On Forces active in the Golf Swing....
 

How can golfers ever expect to get better if they don't understand root cause and are being misled by those who claim to understand .... but don't?

Muscle contractions cause forces on the levers of the human body. These forces, being unreacted, result in movement in accordance with Newtons F=MA where A is acceleration or first derivative of velocity. Changing velocity is acceleration and when there is a mass involved creates a force (or vice-versa). When there is no apposing force as in the golf swing we get MOVEMENT.

In dynamics, forces do not always come in pairs... Statics (no motion yes)... Dynamics (motion) NO. For example: there is no force apposing the thrust (FORCE) of a jet or rocket engine. Mass is expelled at velocity causing MOTION... F = (dM/dt * V) = MA.

Only pseudoscientists confuse internal loads with external loads aka the forces that cause movement.

Our bodies having mass are constantly subjected to a force (gravity)... What's the opposite of gravity? Anti-gravity? Only on Star Trek people. Without gravity our muscles atrophy and our bones leach calcium (which BTW creates a problem for long term space travel). Gravity causes a beneficial INTERNAL load (but its not called anti-gravity) on our bones and Muscles... BUT GRAVITY DOESN'T (necessarily) MAKE US MOVE! Get it? On to Golf.

In order for any object to move on a curvilinear path, it must be subjected to an acceleration. There is a name for that acceleration that causes a change in direction: centripetal. When that object on a curvilinear path has mass, a force is involved: CENTRIPETAL FORCE. Only uneducated individuals refer to the internals loads imposed on a structure by centripetal force as CENTRIFUGAL FORCES.....

Educated individuals know that the CENTRIFUGAL force is an imaginary one (a fudge factor) that is only used when non-inertial coordinate systems are being analyzed. Any pseudo-golf scientist that tries to tell you that centrifugal force causes motion or is in any way involved in the golf swing ... is blowing smoke up your .... backside. It takes a lot of gaul for said psuedo-scientist to claim Cambridge University's physicists know not what they speak.... absolutely ludicrous when you think about it....

Centrifugal force is not operant in the golf swing. When you hear mention of centrifugal force with respect to the golf swing know that you're dealing with a posuer and move on. Humor him if his ego demands it but move on for there can be no reasoning with the ignorant.

So if any teacher mentions CF . . . he's out?

When can I book a lesson with you?

YEP --- Sure indicator of a snake oil salesman (and they abound)

I doubt you need an instructor bucket. SPC yes... Everyone needs SPC Instructor no. I'm guessing you've got decent mechanics already and an instructor (most instructors) will just try to cram you into his imperfect idea of perfection.

SPC = Statistical Process Control... Exactly where are you losing strokes... Putting? Short Game? Fairway misses? You see? SPC will tell you where your process needs refining. Gotta collect the data and be objective about it but... Once you know exactly where your weakness' are you will be able to do what Jack taught Jack (still the best ever): Fix yourself.

Anybody playing to a +1 and still looking for swing changes is looking to get worse... a lot worse... IMOP.

Cruel and Unusual Punishment
 

You're killin' me, no_mind. Please . . . use the cat-o-nine tails http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-...e/colonial.htm . . . not the old CF argument.

AAAAAAGGGGHHH!

:laughing9

And that cat-o-nine tails... its to keep the kinetic chain gang in-line right?

Sigh...

I see these funny little diagrams with an arrow labeled CF appearing to cause "release"... Uh.... No... :naughty: thats not the way... awe nevermind .... resistance is futile :eyes:

P.S. seems we lost Jeff... life goes on I suppose

Whaz Happ'nin?
 

That "funny little" CF force arrow is not random. It is precisely parallel to the left arm (2-K #1 and #3) or in line with it (2-K #2).

Out of curiosity, what is your explanation of the dynamic?

BTW, give it your best shot, because this is going to be an extremely short-lived interaction.

:)

You mean dynamics of the release? What causes it if not non-existent "CF"?

That explanation be here: http://nmgolfscience.tripod.com/release.htm

*Warning*

Requires a high school physics level of understanding... peruse at your leisure or don't... It does not matter to me and I won't be offended if you opt out. I'll be back in about a week .... business calls.

Regards...

SPC-CF=25 Handicap

Do You Feel Lucky?
 

:happy3: Oh, now I get it. :rolleyes: Thank God I bumbled through high school and Georgia Tech. That settled, and when you get back next week from "business" :laughing9 . . .

Let's play golf.

I'll take the equally deluded Ted Fort, Jeff Hull and 12 Piece Bucket -- :shock: -- against the best ball of you and any three of your referenced Cambridge physicists.

Eighteen holes at Atlanta CC: You guys take carts and play the gals' tees (any gal physicists must play from there, too :smile:).

We'll play the tips and carry our own bags.

The Rules are the Rules: Play by them -- including the ball 'as it lies', no 'gimmes' and count every stroke.

Loser pays all expenses, including green fees, meals, lodging and transportation.

Should be fun.

:salut:

P.S. For the rest of us: The sound you hear now is no mind scrambling for one or more "referenced physicists" with a scratch handicap, a penchant for the Ladies Tees and looking for a U.S. 'getaway'.

:happy3:

Sounds like a lot of fun
 

I would like to be there with a videocamera.

And there's a story right there for Mark Frost to write.

A book named "The science of Golf" published in Feb, 2009 not only mentioned CF but also with calculation...Dr John Wesson....who are you?

I hope Mandrin reads this one cause this post was aimed at him. Boom Boom
Mandarin/Orange

I'm beggin ya Danny
 

That match would be better than watching Ultimate Fighting. Please I'm beggin' ya to have it. I'll skip going to Augusta for that one............maybe not.

More Delusion
 

Yoda - You really need to pick three completely deluded CF (or whatever its called) swingers. Ted is disqualified, Jeff admits he probably pushes through impact, and Bucket uses 72 different patterns during a single round.

I suggest EdZ, MikeO, and Collin Neeman. :golf:

Yes that guy.... Just because a book gets published does not mean the author knows what he/shes talking about. At least in his physics of soccer book... Wesson doesn't know what he's talking about (with respect to the physics of release). In figure 2.3 of that book he's got one of those (wrong) imaginary arrows I refer above.

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/7340/wesson.gif

There is no force out there... CF or otherwise! The only force the lower leg (in this case) or golf club (in our case) experiences is the force applied at the at the knee or at the hands (disregarding the minor contribution due to gravity)!

Try thinking about it this way.... Forces are vector quantities, they have both direction and magnitude. If you draw an infinite line in the direction of the force and if that line does not happen to go through the center of gravity of that object then when that force is applied it will cause the object to not only translate but also rotate. Grab the periphery of almost any object and pull... does it rotate? Its inertia that causes the object to not only translate but also rotate when the "line of action" of the force does not go through the CG. In essence... THIS not CF is what causes release.

http://books.google.com/books?id=dGc... =0_0#PPA21,M1

Have at it I've got to catch a flight now...

PS LynnB we will see... on second thought no way... pissing matches are for school yards :)

The Great Pretenders
 

Actually, having been exposed in your opening post as "ignorant" and a "posuer" -- BTW, the correct spelling is poseur -- with regard to scientific principles, I proposed a golf match, not a "pissing" match. And not in a "school yard", but on a championship layout. Guess you weren't feeling lucky. :shifty:

The truth is, no_mind, that despite your condescending and incorrect labeling, we here at LBG have learned to make the golf ball behave. And, despite your counsel to our readers that they "humor" us and "move on", we have demonstrated our ability to help our students do the same.

:salut:

Just in from Cambridge
 

Just if your interested:

Where Vfict (r) is the potential responsible for the
centrifugal force: fc = −ω×(ω×r) = (ω2−ω ωT)r
.
Vfict (r) = −1
2 rT(ω2 − ω ωT)r
Now, Rs and RJ are parallel and MsRs+MJRJ =
0.
[Note that if a particle is moving then addi-
tional Coriolis forces act that are not mentioned
in @
@rVeff (r), so we can’t determine stability from
Veff .

Any questions?

If the pilot don't understand the physics of lift and drag . . . are you gonna get on the plane?

If Lynn don't first write a dissertation on fluid dynamics . . . . should he tie a knot in it and hope not to piss down his leg?

When all is said and done, who cares about what the physics of the golf swing are?

If my club head is moving at 100+ mph, but not on plane and aligned correctly at impact, what good were all the formulas when you have to look for ball in the next county?

Force Feed
 

Yes Rob, are you sure that your calculation 2 rT(ω2 − ω ωT)r should not be 1.8 rT(ω2 − ω ωT)r ? Just wondering.

That depends on the wind direction, but wait, I can't see the wind. Wind must be fictitious. The tide is in the coffee cup. That one still makes me scratch my head every morning........but I know its true. :confused1

A Tide In the Affairs of Men
 

Right you are, BBax . . . There is a tide in your coffee cup! Difficult to see, I'll admit. So, for the best observation points:

Low Tide -- Starbucks.

High Tide -- Dunkin' Donuts.

Somewhere in between -- Waffle House.

Each is best observed at its extreme during the Full Moon, ideally at the Bay of Funday in Nova Scotia, Canada. But, if you're on the equator . . . furgeddaboudit. Tides ain't hap'nin, either in the oceans or in coffee cups. http://home.hiwaay.net/~krcool/Astro/moon/moontides/

:laughing9

Often wondered what was going on with that Jack in the Box coffee.

A Few Facts About Lunar Tides
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The gravitational force of the moon is one ten-millionth that of earth, but when you combine other forces such as the earth's centrifugal force created by its spin, you get tides.

Time to get away?
 

Greg Anthony wrote a limited edition book back in the 1980’s that helped me understand how we use centrifugal force in the golf swing. The golf club moves in a curvilinear motion (part circular and part linear). We have come to know this as centrifugal force. Many of you are somewhat familiar with this concept. Whirling a rock on a string, the rock pulls away from the center. If the string breaks the rock would move at right angles to where the string broke, not in the direction of the string. Or when David killed Goliath…What has often been described as a “fictitious” force is actually a “tug of war” between Newton’s First Law of Motion and his Third Law of Motion.

Discounting the ever-present effects of gravity and friction, The Law of Inertia: There is no change in the motion of a body unless a resultant force is acting upon it. Specifically for this example, an object that has been set in motion will continue in motion and in a straight line until acted upon by another force.

If a second force acts upon the moving body at right angles to its path, it will be deflected from its rectilinear line, and its motion will become curvilinear. If a clubhead were set in motion in outer space it would continue in a straight line indefinitely. Once we attach a clubshaft to the clubhead and hold on to the opposite end of the shaft, the head would no longer move in a straight line because its forward motion would be constantly confined (deflected or constrained) by the clubshaft.

According to our friend Sir Newton (who IMO should receive and honorary degree in Golf Stroke Engineering from TGM) “the constant pull that constrains an object from its straight line path and compels it to move along a curve is called ‘centripetal force’ (centrum, center: petere, to seek).” The pull of centripetal force, as provided by the clubshaft, compels the clubhead to move in a curved path.

Sir Issac now enlightens us with his Third Law. For every FORCE there is an opposite and equal FORCE OF REACTION. Note, it does not say for every action…it says for every FORCE. In REACTION against this change in motion the object pulls outward on the shaft with a force called centrifugal REACTION.

When an object, not free to move is acted upon by an external force, it is pulled out of its natural shape, resulting in an elastic reaction in an attempt to resume its normal shape.

A force of REACTION is exerted by the reacting object, not on it. The resistance, that a moving body offers to deflection or constraint from a straight line, is commonly know as centrifugal force (Centrum, center: fugere, to flee from).

Mr. Kelley understood this when he wrote TGM. I have been using the term Centrifugal Force for years. If No-Mind wants to bash me for using it, fine. Just know that one of my students won three consecutive state open championships this past year using Centrifugal Force and countless other have improved their games with the same concept. I don't say that to impress you, but to impress upon you that the concepts presented by Mr. Kelley really work. In the end, that is all that matters.

BTW, Michael (Sligo33) if you want to talk about "tiding one over", I will remind you that you and I and Rob (BBAX) spent alot more time looking into our beers and vodka tonics than we ever did looking into our coffees.

We DO have hero's
 

That is why you are my hero:salut: o' Silver Surfer of the Truth!

Be ready for an egghead assault . . . .

Now, that there is funny... reminds me of the dookey toofus discussions which I kind of miss.

Ah yes . . . one that warms the soul.

You familiar with yatzee teef?

Prince of Tides
 

Hey . . . what about me?

Beer tide = low tide.

Vodka tide = high tide.

Su tide es mi tide!

:salut:

No, can't say I am....but I'm sure I'd like to hear about it....

"EnTIDElments"
 

Silver Surfer enjoys riding your wave especially at high tide.

LBG Legends Line-Up
 

I'll say: Here's a snapshot taken October 25, 2008, from our LBG Homecoming Classic at Cuscowilla.

From L-R:

Paul Hart, teaching legend, PGA of Australia;

Neil Kynaston, Amateur Extraordinaire and long-time friend of LBG, Orlando;

Drew Chapman, our own Drewitgolf, Head Professional, Highland CC in Attleboro, Massachusetts, and our PGA of America hero;

Rob Baxter, PGA Section Champion, Drew's best buddy, and as BBAX, our cohort in crime;

Jeff Hull, one of LBG's Three Musketeers (I had camera duty, and Ted Fort was stilll eating :shock:).

:laughing9

Prom Dates
 

That picture can't be real. Only at low tide do I drink beer, but I do make exceptions.
Notice the unattended Vodka Tonic on the bar, lime still in the glass, waiting to be had, I believe that must be mine. And if anyone from Titleist is watching, notice I am upholding my staff contract...and...Jeff drinking Red Stripe...No Mon, can't be good for da' game.

Actually "A Great Time had by All" ! Don't miss your chance to be with Lynn and the Gang at the next get together. You will laugh, improve your game and have the time of your life.

BTW, Paul needs to stop hanging out with a cast of characters that include Neil. Paul is way too nice and there is a waitress looking to get in touch with Neil :naughty: . Thankfully I have fellow A.I. Rob Baxter (BBax) to keep me grounded. Whats that?...Its my round?...got to go...talk to you later...

Fastest Man Alive
 

Uh, Drew . . .

That would be a gin and tonic.

And it belonged to the man behind the camera.

:cool:

Hands off!

:laughing9

P.S. Then again, you were always 'Quick Draw McGraw' when the checks came -- no one had a chance! -- so all is forgiven.

:salut:

More than happy to get the next one....or several
 

That brings back some great memories.....and I hope this event will be back again this year as well. To anyone that is thinking about joining us.........just do it! You will be among great friends and best of all, the best instructors (and people) in the world. Cheers!:occasion: :occasion:

Put a handful of teef in a cup . .. shake 'em up . . . pitch 'em in a redneck's mouf . . YATZEE!!!!!

A fond memory indeed. Of late, I have been sailing, with Capt. Morgan, and the tide is always right to set sail. I will make every attempt to make an LBG gathing, if one is planned this year. Hope you and BBax will be there.

I will look forward to learning and enjoying the good fellowship of its participants.

PS. from the last posts, I am glad to see this thread degenerate into something I can understand. Learning about a subject of depth and interest, and memories of time spent in high spirits and comeradery. Deeply regret not being able to attend that meeting .

Yes this thread has degenerated simply because the whole lot of you can't argue the science. You just make up stuff which is unfortunately absolutely untrue in the scientific community.
Now why dont you argue the science instead or is it just a Boys Club and when you get out of your depth just as was the case with Dr Jeff Mann ( although he was a pain in the butt).

Maybe you just might learn something new from NMGolfer and even if you don't you just may confirm some detail you might not have been convinced of or knew exactly how to arrive at
Science and technology move forward and for sure Homer Kelley would embrace technology etc

The thing I dont get is that in my 6th edition, 2-C-1 the little arrows are labeled CF but in the Vector Legend, CF stands for "Clubhead Force".

Now if you guys are saying Clubhead Force doesnt exist then lets get back to the drinking at Cuscowilla thread and reality. How can you deny Clubhead Force?

ob


(the above is an example of debate by minced definition. Study 1-H for Homers definition of definitions)