Address Posture
 

I searched the 6th Edition and the word P-o-s-t-u-r-e doesn't exist. More or less I was looking for Hip Motion, Knee Bend and Weight Shift. While viewing the Address Posture of Pro's, I kind-of abstracted the one below. In contrast to the Posture named "Fred", the Pro's look a little forward leaning.

I typically tend toward "Fred". Which do you prefer?

Not convinced that your tour pro stick guy could wiggle raise his toes...weight looks too forward?

These five professionals provide a new composite. I've been wondering how posture is related (if) to a golfers overall method of increasing clubhead speed and/or power. Balance? Or could posture be related to their Start-up Take-away?

How Many On-Plane Right Forearms Do you See?
How Many Golf Clubs are on an Elbow Plane At Address?

Mr. Kelley seemed to have a bit of a different view of the Elbow Plane in the earlier editions. I think it's in the 3rd that he says the Elbow Plane has an advantage because the club is moving at 90 degrees to the axis of rotation.

Some of this waist bend stuff has to do with the shot at hand. Also, not sure that it's good to have the image of the spine as a "rod" stick straight . . .. cuz it ain't. However I think there is an advantage to considering an axis of rotation that the spine, hips, knees and shoulder comply with. For the head to stay steady the hips and spine have to do some bending and unbending.

Also . . . from an optics stand point . . . chin down . . . not up.

Posture Affects Plane
 

Check out these B&A photos.

Attachment 1784 Attachment 1789
Before         &n bsp;       &nbs p; After

Attachment 1788 Attachment 1790
Before         &n bsp;       &nbs p; After

:golfcart2:

Isnt that Katie Skeeles? The world famous, most improved golfer of 2008 at the ACC? Love her new alignments. Who does she work with?

Katie Dust
 

Right you are, O.B. Playing less than two years, her goal this year was to make her high school golf team.

She did, and a bit more.

For the season . . .

She was undefeated.

:salut:

[quote=Daryl;64527]These five professionals provide a new composite. I've been wondering how posture is related (if) to a golfers overall method of increasing clubhead speed and/or power. Balance? Or could posture be related to their Start-up Take-away?

How Many On-Plane Right Forearms Do you See?
How Many Golf Clubs are on an Elbow Plane At Address?
[/QUOTE









OK look at these very very good golfers in their address postures..........which one has to move their HEAD the most to get their right forearm and clubshaft on the same plane? This is a Zone 1 problem.

[quote=O.B.Left;64537]OK . . . I'm not sure that I'm ready to say that the head has to move to get the right forearm on plane here . . . could be . . . but do you think moving from Fix to Standard Address requires the head to Bob? I may be wrong about this but I'd be willing to bet a handful of Mike O's toenails that these cats get the Right Forearm On-Plane.

I'm clueless.

More upright posture promotes a flatter Swing Plane?

Hank Haney would LOVE the before pic . . . . bet her eyeballs were tired after around with the chin up that much . . . Nice work! That big bobbin' dip that Eldrick does may be so he can see the dang ball.

This is the girl compared to Fred. very close. different than the tour pro's.

[quote=12 piece bucket;64538]
You think that Byron's head would have moved as much is he was not elbow plane through impact ??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI3w9...eature=related

Both these guys like right elbow bend too!

Ok. Could someone please tell me what moving the head and elbow plane is about? Are you saying that the Head must Lower?

[quote=12 piece bucket;64538]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1eTeKZmwsw&NR=1

This guy don't bob much and he chooses a very different address position to the pros above...much less stiff/upright...head down..foveas looking good etc ;)

No attempt (or at least unsuccessful) to get right forearm on the same plane at impact as address...but right forearm very much on plane at impact.

Some of my thoughts / interpretations put up for bashing around...

Bobbers ...have a sense of right forearm on plane and get their pivots to do whatever they have to do to get it there....as they all start off from an adjusted address which has not had the benefit of a "impact fix" education...they bob...

Mac (my take on his stuff - I know you dabbled in his dark arts too - so see if we agree :)) has an adjusted address which has been educated by the impact fix concept... his adjusted address sets head height and neck flexion and spine angle but he does not worry too much about wedges at adjusted address because he sets them early in a manner similar to Joe Dante and Joe Norwood....hmm were Norwood and Dante ever seen in the same room at the same time...;)

Are there two options for people that use an adjusted address which is not impact address??

Address shaft alignment = impact shaft angle but body dips to get the off plane address right forearm on plane for impact and...

Address shaft alignment lower than impact shaft alignment but the body alignments are same for adj.address and impact...right foream comes on plane for impact as right shoulder lowers and shaft leans forward.

Bash away...:laughing9

You think they doing it for fun??:laughing9 ...I am sure of nothing except...

It is a consistent feature of players with upright postures at adjusted address who are skillful enough to get the right forearm on plane at impact with lag etc...

If you start from an impact address then it doesn't arise IMO... but luckily I know how low i hold that opinion so nobody needs to get too upset if they think I am spouting "pigt" on this one...

Warning:- For over 18s with a sense of humour who are not offended by the english language and have been frustrated by predictive text messaging on mobile phones ;) :-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hcoT6yxFoU

I have become totally enamored with the right forearm on plane at set up. Now I'm trying to figure out why so many argue against it? What are the down sides?

It has helped me TREMENDOUSLY, and is something I never even thought about until studying Brian Gay's swing on Yoda's video.

We have a member at my club who is a multiple winner on the LPGA, and has played in several Solheim Cups. She is known as an excellent ball striker who is a bit weak in the putting department. I was watching her hit balls yesterday, guess where she sets her right forearm?

Not only does she set it right on plane EVERY TIME, but she was doing a slow motion drill that looked a lot like right forearm tracing. I didn't say anything or ask any questions as I don't want to say anything that would freak her out if she's fragile. Her teacher is Sam Carmichael from Indiana University. Does anyone know if he is TGM based?

Kevin

Not sure what fragile looks like in your part of the world Kev...but she sounds like she can handle a question or two !!:laughing9 :salut:

Sergio sets it up on plane when at preliminary address too..then adjusts himself to start swing with the shaft below forearm...but he sets the club every time on plane in preliminary address.

I still feel that you set the head and body angles with it on plane...then do whatever...arrange your wedges somehow and then thwumppp....

[quote=golfbulldog;64548]Byron's head moves down because of the patented dippy knees . . . Hogan also had his head move down in the backstroke to. Certainly you want to have a "steady" head . . . but if you think about it this way if the hips go forward you head is likely to go down some . . . if you bend a stick the top of it goes down. I'm sure we can find plenty of examples of heads that don't go down . . . regardless . . . these two gentlemen flat planed the golf club . . . thru the ball the clubs don't deviate much . . . Hello 3 Functions . . . Meet Mr. Hogan and Mr. Nelson.

[quote=golfbulldog;64550]There ain't nothing wrong with setting your Right Forearm On-Plane at Address. Particularly useful with Hitting . . . but I think Mr. Kelley would be less dogmatic about it with Swinging. Now the question to answer is WHY do most cats on tour NOT set their forearm On-Plane? Probably because the don't know anything about the alignment . . .and the may think it looks "different". But that being said most of the great ball strikers DO have the Right Forearm on-plane with the shaft at Impact? Why? I would submit that its because even though they may or may not have a centered pivot . . . they get the Right Shoulder location deal . . . PLUS I think Physics plays a role . . . these guys are swinging the club at speeds that physics are going to produce some of the alignments that we like to see because . . . . well . .. that's the way it works. The forces are so great that they just line everything up when the motion is efficient. I'm mean look at Furyk . . . he's got some MAJOR whacky stuff going on but when he gets down there where the bidness is to be done within certain constraints he's not a whole lot different than some of the other more "conventional" looking swings. Again it comes down to the 3 Functions and controlling the face . . . Furyk is GREAT at that. So for the club to work like it should on plane through the ball . . . the plane is gonna produce some of the alignments because that's how laws of nature make it work.

[quote=12 piece bucket;64564]Thanks Bucket, more GREAT stuff!

Kevin

[quote=KevCarter;64565]Agreed - I like the bit about it being more important in Hitters... I think that the book at times forces the samenesses between hit and swing and doesn't go far enough to describe some of the differences...where things are less absolute in practice...there was talk of 2 books - no?? one for hit and one for swing??

I think that physics has to play a big role in the way that pros have learnt/require right forearm on plane - for anyone who has evolved through a competitive sport and tries to apply force with the right arm...they are gonna learn that the forearm works better on plane...why they haven't learnt about impact fix...not sure...unless there may be a power benefit in the massive dip/compression that their pivots do...which in the context of guys who practise daily...pays off more than ease of precision...who knows...

[quote=golfbulldog;64580]Hey Bulldog,

I've been a club pro for 30 years, and until taking up with TGM in the last couple of years, I didn't even know we were ALLOWED to USE the right arm in the golf swing, let alone set the right forearm on plane! :eyes: :crybaby: :naughty:

Kevin

Somehow I missed all of these great posts.

What if it isnt just a Sameness deal? Im thinking Swingers benefit from the on plane right forearm too. Luke posted something on this today. If it was just dead weight Swingers could just use one arm, their left.

Bucket, I like your lever extension stuff but does it have to dispense with the Machine Concepts? Is there an advantage to the Bob?

Bulldog, I like your notes about the implications to the Pivot Center for those who dont preview impact in Fix.

Daryl, I'd suggest there is a reason Eldrick bobs and it has to do with how far he has to drop his right shoulder to get his Right Forearm on plane with a bent right elbow at Impact. Axis tilt alone isnt going to do it given where he starts. Im seeing on plane right forearms in baseball, tennis, hockey, its just a structural fact or law. I bet none of those guys know anything about it, but they do it.

Kev, ask her if you know her well enough.

Of course Swingers benefit from an On-plane right forearm. It's a must unless you play 4 hours a day and practice the rest of them.

Swingers need both arms too. Accumulators. Left Hand, Right Hand, Left Arm, Right Arm. Pressure Points, Power Package, etc.

I don't question that Tiger lowers his head. He drops his entire body. But he isn't human. When a bad round means that you finished in the Top 10 in the World, I back off wondering what he does wrong and try to focus on what he does right.

That Tiger move is a. power deal b. he can't see the freakin' ball the way that doofus has him setting up with his face all up.

Hey, are you following me around?

I don't think that he listens to his new teacher. The guy coudn't fix Charles Barkley. How hard could it be? I had it figured out in five minutes. No Wedges, No on-plane forearm, etc. No Pivot, etc, and after how many weeks he still sucks. The Blind leading the Blind.

Did you see those drills with a thousand balls lined up on tees. How STUPID is that. I don't have any other word for it. Sorry.

Ya know whats even more scary? Tiger can't help him either. What does that tell ya.

Add no steady center to his radius too.

If only he'd walked and whacked those lined up balls Wild Bill Melhourne style. You cant bob too much when doing that drill. I love the dang thing.

You're right O.B. That would communicate the idea to him and it would force him to make some corrections. But not a thousand of them. Just enough to teach him the motion and feel.

Agreed. Hank worked him too hard. Maybe tried to break him of his bad habits by exhausting him. Poor guy, its more than a golf problem maybe.

I think it's a golf problem. I think that he's gotten so much bad advise, he doesn't know what to do (he's taught positions, not alignments). We've seen worse than him get better. Unfortunately, Hank thinks that if someone does something a thousand times, he'll learn something new and teach himself the Golf Swing. Barkley is not Ben Hogan and even Ben had the advice of 100 other Pro's. Hitting a thousand balls isn't practice.

One of the Problems with Golf Instruction is that Teachers have about a dozen tricks up their sleeve. If one teachers tricks don't work, then find another teacher with another set of tricks.

personnaly, he worked so much on the full swing, i wonder if he would've started and the baby stage, putting and chipping, then work on pitch, maybe there would be no whacky spasm stuff once pitch was done with...

who knows, what do i know!

Yes. I think that you are 100% correct. Baby stage. Basic, Aquired then Full Stroke. The Basic motion is a part of the Full Stroke, so break it down and teach in sections.

Swing Interrupt
 

CB has the full-swing yips. As one who has encountered a similar problem in the simple putt, I understand (as few do).

At LynnBlakeGolf, we teach MOTION. Motion learned MECHANICALLY; aligned GEOMETRICALLY; and performed (ultimately) SUBCONSCIOUSLY. [For the record, these lines are copyrighted.]

I watched only a handful of minutes of the CB / TGC experience. Knowing the pain being experienced, I could not watch any more. I know I could help -- in ways left unexplored -- but that opportunity did not come my way.

The Yips are a terrible thing.

And their origin must be understood before they can be overcome.

:salut:

Why can't I find anyone who sets up on the turned shoulder plane
per 10-6-b #1???? The benefits would be a shiftless swing.

Human Beings After All
 

Photo 10-6-B #1 requires a "steeper-than-normal Elbow Plane" (7-23 / 6th edition) with a "reaching out of the arms" and a Left Hand Grip in the cup of the hand (instead of the normal under-the-heel of the hand). Or, an Uncocked (versus Level) Left Wrist. All of which borders on the "ungolf-like" (3-F-6).

All this can work well for the short shots and their steeper Planes. But, for the longer Strokes, a more normal On-Elbow-Plane Right Forearm at Address and the natural progression to the Turned Shoulder Plane in the Backstroke (Single Shift / 10-7-B) is more natural.

Stand in a Plane Board set to a Turned Shoulder Plane, and you will instantly understand.

:salut:

Yes I have stood in the plane board and although it does feel somewhat awkward one could certainly get used to it. I wonder if the turned shoulder plane has more to do with clubs. Most would need more upright lie angles for the TSP. Are most club lie angles desinged for the elbow plane??

Clubs can accommodate any Plane Angle Between the Elbow and the Upper Limits of the Turned Shoulder. IMHO, they have been more suitably designed for the Turned Shoulder Plane Angles.

Keep in Mind that the Turned Shoulder Plane Angle varies per Club. The Elbow Plane does not. Overall the Plane Angles vary by only a few inches but it's the Alignments that are critical.

Therefore, your Driver Plane Angle will LOOK closer to an Elbow Plane and your Lob Wedge to a Square Shoulder Plane. (Actually, not that radical)

The ONLY best and insured way of having a reasonable Set-Up Routine and use the Turned Shoulder Plane for each Club in the Bag, is by adopting the Right Forearm Take-away as your Start-up Procedure. This Procedure immediately and unfailingly establishes the Turned Shoulder Plane.

The Right Forearm Take-away adjusts for each Plane angle by using your-distance-from-the-Ball to establish the Plane Angle. Keep in Mind that The Right Wrist is Level at Address, which is an Alignment, which means that the Longer the Clubshaft, the farther out from your Body your hands are at address. And REMEMBER, the Right Wrist is Flat and Level at Standard Address. Which makes it childs play to have an On-Plane right forearm at address.

The On-Plane Right Forearm at Address is on the same Plane as the Clubshaft at address. This is not the Turned Shoulder Plane, however this alignment (distance from the ball with this Alignment) establishes and FORCES the "Magic of the Right Forearm" (with Extensor Action) to the Turned Shoulder's precise Plane Angle to use when tracing the Base Line of the Inclined Plane.

So, as your near the end of the Start-up Fanning procedure, each Club in your Bag will MEASURE a slightly different distance above ground when your Club first reaches parallel to the ground and parallel to the Plane-Line at the end of your Start-up. Shorter Clubs align Parallel to the ground and Parallel to the Base Line of the Inclined Plane Lower to the Ground. AND, it is this precise Alignment that establishes the CORRECT degree of Right Wrist Bend for each different club. The Shorter the Clubshaft the more bend because the Right Elbow Location is closer to the Body (below the right shoulder) and thus the Right Forearm is more vertical. The Driver has a WIDER Fan than a Wedge. The Longer the Club, the more left Wrist Bend at the Top of the Swing because there is less Right Wrist Bend. Learn this or else swing every club with the same degree of right wrist bend; clubshaft lean.

A 20 foot long Golf Club is not beyond the limit of a Turned Shoulder Plane, however it will look lower than the Elbow Plane and its Fan is three feet wide. Remember that the Right Shoulder (After a Flat Backstroke Shoulder Turn)is a Reference point for the Plane Angle but it does not define the plane.

Using any other Procedure introduces too many obstacles that all can't be overcome. Too many to go into detail in this post. It's futile to Start a Swing with the Left Arm on the same Plane as the Right Forearm. Unless YOUR NAME IS MOE.

This system need to be learned from someone very knowledgeable with a trained eye. If you were that knowledgeable, you could do quite well with benches, string, mirrors and video.

Thanks Daryl - you are a fountain of information!

Lady in "Red"?

BTW, side track a bit...what did Momoko Ueda do with the right forearm here:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stTqbnCEQgI&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AebKT...eature=related