Pivot - couple of very interesting studies
 

I had a couple of very good reads yesterday. They were basically related to the pivot. A lot of what I read is complimentary to 7-12 Pivot. AFAIK Homer is on the money when he talks about the pivot (what a surprise :liar: ). But there's more to say about it than you find in the yellow book.

First out is Allison Thietje & Co. Very fundamental, very basic, very clear and also very practical. This is low hanging fruit for teaching pros. She and her colleges have developed a few anatomical fundamentals for correct movement patterns in the golf stroke. It relates to damage prevension but those who need them will likely strike the ball much better too. Go here and pick from the menu About Us-> Motion Memory Golf Live Seminar. The first 2-3 chapters of the seminar is absolutely worth the time.

Equally interesting, but with a different approach and a very entertaining style of writing is Kelvin Miyahira. He is a speed trainer and very much into golf and tennis. In his recent monthly column he makes case for the not so pretty pivots that we can see on the tour. There's a lot of food for thought in several of his monthly columns and his Tiger analysis is a great read for anyone that doesn't go by the name Hank Haney:laughing9
You can find Kelvin's columns here.

Thanks Bernt for posting these.

I was in Phonenix couple months ago and took two lessions from Greg Smith. He looked at my swing and suggested trying right forearm takeaway. All I did was to pull to the top and let go from there and change was dramatic to the better. That and some other things Greg gave me to work on helped a lot.

Once I saw Allison's presentation, I knew why that RFT worked so well - I was pulling myself around, not trying to push (I really had a dysfunctional pivot).

I've now also worked on pulling myself around on downswing as well and things keep getting better.

I found also this Kelvin's column very interesting

All Golf Instruction follows one of two major Schools of Theory. Actions Based or Alignment Based.

Alison is hot :golfcart: :eyes:

As far as I have seen, the usual distinction seem to be between action / alignment on one side and position on the other.

Anyway, there are a lot of alignment cues in the material that Kelvin produces. He has very clear ideas about how to align the spine, the right shoulder blade etc to get the action you're capable of.

I was meaning to imply page 61. I did a really poor job of it. Sorry for the previous misleading post.

Two major schools of theory: (TGM accounts for both)

1. Pivot Controlled Hands
2. Hands Controlled Pivot

I am still struggling to understand what this distinction REALLY means.

Pivot controlled hands are often associated with geometry above physics, or perhaps precision above "blind" power. Which I totally buy into.

Then the hands are sometimes ascribed the role as the principal monitors - something that also makes a lot of sense.

You can monitor your hands when you need to, and they will give you a lot of info. But you can also use your hands to monitor the club head and the club face. But I believe you use your eyes as well. And for a full stroke your mind - not your hands - will monitor a lot of separate motions throughout the body that adds upp to a full stroke. And balance, timing and rhythm. Some of it will be in the concious and some of it will be small brain motoric subconcious stuff.

There is also such a thing as eye - hand coordination in golf. I can adjust the swing on the fly and hit the ball even if it moves between address and impact. I think that sort of monitoring and corrective actions are an important part of good ball striking. But while the hands may play first violin in the orchestra, the conductor sits between the ears.

But can the pivot literally be controlled by the hands? I don't think so. I believe the control center sits between the two ears. Can the pivot ruin the hands' chance of moving the club properly? Absolutely.

Then of course there are some people who associates this hands vs pivot control to stroke patterns: Forearm pickup is hands controlled while shoulder turn start is pivot controled. But then control is confuced with execution. And who wants to hit the ball strictly with the hands anyway?

I think it is safe to say that most golfers with a few years of experience - who have unlocked the most basic "mysteries" of the game - know what they want the club to do and also know what their hands need to do to accomplish that. I sometimes forget to use my feet properly. I can sense it in my hands, but I have to think of the feet before I am able to do something about it. If the hands could run the show I should only have to think about the hands to make it happen. But it isn't so.

Also - when I play well - there is no such reductionistic approach in place as hands or pivot or shoulder turn or whatever. It's just the club, the ball, what I want to do and a very holistic image and anticipation of the motion required to make the stroke. No hands. No pivot. Just a stroke.

PS: I totally agree that educated hands are vital - and that uneducated hands can nullify everything. But I don't regard educated hands as sufficient in this regard.

There are a lot of 5-15 handicappers I know who have played for many years, who know how to produce a decent score but who doesn't have anything like a good stroke. I think these typoe of golfers show how far most people can get with educated hands and without a good stroke pattern.

I’m going to try to explain, in the simplest and surest way I can, the difference between “Pivot Controlled Hands” and “Hands Controlled Pivot”. Sorry, in advance, for the long (and vapid) post.

Golfers that Shift Planes use “Pivot Controlled Hands” (but there are exceptions to every rule) and Golfers that don’t shift Planes use “Hands Controlled Pivot”.

Golfers that Shift Planes, will Release at the same Place in the Pivot; at or around the Plane Shift, when the Right Elbow gets onto the Elbow Plane and the Right Forearm changes direction from downward (from the top of the swing) to Forward (this is one example but common). This induces the Throw-out of CF as the change of direction of the Right Forearm moves the Left Arm away from the Chest.

There exists only one Release Point for Plane Shifters.

Because Release Point depends on the Pivot, the Golfers ball striking skills depend on “Timing” his Pivot, Arms, Hands and ball location to coordinate the Clubhead being at the Right Place at the Right Time for the desired shot anytime the Right Forearm moves off-plane during the Backstroke and re-planes during the Downstroke. For these Golfers, any change in Pivot Mechanics, Stance and/or Ball Position actually changes the relationship of the Release Point to the Ball, which changes Impact and thus affects Ball Flight.

It is important to note that that the Players Hand Path and Deliver Lines are not in Alignment at Release. This forces the Golfer to "Flip" the Clubhead onto the Delivery Path in order to strike the Ball. Golfers "Compensate" by using "shorter" strokes or by Hugging the Chest with the Upper Arms.

You can experiment with this by using the "Hogan" drill. Keeping the upper arms close to the chest, swing back and forth as smoothly as possible. As the Stroke becomes longer and the Right Elbow moves away from the chest, you'll begin to notice a "Flip" (kink) during the Downstroke at Release ( the kink is the Hands going on one path and the clubhead going on another). You'll soon learn that as long as you shorten your Backstroke, and keep the Right Elbow as close to the Body as possible, you can avoid the disruption (the cause is unknown to them) that causes the Flip.

Hogan, Byron and Garcia, are excellent examples of how to avoid the "Flip". They re-plane the Club at Startdown to the Elbow Plane (they lower the Clubhead/shaft) before the Pivot is used to deliver the Power Package.

Now, a lot of Golfers have discovered this link between the Release and Flip and most of them adopt keeping the upper arms as close as possible to the Chest. The "Fix" or compensation, they soon discover, introduces another problem which now needs another compensation. They have truncated the "down-stroke acceleration sequence" and must find some way of generating more pivot force to gain Clubhead speed (Bio-mechanics). They soon discover that the greater force they generate with the Pivot, the Closer the Upper Arms must be to the Chest until they finally realize that it's better to keep the Arms glued to the Chest and learn (find a way) to be able to force the Hips to turning faster.

Pivot Controlled Hands (the above) is all fine except it doesn’t Always provide the opportunity for a Three Dimensional Impact and without that, you lose considerable control of Ball Flight on longer shots especially when the right elbow moves away from the right hip during a longer backstroke. (this paragraph needs a lot of cleanup)

If you choose not to Shift Planes at least during the Downstroke, and trace the Plane Line, you can choose your Release Point from early to late, Sweep to Snap, etc., and Always have a Three Dimensional Impact. The Release Point is not dependent on the Pivot. This is "Hands Controlled Pivot". The Hands, through the #3 PP, maintained the Right Forearm Flying Wedge, and the Clubshaft has remained on the Plane of the Right Wrist Bend with the Right Forearm. So, the Delivery Path (hands) and Delivery Line (Clubshaft-Clubhead-Plane-line) remain undisturbed. No Flip Release, no kink in your swing at the bottom during release.


So, a "Pivot Controlled Hands" players ball striking rests with his ability to "Time" the Pivot to provide his one and only Release Point enough space and time to Flip the Clubhead back onto Plane for Impact (or learn to compensate). The Pivot is controlling the Release Point Vs. you controlling the Release Point. The Pivot Controls the work the Hands must perform (re-planing the clubshaft), Vs. the Hands Controlling the work the Pivot performs so not to disturb the delivery path and line.

Capice?


Below is a quote from the Book. You need to put this together with 10-24-F.


*** Bold out by Daryl...This is true when the Downswing Plane does not shift. With the Right forearm tracing the lines and the Clubshaft and #3 PP on the same plane. No flip, no kink, just "Back of Ball".

The following quote speaks directly to the problem with "Hands Controlled Pivot". The following quote refers to a small flashlight attached to the #3 PP (not the forearm itself) with a Level and Bent (and for swingers include a turned) Right Wrist.

Bold by Daryl.

If your intention is to Trace a Straight Line Base Line, your Pivot will comply and you will be Hands to Pivot. Like bending over to pick something up, your brain sends your hand to the object, the body complies perfectly, without any thought to it. No need for conscious adjustments to waist bend, shoulder to hands alignment etc. We are well suited to this sort of movement we do it all day long. Take your pressure points to Top and then Trace or Thrust them at the Aiming Point on the way down. Thats about all there is to it.

The plane of the Shoulders and the plane of motion of the Hands do not need to be aligned. There is no mechanical reason for it. No benefit to be had. We dont reach for things in that manner outside of golf why do it when golfing? The body, the pivot , the shoulders go their way , the hands and arms go another. With the shoulders and arms united as single unit a conscious turn of the shoulders , Pivot to Hands will take the Hands back in the direction that the Shoulders are travelling............always under plane. Although some schools of thought then try to align the plane of the shoulders more closely to the inclined plane on the backswing. But why bother? Its a very awkward compensation.

That said, getting the Hands on the Inclined Plane defined by the Turned Right Shoulder ( the Turned Shoulder Plane) prior to Startdown does serve a purpose. Given the 6-M-1 Downstroke Sequence it will allow a move of the Right Shoulder to take the Hands Down the Inclined Plane in Startdown. To initiate Startdown with an independent movement of the Hands or Arms would break the Pivot Train. A movement of the Right Shoulder with the Hands aligned to a higher plane would take the Hands out over the Inclined Plane. But its still Hands to Pivot if, as in the Startdown Waggle exercise, the turn of the Pivot pulls the butt of the club towards the plane line, base line. The brain is still in the Hands. Most likely felt as a strong sense of the #2 pp being pulled longitudinally and the #3 pp being loaded.

Hmm? :confused1

Im in total agreement with all that. My first paragraph concerned the backstroke. The difference lies in the notion of the Right Shoulder being on Plane in Startdown as opposed to a notion of the Plane of the Shoulders being aligned to the Inclined Plane. The first one is genius, the second .............awkward. Im all for a Standard Shoulder Turn and a Turned Shoulder Plane. Flat back and then On Plane going down.

The Plane of the Shoulders and the Plane of Motion of the Hands do not need to be aligned. My apologies to Jim Hardy although I think the One Planers align the Plane of the Shoulders to the Plane of the Left ARm and Homer didnt have either of those components on his Inclined Plane. For a Standard Shoulder Turn , in Startup, the Right Shoulder will turn IN on a flat path and the Right Arm will fan BACK, IN and bend UP. They dont move in the same direction. Their vectors are divergent. The on plane force is resultant but under direction of the Brain through its outpost in the Hands, the Pressure Points. Just like hitting a tennis ball. You dont align your pivot to the ball, you align your hand path (or the racquet heads extension of it) to the balls path. The pivot still contributes greatly but its the Hand path that is aligned. Hands to Pivot is obvious in all applications except for golf for some reason. The legacy of the one piece takeaway , or a misconception of it maybe?

Shoulder turn takeaway takes the Hands in the direction the Shoulders are traveling........always under plane..........although some people try to align the Shoulders Plane to the Inclined Plane to correct the Hand Path.........which is unnecessary. Just Trace with your brain in your #3 and let 'em go in their own direction, going back anyways. See the McDonald drills. In Startdown its a different story assuming the TSP. There the Right Shoulder and the Hands meet up on the Inclined Plane at Top and travel down plane together in Startdown under the power of the Right Shoulder. But still under the direction of the Brain via the Hands.

Basically if your Tracing you're Hands to Pivot. See the glossaries definition of the Pivot.

Who says that you can't do both simultaneously? That's what I'm doing when I play my best golf. Feels like starting the back swing with feet and arms basically.

Daryl,

Thanks for a very thorough and very advanced reply. I'm not sure if I understand all of what you say.

My problem with single plane is that I am no good at it. And one of the issues I have is that I loose the sense of right hand control in the down stroke.

Being a plane shifter I don't see my own ball striking in you description. I use the hands a lot - for distance & trajectory control. The pivot for sure doesn't control nor command what the hands do. And the hands aren't able control the pivot either. Right hand lag pressure is key to distance control on less than full shots.

I find it much easier to achieve a stable pressure point balance and a steady clubhead through the ball on the elbow plane than any other plane.

Of course, all of this may be due to personal style & preferences.

Yes , exactly do both as opposed to merely a shoulder turn takeaway. Hands to Pivot does not mean that the Pivot does not start things going in Startup. The pivot can provide the initial move away, but given an intention to Trace it will become Hands to Pivot. I too feel like my best golf sees my pivot getting things started in Startup. The first few inches or whatever. My right hip turns back accompanied by a lagging takeaway, then my right forearm fans and picks up. All the time Im Tracing.

Again, if your Tracing you're good. Hands to Pivot.

Sometimes I'm tracing. At other times I'm struggling....

Hi OB. Did you just say that...
 

I can educate my hands to travel the correct path to the ball if I can take ppt #3 to the ball, effectively?


Patrick

The quick answer is yes. That would be Hands to Pivot.



The long answer....... Homer said that the "Hands are not educated until they control the pivot".

He also defined the Pivot as "A multiple universal-joint assembly between the the Stationary Head and the Startionalry Feet holding the Clubshaft "On Plane" by positioning and adjusting the Lever Assembly, through the #3 Accumulator , as directed by the Right Forearm".

He also said that the #3pp was at the top of the Longitudinal Center of Gravity the Sweetspot Plane, which is what CF is really swinging On Plane as opposed to the clubshaft. Meaning that the feeling at the #3pp is the feeling of the Sweetspot.

So to direct the #3pp is to direct the Sweetspot , so to speak. And if your pivot complies in a manner that promotes this Tracing or Thrusting at the Aiming Point, which ever you prefer...........then the answer to your question is....yes. And you are therefor Hands to Pivot.

Again I say, if you are Tracing , or if you prefer Thrusting at the Aiming Point, you are Hands to Pivot. Pivot to Hands is the Pivot throwing the Hands off plane. If they are on plane...........you dont have a problem. Homer said "A Shoulder Turn Takeaway is always under plane". If you are on plane , despite your Shoulders contribution to the backstroke powering .......you are good, Hands to Pivot. Something that can only be accomplished if the Pivot and the Arms , Zones 1 and 2 travel in different directions. The Shoulder Turn Takeaway Homer refers to is one where the Shoulders and Arms are locked together and travel as a single unit. United by tension at the Arm to Shoulder connection or via Pressure Point blackout, ignorance.

Daryl, I've apologized once for the "vapid" remark! I am contrite! I am not worthy of the ramblings of a learned instructior! I am a worm. I have family in Illinois. Next time I go I will write you and buy you a beer or lemonade or, a package of gum or something so you can be refreshed as you meander in explaining very helpful golf insights. Perhaps, I could buy you a two pack of TITLEISTS! : )

Patrick

BerntR! How are you? How is your golf game?

Thanks for asking, Innercityteacher.

The game is gradually recovering. Scores are going down. The short game is back. But the ball striking isn't really back yet. I have a few holes on every round where I completely lose it from tee to green. I am still struggling with bad habits from when I tried to start with the right forearm on plane. (And probably some bad habits that are even older:eyes:) When it happens I completely lose the pressure point balance that enables me to pull & push and trap the ball. With the driver then, the club comes inside-out with open club face. The swing feels OK but the ball ends up on someone's roof - if let the pivot go all in. I discovered the other day that I am arching with my left wrist on the top when this happens. That is something I can deliberately avoid if I think about it. But then we're talking hand manipulation. When I have the alignments right I can just swing back and strike through and the ball gets trapped without any manipulation whatsoever. When I'm out in the back yard and just sweep through the grass I get regularly reminders that I still have have it.

The swing clicks in from time to time when I play too. A couple of rounds ago it clicked in on the back nine when I tried to hit a low percentage shot with a hybryd 200 yards away from the pin, with a small but steep hill right in front of the ball. Unfortunately I didn't get the launch high enough to carry the hill so it went into overspin modus and went half the distance. But I knew I had it then, I proceeded to hit the ball to 2 feet from 100 yards, saved the par and went on to basically hit every green for the last 5-6 holes. I could go out and play in the 70s tomorrow but I don't think it will happen for quite some time yet.

My experiences with plane shift is almost entirely the opposite of what Daryl has written so either he is wrong or I am rather untypical. I need to keep the shaft on a rather flat angle to get stability and a max lag pressure through impact. The steeper the shaft angle becomes at impact the closer I get to a flip release, the less lag pressure I am able to apply through impact and the less predictable the result gets.

I am not 100% certain whether I am really plane shifting or merely keeping the club shaft on a flatter plane throughout. As OB Left has pointed out, the swing plane doesn't have to be the shaft plane. The stroke looks like a shift down to the elbow plane, but it feels like being on the plane at all times. It could be that I'm using a Hank Haney type of parallell planes, with the club head on plane all the time. The whole stroke feels pretty much like a dual horizontal motion with an accumulator 3 motion that is very flat, so to speak. Anyway, this shallow shaft plane gets me as far away from flip territory as I can get. It works pretty well in the short game too.

From OB Left;
I'm bringing this back to life as I had an interesting experience today.

Out on the course. Struggling because I am still mixing patterns. I eventually found a swing that had power. And kept it for the remaining holes. Last two holes were driver - sand wedge on a 420 yard par 4 - and then 3 wood + 5 wood on a 480 yard par 5. Both holes were in benign wind conditions, but this was good ball striking by my standard. And the 5 wood was climbing towards the moon before it dropped dead on the green. With a Pinnacle ball. In down wind. What a shot :-)

I was using something that must have been very close to turned sholder plane. More hip tilt than I usually do. Facing straight at the ball. ( I usualy face above the ball)

And adjusting my stance to pretty normal square address position.

The power center of the swing was higher up in my pivot than usual. It felt like ii turned the club around a point almost as high as the shoulders. Whereas normally, the power center is around the belly button and I stand erect to the ball.

Back home I was able to reproduce this stroke pattern and the one that is my regular patter. (Amazing how much easier it is to do these things away from the course.)

I noted another significant difference: The pattern I use today has both arms straigth a little past impact. The pattern I usually use have both arms straight when the arms are horizontal into the follow through. Quite a lot more pivot and hands speed through the ball. Not more swing speed but a lot more thrust. And a greater sense of stability and connectedness through impact.

I have to address the ball wit an open stance to do my normal pattern. And I have to start the back swing from the feet to get the club on plane. This must be because I start from an address position where my pivot is extensively rotated. It is geometrically open (seen from above) but physically it is still closed.

Reflection upon the differences, it seems to basically be a timing difference. In the stock TGM swing, you start with a forarm pickup, and by hip height or so, the pivot and arms move in unison. That's a place where everyting is very well connected. And that's the place where i address my ball, so to speak. I've just turned everything through to a point where everything is connected. And I have moved the ball much closer to the release.

There's just no running out of anything until way past the ball. Running out of right arm is a no isse, since it basically is turning together with the pivot. Today I was aiming my pp#1 and #3 out towards the ball. The stock TGM way of doing it. Usually I aim them straight through the ball on the target line.

It is perhaps needless to say, but I'll say it anyway. What goes up tends to come down again. If you start with arms only in the back swing it will basically be arms at impact. But if you start with an address position that requires engagement from the feet, and with pivot and arms together, so will your motion be through impact.

I call that my semi-Jim Harvey one plane.
 

I lean to the ball a bit more. I fix my wedges at sternum center and feel very connected and powerful. I hit a very long, consistent draw. Using that I have shot as low as 5 over on a 9 hole par 36.

I'm not sure why I stopped. Oh yeah, there is just too many good ideas on this website to try! It is a little like a Minneeesoda smorgasboard when you know you'll be snowed-in for three days

I'm sort of infatuated, lately, with the idea of whipping my left hand vertical hinge down, out, forward, up and in.

Thanks for giving me something else to puzzle over, Bernt, I'll keep you posted.

Patrick

Good players tend to find something that works for them and stick to it.

I guess most of us who frequent this forum is too interested in the golf stroke for our own good. At least as far as scoring is concerned. We just have to try something different just in case it's better.

It makes the game more interesting though :laughing9

The semi-Jim Hardy swing.
 

Hi Bernt. I gave my sternum aligned flying wedges a try tonight. Very simple and powerful. Mid-body, level hands turning to an angle hinge and back. Mindless. Dependable. Horizontal hinge with a little closed club-face.

I am a real sicko, Bernt! I might use that swing when I'm 89 and I want to hustle a 50 year old! :sleepy:

And then, I started non-automatically beating the hell out of the ball with my vertical hinge. I started a new thread. Come by sometime, I'll buy you a beer or two.

:occasion:


Patrick