, Top is Right Shoulder High.

To answer your question very basically , your Right Forearm and therefore Elbow support the loading action ......is in line with the direction of the loading action. Like a column supports the weight of a floor above it say. It back stops it, a very handy thing that'll inhibit off plane loading like say Nancy Lopez or Raymond Floyd.

Think of the Right Forearm as a support post at Top or End but then turning into an on plane extension of the clubshaft with all its added mass and leverage through impact!!

The #3 pp has two locations. One at the knuckle , on the top of the shaft , typically a swingers location for Loading as per 10-19-C Drag Loading. Here for the Right Forearm to act in a supporting role it must be in line with the loading of the Knuckle along the Top of the Shaft ie directly under the Top of the shaft at End. Vice versa for the Hitter who loads the First Joint in the Right Index Finger, the AFt of the Shaft and 10-19-A Drives Loads. Here the Right Forearm will be directly opposite or inline with the Loading of the Aft of the Shaft at Top.

So you can see that if you are in the process of loading one or the other Pressure Point you'd best have your elbow positioned accordingly during the Backstroke. The elbow position is not merely a result of stopping at Top or End, its a geometric alignment in support of the loading action, what ever it may be.

Given the same Plane Line for both procedures you have two different Right Elbow Positions. One inline with the Top of the Shaft , one inline with the Aft. Both having corresponding #3pp locations and ideally a "c" shaped index finger ala Hogan's right hand grip. You need your knuckle on the top , your first joint on the aft. Especially if you Drag then Drive.

In the Royal and Ancient Golf Clubs museum at St Andrews they have bronze casts of the grips of Open winners past .............every one of them had this alignment to their right index finger.

Hogan even aligned his knuckle and first joint in a similar fashion, when tee'n up a ball! Coincidence?

Its weird how when you learn about the alignments you start seeing them everywhere. Or maybe Im crazy.



http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/a...d=128157826 7


http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/a...d=128157826 7

Those are awesome pics . . .. that dude's hands just look like they belong on a golf club.

String
 

O.B. LEFT, Thanks for the picture of Hongan Grip.
Note the string embedded in the Grip. I tried to
get this done on my grips but many said that it could
not be done.I suggested to several grip manufactures, that
the string grip might be a good new item to offer. No interest. The picture seems to be made during waggle
rather than address or impact?

This makes no sense to me, are you saying you have two different baselines of the plane for hitting and swinging? In hitting you should be tracing a baseline that would be different than swinging for a square-square setup to hit a straight shot.

PP#3 and Two Locations
 

Thanks OBLeft. I now have a different understanding of what Yoda meant by PP3 rotating. Are there book references for including the first knuckle in PP3?

Daryl~could you repost or pm it to me? Thanks

No thats not exactly what Im saying. Again Hitters can use the Angle or the Arc of Approach.


A Hitter using the Arc of Approach would be using, Tracing the same Plane Line Base Line as a Swinger.

But a Hitter using the Angle Of Approach will construct a Plane which has a Base Line that passes through Impact and Low Point and therefor out to right field to varying degrees depending on ball position vis a vis low point. A straight line equivalent to the Arc of Approaches curved Delivery Line through the same two points, which he will Cover Visually. They both satisfy the ideal geometry for Impact , 2-C-0.

Sorry , its a real head scratcher I know, gmbtempe. Words fail horribly in the description of this concept.

Single Wrist Action promotes Loading the #3 PP against the Primary Lever and Standard Wrist Action (Swivel) promotes Loading the #3 PP against the Secondary Lever.

For Swingers, the Start-up Swivels 1/4 Turn Rotation is a simplified approach and promotes the #3 PP Load against the Secondary Lever for any Length Stroke going past Start-up. "Pressure Point #3 must have a Feel of being rotated a quarter turn at The Top with Standard Wrist Action" does not mean that the Rotation occurred at the "Top".

The difference between "Top" and "End" is related to Wrist Action. With 10-18-C, Single Wrist Action, moving from Top to End would re-align the Right Forearm (1/4 Turn) and therefore re-locate the Right Elbow (1/4 Turn) with the result that the Secondary Lever would Load against the #3 PP. So, we can Swivel at Start-up or Swivel merely by moving the Backstroke from "Top" to "End". Note that each of the three procedures in 10-18-C stop the Backstroke at "Top".

The Important difference between Loading the #3 PP against the Primary or Secondary Lever is the "Subsequent Right Arm Participation". 7-3

So, the "Top" for a Hitter is an Alignment rather than a Location.



You can't fake this stuff. One can artificially Load the #3 PP but the Alignments aren't present to determine the Motion of the Right Forearm Flying Wedge. Then there's EA. Without EA, it's like watching a girl throw a baseball (or O.B Left). Once the #3 PP is Loaded, you need EA to keep the Elbow aligned(Power Package) and guide it down the Proper Path.

Can the Swinger load the knuckle at End without a 10-2-A Grip Type or without cocking the Right Wrist?

The key is to load the #3 PP against the Secondary Lever without regard for Grip Type or Wrist Action. 10-2-B is the recommended Grip along with Standard Wrist Action.

If you cock the Right Wrist, then you may as well bend the Left Elbow. Cock the Left Wrist is synonymous with bending the Right Elbow.

I know it's against the TGM gospel, but I don't see how it is possible to produce a good snap release without cocking the left wrist in the down stroke.

I believe even Yoda cocks his right wrist in the down stroke.

To not cock the wrist in the down stroke requires a simultaneous sweep release as far as I can see.

It may not be difficult for everyone, but for me, it was a stroke of luck that I learned how not to Cock the Right Wrist during the Swing.

I was hitting hundreds and hundreds of chip shots per night for weeks, a bunch of winters ago. My trajectory control was not good. I tried swinging with only the right arm but my wrist was too flimsy. So, I used an Ace Bandage and wrapped my wrist (and the club) in the Bent Right Wrist condition. Problem solved.

I graduated to using the Ace Bandage with a Bent spoon to stiffen the Right Wrist even more. Eventually I bought a Gary Wiren "the key" for my Right Wrist. For the first time in my life I could feel the "Right Forearm Flying Wedge". Now, those words had meaning.

To make a long story short, I learned that my Right Wrist was Cocking because of the way I was Swinging. Restraining my Bent Right Wrist forced me to use the Right Forearm Take-Away and assemble the Wedges Immediately at Start-up. It also stopped my over-swinging at the Top of the Backstroke.

All of those learned Alignments (mechanics) have since turned into "feel". I still use it once a month to check myself and I consider it the best training tool I ever bought. Today, when I direct my #3 Pressure Point along the Plane Line or at the Inside Aft Quadrant of the Ball, then that's exactly where my Club Head is going.

Yes. But lets be sure we mean the same thing by "cocking" the Right Hand. Hammering as opposed to backward bending. Dont do it , there is no need and its off plane, in a Right Forearm Flying Wedge sense.

The knuckle in question is at the base of the right hands index finger and so it is more right hand grip type dependent than left. If you want to load the shaft along the Top of the shaft for Drag Loading during Longitudinal Acceleration and then later support the Aft during Radial Acceleration you'll need two pp#3 locations aligned accordingly. If you only wish to Drive period then you could make do without the knuckle aligned to the Top of the shaft since you wont bend the shaft along that axis anyways. Best to stop at Top for that one Homer reasoned.

Here's another way to think about this crucial alignment of the right index finger and knuckle..... Think of the butt end of the grip as being divided along two axis, north south and east west. The knuckle is ideally aligned to the former the first joint to the latter. But, if you're attempting to Swing and Drag Load and your knuckle is not aligned to the Top of the shaft and then you Load that knuckle............you are not loading, not bending the shaft along the correct axis for the Swingers Drag Loading 10-19-C Startdown.

There's a lot of "ham fisted" right hand grips out there that have the knuckle on the aft of the shaft........The butt end axis that you Load is the one you will Release , action/reaction. If you load the aft you'll release it .........which'll be Radial Acceleration as opposed to the Top of the Shaft Longitudinal Acceleration. Meaning the Clubshaft, the Palm of the Left Wrist will come off the Inclined Plane early, non Sequenced Release , 2 and 3 at the same time......Hitter style. A death move for a Swinger often. Early Release at best.

It may feel like an Over the Top move to the afflicted but it cant be fixed until the shaft is loaded correctly. And the best way to insure this is to correctly align your right index in a "c" shape like fashion to the handle. Knuckle on the Top , First Joint on the Aft. Get your Right Hand , specifically your Right Index Finger and its two Lag Pressure Points aligned in accordance with your desired Loading Action and then put your Brain in your Hands and load it, then nurse it, all by Feel. . You'll remember Homer defined his mission as "Getting the correct information into the HANDS of the golfing public".

I personally have a habit of getting a little strong in the right Hand and then loading the knuckle which has slid to about 1;30 on the clock ........off plane loading being the result. My clubshaft wagging inside a little even, my left hand getting a little bowed or too flat at Top. Its a false feel Loading. Everything feels right but it isnt because my Lag Pressure Point Alignment is off. I can hit some weak cuts with those alignments.......if I try to fix it with the Delivery Path or Swivel Im off down the wrong road heading to Compensationville. Two or three wrongs trying to make a straight shot. It can take weeks to get things back. But now , I just check my Alignments and make sure the things Im feeling are actually doing what they're supposed to be doing.

Its a beautiful machine that Homer uncovered...........I think he did a lot of looking at Hogan when it came to Drag Loading 10-19-C. In Lynn's GSEM class in 1982. Homer was talking about Drag Loading, Swinging from the Feet etc and said "Now Hogan........... the ideal....."

Daryl,

For all i know, keeping the right wrist uncocked may be the best way to generate power. But that requires a right shoulder that goes deep into impact. And I mean really deep. Because as soon as you release Accumulator #4 and let your hands move away from your right shoulder, you have to release Accumulator #2 as well. If you want to save your Acc #2 for last later you have to cock the right wrist in the down stroke.

Yoda's stroke is one of the best I've seen. But when I see still pictures of it just prior to Acc #2 release his right wrist is to a significant extent cocked. You can try to recreate the position he has in the photo session where he is sided with Ben Hogan and judge for yourself.

Chipping is different, although I wouldn't be surprised if a very sensitive analysis of a dual horizontal chip showed signs downstroke cocking of the right wrist.

The Right Shoulder goes deep. But it's going that way anyway. But it's the Golfers skill which either makes it travel down or across. It's best, IMHO to allow it to travel On-Plane, at least into Release. It's simple Zone 1 control.

Well, as long as we're on the subject, I think that Left Wrist Cocking and Uncocking is just to accommodate the Right Elbow Bending and straightening.

It's still Accumulator #2 and actuated by CF. But, it's Allowed by Right Arm Straightening, which is the Product of the Left Arm being Blasted off the chest.

Consider that the Right Forearm Wedge doesn't change geometry (restrained) or, in place of your Left Arm simply grab your Left sleeve, and then the concept of the Cocked Left Wrist changes to one of Right Arm Straightening.

As far as #2 Accumulator being the "Velocity Accumulator", it's important to note that the Clubhead reaches it's maximum speed as soon as it's Released. It doesn't gain speed during Release resulting from the continuing Uncocking (although it will from Accumulator #3). This is consistent with Right Arm Straightening which also reaches it's maximum speed at the moment of Release and doesn't increase speed as it's travel distance increases (Passive Straightening).

Daryl,
I lost you here - can you elaborate?

I'll try, but I don't know if this works. I'm not talking about the "Overtaking Rate" which Accelerates the Clubhead through Impact. I'm very specifically referring to the #2 Accumulator and how it's speed is generated and determined.

During the Downstroke the Clubhead may be traveling at 50 mph. At Release it speeds up to 100 mph and stays at that speed until Impact. The more you can Delay Release, the faster the Clubhead will move to Reach it's Inline Condition. So, it's not the amount of Cocking and Uncocking that determines Clubhead speed gained by Accumulator #2, but rather it's reaction Time; the Shortness of it's Travel time.

More #3 Pressure increases Clubhead Mass, not Clubhead Speed.

I don't know, I could be misinterpreting the whole thing.

anecdotal evidence
 

I do not wish to take a position but I would like to contribute 2 pieces of anecdotal information:

1. 7-24 paragraph 5 starts- The term "Release" can well be considered a contining action including Impact and Follow-through ......

2. Published charts of kenetic sequencing (golf stroke) indicate increase in shaft velocity (degrees /sec.) until Impact.

The Bear

Ps. Is ther any electronic version of TGM which would make search, cut and pase easy?

CF doesn't generate club head speed. Only linear force generates speed.

During the release interval, the swing radius is increased. Without any linear power applied to the club, there will be some minor redistribution of velocity energy in the club (slightly more speed in the head and much less in the grip end), but basically the club speed will be the same and the angular speed will be reduced to account for the increased swing radius.

This reduction in angular speed has a slowdown effect on the pivot. But since there's a real golfer holding the club with a lot of moving mass and a deliberate intent to maximise swing speed ... the response to this slow down will be linear force. You feel the load increase and do your best to carry it all the way through the ball.

The release works as a gear shift where the pivot is enabled to work the club in 2-3-4-5th gear instead of 1st gear all the way through.

Aiming the Lag Pressure
 

7-3. STROKES--BASIC........The “Angle of Approach” position of the Right Forearm shows the precise Cross-Line direction the Forearm must take through Impact. It, thereby, precisely locates the visual Impact Point--where the eye must be directing the Pressure Point #3.….

First knuckle or first joint?

Yoda refers to the forefinger in "Angle of Attack--Approach Drawings" thread and in a Neeman lessons video. He also comments that Neeman is a Swinger.

First Knuckle.

The First Knuckle is the "Turning Point" (Center Point, Leading Point) of the Right Forearm Flying Wedge.

A Beam of Light down the Right Forearm, through the First Knuckle will Shine on the Plane-Line. A Beam of Light from the First Knuckle through the Sweet-spot of the Club Head will Shine on the Plane-Line.

Both Beams of Light need to be shining On-Plane at least through the Impact Interval to have a 3 dimensional Impact.

(I think that's correct). :confused1

The right index finger has two joints and one knuckle. The Angle of Approach is a cross line deal with a Closed Plane Line for Hitters to Cover visually with their clubhead, cross line. Cover in Steering like fashion.

The #3 pp at this point in the swing is .....the first joint. For the Three Barrel Hitter the lag pressure point will always be the first joint, for the Four Barrel Hitter who Drag Loads in Startdown ........he'll sense Lag at the Knuckle during Longitudinal acceleration and then at the first joint during Radial Acceleration.

I didn't know any of that. Whoa, that seems way deep for me.

Does that include Swingers? Is it Optional?

6-C-2-0. CLUBHEAD LAG……..can be any one or any combination of Pressure Points selected to sense Clubhead Acceleration rate and direction……
6-C-2-A. THE ESSENSE of Clubhead Lag technique is that it is always both Aiming AND Thrust. Passive--it is primarily Aiming the Lag Pressure.
10-11-0-3 PRESSURE POINT #3 can be either active or passive Accumulator #1 indirect drive of the Secondary Lever Assembly. That is, active as Accumulator #2………for Hitting but passively as Accumulator #3 or with a Right Arm Swing

Is Pressure Point #3 the Knuckle or the first joint of the Index Finger? Maybe it's about best results?

That's cause I just made it all up. Even I don't understand it.

Swingers drag load, longitudinal , knuckle then radial first joint.......first joint in a passive way.

But here's something I've been noodling.....a swinger loads against the knuckle loads the left wrist, the hitter the first joint the elbow right? We tend to think in terms of Top vs End, quarter turns or whatever but what about half shots?

Surely the Hitter senses lag against loads against the first joint and swinger against the knuckle for these little shots?

If you've seen the amazing hogan in mexico video where in the later shots he's hitting these little drag loading half wedge shots that'd make you drool with envy........ He's loading the knuckle. So as Homer said it's really all a product of the direction of loading! So I'm thinking if your a drag loader per 10-19-C throw it against the knuckle......I think thats what Homer thought Hogan did and it does look like it to my eye.

Hmm? Made it up? I wish I would of thought of it. It's such a simple adjustment.

I've done some experimenting with the First Joint of the Forefinger vs. the Knuckle. I haven't found a problem with it. Actually, I like it. It seems more "finesse", more precise and needing very passive hands. It creates an urge to drag the Club.

The Loading Force is still toward the Knuckle but with the shaft resting on the fatty part of the finger which is now between the knuckle and shaft.

I'll keep working on it.

I was standing at the cash register at Yodas preferred breakfast spot near the swamp.....can't remember it's name , a country kitchen that does a great job.... I asked him where EXACTLY was the #3 and he grabbed a straw and placed it right in he crease of the first joint ! I had always thought it was the pad between the joints. I was wrong.

Cracker barrel?

I have the feeling I've been wrong too. I think that this is an issue that needs some clarification.

I have read (or implied) the same interpretation of PP#3 as OB Left presented. So my only surprise here is that he now claims that he has invented it:golf:

O.B. Left claims to have made the other stuff up. O.B. Left gave YODA credit for inventing it.

#3 "feel"
 

Pardon the interruption. This (#3 pp ) is something I work on a lot.
I totally agree with EVERYTHING that O.B.Left said. With one personal caveat. I place #3 in the joint but I feel #3 in the pad above the joint (or under the first joint when dragging before release).
For me, there are 2 parts to #3 pp, position and “feel”
I think the position element has been communicated well and to me it is EXACTLY as OB LEFT and YODA communicated it.
The “feel” element has been described so broadly, maybe because it is called “Pressure point” which implies club moving force.
To my feel, #3 pp, is like your eyes are for drive a car. It is the ONLY thing that is sensitive enough to precisely locate the chub head/shaft/”sweet spot” (I put quotes around sweet spot-but that is another topic).
When you are driving you can take your eyes off the road briefly. The more and the longer you do that the less accurate you drive the car/mc Etc.
I can remove #3 from contact with the club at any point and replace at will. Nothing lost if the off time is short and not at a “critical" location /transition. Because, FOR ME, A hitting motion is #1 driving the HANDS “down plane” and swinging is #4 dragging my WRISTS through the ball.

The Bear

Yoda comments from Chapter 8--Delivery Path--Neeman videos

"the number 3 pressure point--meaty part of right forefinger"

"your right arm continues to drive or in this case centrifugal force continues to drive--you are swinging--....continue…..make that motion"

Pressure Points--Swinging
 

6-C-1. PRESSURE POINTS The Force to be applied for the movement of the Lever Assemblies--both ways--is exerted against the Club through Pressure Points…

Addressing Force (Thrust?), what describes or distinguishes the role of pressure points #2 and #3 when Swinging.

You can use the "meaty" part above the first joint as the #3pp BUT where is your Knuckle if that meaty part is on the Aft? It'd be OK for Drive Loaders who dont need the knuckle ....but for Drag Loaders .......they havent aligned their Knuckle to their full advantage........any advantage.

Interesting Im not questioning this comment , but I can assure you I have discussed this very specifically with Yoda....... and he said ....crease not pad on the aft. Just like this guy.

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/a...d=128245310 8

Hah, Bernt you bastdrd........you "invented" more established facts than I ever did....

How are you mate?