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4 Barrel Hitting
I am sure some of you know who this dude is...I played with him a couple of days back. Says he is a 4-Barrel Hitter...what do you think?
4 Barrel Hitter |
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 Typical Professional Elbow Plane Swinger:
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Perhaps you would like to elaborate on your comments? |
The person in the video is John Erickson, aka 'Lagpressure' on some other message boards. He used to be under the tutelage of Ben Doyle. Former Australian and Canadian Tour player as well as a former All-American in college. He says he drive loads with the right arm so I wouldn't label him a 'swinger.' 4-barrel...I have no idea how exactly you would tell that. But it is a superb motion. I would love to see him become a member of this forum so he can give his thoughts and experiences on TGM.
3JACK |
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The Downward and Reverse Bend in the Clubshaft is not an optical illusion and not a simple matter of that D-2 Swingweight. When he Uncocked his Right Wrist, it threw the Clubhead Down-Plane. The Clubhead is no longer Lagging regardless of the distance it trails. Lag-pressure and Accumulator Pressure are lost. He Straightens the Right Elbow during the Downswing which forces the Club to release early, in-lieu of using Power Package Structure and an Arm Acceleration Sequence. He has no choice and cannot bring a Stressed Clubshaft into Impact. Throw-Away. You cannot Out-Run CF no matter how much effort. The Right Arm Throw is a Trigger. Substituting the Right Arm Throw for the Hand Throw does not make you a Hitter. He must swing using these (his) procedures because of the Elbow Plane. His Right Elbow has so much Bend at the Top, that unless he begins straightening the Right Elbow from the Top, he'll be hopelessly above Plane at Release. Don’t confuse straightening the Right Elbow during the Downswing with Hitting. Hitting is Driving the Clubshaft by Straightening the Right Elbow during Release and Impact from a Punch Elbow position. This is Typical of Professional Golfers. I'm not dissing him. There is only ONE WAY to bring a Stressed Clubshaft into Impact. Quote:
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To reword a little phrase from Mr. Harvey Penick:
If you love G.O.L.F. you are my friend. LagPressure might not agree 100% with what we are learning here, but without question, he lives and loves G.O.L.F. Mr. Erickson has tested his love for G.O.L.F. competitively on many tours around the world, against some of the greatest players in the game, and lives his life trying to pass along what he has learned. For pure TGM, I love it here. YODA and many others on this board are those who I aspire to be like, but there are others like Lag that deserve our respect as well. I have learned a LOT from Lag's posts on iSeek, and appreciate his contributions very much. I believe Lag and YODA would become fast friends and I would welcome Lag's contributions here as well. Go Brian Gay! Kevin |
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  He does hit from pitch! One thing about these photos, is that because his persimmon heads are very heavy, there is more toe dip or downward shaft bend.. he is very late in firing #3, so it gives a bit of a side view and can appear to be a loss of shaft flex, when in fact it is not.. I grabbed this sequence and just before impact you can see that flex is held... because the shaft has been rotated into impact and is not a delayed side view from a late hit.. This guy never hits balls, plays only once a week and I watched him hit 16 postage stamp greens, missed only one fairway, and did all that in a stiff wind - with ancient clubs... He hit only one ball before we made our way to the course...and the reason for that was to see what his tendency for the day was. |
John ACTIVELY thrusts at the ball. It's scary how hard too. Those old persimmons scream at impact. We got together post Cuscowilla in San Fran and enjoyed a round at Mare Island with the old gear.
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I'm not criticizing his Golf or his passion for TGM and the game. However, he's not a Hitter no matter how much Right Arm Muscle you think he uses before, during or after Impact.
He's not Radially Driving or Accelerating the Primary Lever. If you want to use Right Arm Muscle to Accelerate the Secondary Lever, then by all means, do so. He loads the Clubshaft at the Top. He does not Load the Primary Lever. He may think he Pushes with his Right Arm, but it's a Pull. Like a Horse in a harness pulling a cart. Is the Horse Pushing or Pulling? Driving or Dragging? It may feel like pushing the Clubshaft (Straightening his Right Elbow) and Pulling the Clubshaft simultaneously during the Downstroke. That does not make him a Hitter or a 4 Barrel Hitter. It's all about Elbow Location. Everything he does is all about the Clubshaft. He's a Swinger. |
Interesting and fascinating at the same time.
Here you have two guys who have played with LP, who are in accordance that he kt is a hitter. And then one who, what I understand, has not played with LP, who states the opposite. We all know that it is push or pull. Only the player can tell. Even Mr. Kelley said that. What does LP say he does? btw. Brother Comdpa! Long time no hear. How are you? Need to catch up. |
Why Why Tell Me Why...
Erickson told me that the best way to train the hands is to actively fire the hands from pitch because pitch increases the angle of the right forearm and the shaft at the parallel before impact ( He calls this the P3 4:30 line) therefore increasing the range of motion for the hands to travel, but it takes a lot of work to train the hands to fire that fast actively.
He said the advantage of this is that you can increase the rotation of the 3rd accumulator,and you gain the advantage of drive loading into impact, therefore actively taking control of impact with the hands, not relying on a dead hand CF hand throw release into a full roll horizontal hinge. He also said that by going this route, you can steepen the angle of attack from a more true low point ball position which puts all the geometry on your side. He told me the secret of golf is to hold shaft flex into impact because a pre stressed shaft will resist the forces of impact better than an unstressed one, and that pre stress also puts more feel in the hands of the player. It was hard to argue after watching him pure the ball around the golf course with a set of Hogan Bounce Soles from the 1960's. |
Erickson on Hogan
John told me that he believes Hogan did exactly what he said in Five Lessons. Wishing he had 3 right hands is exactly correct, and that when he learned this secret of actively hitting with the hands from "pitch" he was able to gain all the benefits of doing so. It sure looks to me this is what is happening.
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Hi Justin, thanks for posting the swing - I hope John doesn't mind us chatting about it.
Whilst I am not quite as "by the book" as Daryl it does appear that John has picked many components which are more compatible with swinging. It seems that he has found a variation which is rarely discussed in TGM and to some extent contrary to convention...quite a rare beast... In my profession (medicine) when patients come thinking that they have the most rare and bizarre disease...one usually finds that they have an unusual presentation of a more common disease rather than their preferred interpretation (ie. a typical variation of an extremely rare disease)! I therefore naturally wonder whether John has an unusual right arm sensation whilst doing a typical "swing".....rather than an rare and unconventional version of "hit". Does he state that he loads the shaft at "end" using drag loading and the uses active triceps thrust (his hitting/drive load) from a pitch position to add or sustain shaft bend through impact?? What hinge action does his motion naturally produce? horizontal or angled? His feeling of triceps thrust from pitch - how does that differ from the extensor action that one can feel when you "swing" - could he just be using LOADS of extensor action - hence feeling like active thrust? If he uses massive pivot thrust..wounldn't he have to use an equally large amount of extensor action to maintain structure....so much extensor action that it could be misinterpreted as a hit?? Just asking questions - not being a hater.:salut: |
John uses a Sequenced Release on the Elbow Plane from a Pitched Elbow Location.
From Top to End he Rolls his Right Wrist (Cocks) and so he uses a Clockwise Turn to Return the Shaft to Plane during his initial Startdown (Like Hogan and many other great Golfers). The 4:30 Shaft Position at P3-Release results from the Cocked Right Wrist. But my point, to be exact, is that he is not Hitting. He is Pulling the Clubshaft Lengthwise. He may use Right Triceps Muscle, etc. It may feel like a Push. I'm not dissing this guy. I'm not looking for an argument. But he lacks a Structured Power Package and its Downstroke Acceleration Sequence. So he uses his Right Arm to Accelerate the Clubshaft but CF still Accelerates the Clubhead. |
I believe John is a hitter, every sensation he describes is a hit and he is very knowledgeable as it relates to the golfing machine. And no one should question whether or not he compresses the ball.
What is interesting to me is the difference in his motion and the hitting motion of our's truly Mr. Ted Fort. Significant differences in their motions. Ted sets up at impact fix with a bent right wrist, maintains the structure and takes it to the top and then drives the bent right wrist down and smashes the ball. Mr. Ericson, aka lagpressure on the other hand has a standard setup, hinges his right wrist and actively turns and unhinges through and past impact. He also takes his backswing to finish. Now let me ask this, If I actively bend the right wrist on the backswing and unbend it on the downswing, however, it is still slightly bent and the hands are in front of the clubhead at impact, is that not still hitting? Did I not obtain the objective of a bent right wrist at impact driven by the right side, just with a more dynamic movement as opposed to a static one? Both Ted and John are using their right side, just different styles and both are incredibly effective. Great topic... |
Batter Up
Has anyone considered the "classic" right arm swing?
http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/index.p...85&video_id=21 |
Ax Handle Approach
Perhaps we need to relook what an ax handle procedure entails...
Any lumberjacks in the house? |
Loads of thrust going on here. Float then thrash. What makes it all interesting is the want to rip it up plane post impact to avoid any chance of slowing down and to keep the shaft as loaded as possible. I discussed the EA thoughts with John and its not something he actively uses.
Right arm swinging is drag loading. Once his right elbow closes into his side the he actively throws the Flying Wedge through impact. He talks of throwing the hands but means driving the right forearm and bent right wrist through impact. Again from first hand discussions. It is different look than most patterns thats for sure. |
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But the rest of the components shout swinger from the rooftops... If John is exerting active pp1 thrust - such that he is overcoming CF release...that would assume an angled hinge...fade flight...why would he need to "check his tendancy" for the day before embarking on his round...the straight plane line ain't going to shift overnight ;) ...the only thing that might change is his ability to "time" a muscular thrust...so most days it is CF and horizontal hinge...maybe somedays he does time his right triceps rocket and gets angled hinge... Maybe...getting out of my depth - whatever he is "doing" it certainly seems to allow him to play really solid golf with classic equipment ...no where to hide a sloppy swing in his bag! |
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Let me ask you a question. If you Cock the Right Wrist during the Backswing and then Uncock the Right Wrist through the Impact Interval, would you call that a Radial Thrust? The common problem with Pivot Controlled Hand Swingers is that they Always Release Early. So, they must find a way to continue Thrusting; even to the Finish. Upon finding a solution; Nirvana. Look no further than VJ Singh. It's a losing Battle because you can't beat CF to the Ball. The Harder you try, the Harder it becomes. That's why we need a Power Package. But that's another Topic. Another issue is the #3 Accumulator Roll. There are two ways to Roll the Clubface. One is by Rolling your Forearm and Wrist to Spin the Shaft Counterclockwise along its longitudinal center of gravity. The other way is to Roll the Right Forearm Flying Wedge. 'Lagpressure' employees the First of the two options. Proof of this procedure is that 'Lagpressure' can spin the Shaft and Roll the Clubface with Zero #3 Accumulator Angle. You need a Rigid Power Package to perform the Second Procedure. If this is true, then he doesn't truly have Transfer Power. |
JE was a trained swinger, almost pure CF. Turned to hitting as the oily CF was a daily feel thing.
Strong EA can feel like hitting into the impact zone as #3 gets loaded. But an active thrusting #1 (watched him hitting one armed, balls and impact bags so he could show me what he was powering it all with - throwing the kitchen sink at the impact zone) is what it is. His uncocking motion comes from the straightening right elbow as opposed to CF. Bringing with it the AH. Now just to confuse the issue, ask him to swing and he can - sweetly. Putting....mini hit. Chip...mini hit Pitch...mini hit. |
Daryl, you are much more knowledgeable on this topic than I, so please bare with me here.
So if I cock and turn on the backswing, undo the cock and turn on the downswing(which I agree is a swingers action). However, am using the right arm to do this,by driving on on #3 pressure point it would still be a considered a swingers action, even though it is powered by the right side. Would this be defined as right arm swinging/ or just switting? When watching John's motion, and from what he's describing, I think he's thrusting with his right hand and arm and doing his best to push the handle in front of the club, In fact he talks about how hard he uses pressure point 3. However, I agree the cocking and roll, as well as the sequenced release wrist throw are more in line with a swingers action. I also agree that if you unbend the right wrist coming into impact there is some throwaway, but as long as the right wrist is still bent at impact and pressure is still being applied, it may not necessarily be a bad thing. As I believe John has some slow motion pictures of him maintaining lag well past impact. |
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Consider this Never Talked About concept in TGM. All Left Wrist Uncocking, with Swingers and Hitters is caused by or allowed by the straightening of the Right Elbow because of the Mandatory Bent and Level Right Wrist from Start-up to Both Arms Straight. The difference is not Thrust but the Direction of Thrust. Swingers can allow the Right Elbow to passively Straighten and thus "feel" the Left Wrist Uncock or they may Thrust On-Line and "not feel" the Left Wrist Uncock. Both are CF procedures. Hitters Thrust Cross-Line and must Actively Straighten the Right Elbow. |
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The only purpose of Standard Wrist Action during the Backswing is to automatically align the Right Elbow in a Pitch position so that the Right Forearm leads the Clubshaft into Release (Directly Opposed to the Secondary Lever at the Top). For Hitters, Single Wrist Action Automatically Aligns the Right Elbow behind the Clubshaft at Release (Directly Opposed to the Primary Lever at the Top). Both are Left Arm Strokes unless the Right Elbow Replaces the Left Shoulder as the Center of the Swing Radius. Only If the Right Elbow Stops moving Simultaneously Down-out-and-Forward On-Plane will you run into Right Arm Swinging. |
looks like to me a swinger that actively thrust #3 by feeling it with his right hand. I call it swinging.
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Why is this a requirement? :confused1 Any swing center can be in motion and in most cases, the left shoulder is continually in motion around the pivot center. |
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Red by Daryl. Bold and Italics by HK. Quote:
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6-M-1
Great quote Daryl! My biggest problem with Mr. Erickson's teaching is that he releases the accumulators 1-2-3-4. Pretty big sausage hanging there for a Homer Kelley fanatic, as I am striving to be... I can overlook some things, bringing my own swing thoughts back to the book, but I enjoy Lag's philosophy on playing the game, and really enjoy his enthusiasm. Sometimes it's tough to find good, positive people to talk G.O.L.F. with outside LBG and our friends at iSeek. When trying to understand the book, Lynn Blake Golf is the place to be! Kevin |
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I think that along the Swinging/Hitting continuum there is a somewhat muddy middle ground. A place inhabited by confused hackers but also by G.O.L.F. ers, superlative swingers for instance who can thrust #1 just fractions before they reach the bottom of the endless belt. Lynn when Hitting still looks very Swinger like to my eye despite his obvious thrusting right arm throw although perhaps a little more punch than than pitch elbow like your friend. I have some high speed photos somewhere. Ob |
Skinning a Cat
He says he drives - I believe him. Others say he drives, I believe them too. What bothers me is the elbow location.
That pitch elbow combined with right arm "thrust" just screams Right Arm Swing to me. Textbook in my humble opinion regardless of what the other Right Arm Swing camp espouses. A 4 barrel Hit has a swingers start down, but quickly turns into a right arm drive from behind the clubshaft. Pitch elbow is a pull with either the left side pivot and/or right arm sidearm pitch. Hit vs Swing tipoff can be right elbow position at the release point. A pitch elbow is always a Swing and rarely if ever a Hit due to the nature of the "pulling vs. driving" physics. He has a late release of the power package as it gets pulled into the release point (he says with the right arm), then a bunch of right arm "thrust" (more pulling) ensues. Classic Right Arm Swing. Don't confuse the term "thrust and drive" as it is used as a "feel" statement by the player. If the right forearm is still fanning once the right elbow becomes the swing center, then it is pulling not driving. But hey - the dude might be Hitting with a dual wrist action and a pitch elbow with a sequenced release. Good deal! :) |
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I'm such a jerk, but I can't help it. :laughing9 You forgot the Newly Discovered Fifth Accumulator and he does admit to using #4 at Startdown and Impact. So, the corrected order of Release is: 4 - 1 - 2&3 - 4 - 5 :) ((((((Actually, to become an Accumulator, you first need an out-of-line condition to Accumulate and Release. But don't say anything and maybe nobody will notice))))))) :laughing9 He is fun to read and has a refreshing perspective on all things Golf. I read everything he writes. And,,, he has had a sobering influence on those British Criminals Down-Under. :laughing9 Don't be angry GolfGuru, it's all said in fun. |
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I don't know a ton about Mac's teaching, but it seems to me Lag has discovered some of the same things as Mac. I don't think I'm smart enough to ever learn enough about Homer Kelley to move on from G.O.L.F. The yellow book is my chosen rest-of-my-life long study, but guys like Erickson are a huge help to my learning just in the fact that they support TGM so enthusiastically! Kevin |
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Lagpressure fully admits and teaches to use Both Wrists Like Motors Uncocking Forcibly. :crybaby: And, he admits to redefining TGM Hitting Procedure to suit his own method and interpretation. Additionally he states: Quote:
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Please allow me to clear the uncertainty about Mac and John. At ground zero, place a Professional Golfer. 100,000 miles away, place a TGM Golfer. Then, accelerate them to the speed of light toward each other so that the collision will fuse them together. Then you'll have a Mac and John student. :laughing9 Warm Regards, Daryl |
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Kevin |
The Horse Speaketh...
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John sent me this e mail this morning..
"I think the thing that is confusing for many of the TGM guys is the position of the right elbow.. it's because of all the bag work that I have done training my hands to fire hard from pitch, so that I can fully embrace the hit impulse. By bending the right arm more "pitch" it increases the range of motion for my hands to travel, and because I have trained them to out race the clubhead.. I actively fire #2 and #3 in unison.. but because I do it from pitch, it looks confusing to TGM guys because they are used to seeing passive hand swingers from there.. This is the secret of the P3 4:30 line I teach, because this way, I still get the full range of motion of the 3rd accumulator, not the trapping "less rotation" action that is typically seen with hitters using punch. The bottom line is that to do what I do.. you really need to train the hands and forearms with a lot of bag work.. then it all makes sense.. including Hogan's three right hands. By doing it this way, we get the best of both worlds.. the steeper angle of attack of the swinger, so we can be great long iron players, but also the nudge toward holding shaft flex longer than a typical dead hand swinger.. all the while avoiding the arms flying off the body into the post impact parallel plane protocol that Homer talks about in chapter #2.. or what I call moving into an equal angular post impact spiral. The clubshaft stays on a true plane post impact, with an angled hinge, and actually attempts to limit right arm straightening as the upper right arm stays packed on the body. This is why I call this pivot driven hitting. 2-M-3, "Unless pivot thrust actually drives #4 through impact" well all I have to say about that is... there is no "UNLESS". My golf swing is all about pivot thrust through impact, not just guidance, support and delivery of the power package. Let's not forget Homer's words... "The pivot IS the master accumulator" let us not forget such a noble truth." Attachment 1871 |
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If John wants to redefine a few terms and invent a couple of others, it's ok so long as we all understand the meaning of the Terms. John has found a Pattern that he thinks is very effective and holds up under pressure. He certainly has the credentials to know. He should want and embrace critical review and I'm sure that he does. It's unfortunate that he got me first because I'm about middle of the road on TGM knowledge/Application. More knowledgeable members of this Forum must be sleeping. :laughing9 But I might be a little more sensitive to these kinds issues because I believe that TGM is a System/Method. Everyone else and John consider TGM only a set of Concepts, Theories, and Components to manipulate into personal custom Patterns, whereas I actually believe in 12-2-0 (6th Edition) and that a Flat Left Wrist is a Flat-Left-Wrist. But lets be clear that John is teaching a Pattern and that he uses some freedom in redefining TGM terminology to put a name to it. 4 Barrel Hitting. |
Everyone teaches patterns. Some single ones. Others multiple ones around a players basic pattern. JE has his and describes it in non TGM lingo. What he does and how he does it are based on the concepts just fine. #5 is a concept too that encompasses F.Swivel in an unusual way.
You can keep looking at the photos all you like though until you stand and "do" with him you will never "feel" the drive thrust in it. He sits within our paradigm. |
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I truly like what he says about Zone 1. The Pivot should keep moving and move far. I disagree that everything he does and says resides within the Conceptual bounds of TGM. His theory is Anti-Power Package and Anti-Arm Acceleration Sequence. Additionally, the P3-4:30 position, which means that when the Clubshaft is Parallel to the Ground during the Downswing, but that the Butt End of the Club points to a 4:30 Position (inside Aft Quadrant of the Ball) on the Ball, is off Plane. When the Clubshaft is Parallel to the Ground it should also be Parallel to the Base-Line of the Inclined Plane. I don't disagree with him, but I don't think that his method should be called TGM. In Fact, he better be at the 4:30 position with the Clubshaft because his hands are so far from the Ball at Release, he needs the extra Time for his Hands to stay ahead of the Clubhead at Impact. The following Quote from the 6th Edition, Requires that the Golfer use a Turned Shoulder Plane and Hands Controlled Pivot. Otherwise one cannot get the Hands to the Line-of-Site-to-the-Ball before Release. (TGM is a Method) JE has a Picture Perfect Pitched Elbow Location but it's forced. A Turned Shoulder Plane would Locate it Automatically. Quote:
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Amateuuur!
You (Daryl) stinking middle of the road TGM knowledge level amateuuuurs!:laughing9 This is kind of like the brown bag (engulfed in flames) that Bucket left at my doorstep...I ain't going near it! I do not get the 5th Acc. business, cuz I have a specific definition as to what an accumulator is. As Daryl says it is not an out of line condition...poetic license and TGM is like a cocktail...a molotov cocktail! Still, if you know what you are doing you can do it again.
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