Clubfitting and TGM
 

For the clubfitters.

How has your knowledge of The Golfing Machine changed your clubfitting approach?

Thanks,

Bagger

hmmm........................

This is a good question, Bagger. For those who respond, I would also like to ask... is it possible to accurately fit clubs for BOTH Swinging and Hitting, or should they only be fit for one of the procedures. (C'mon Brian, I know you have some thoughts on this!)

Club Fitting
 

Is club-fitting about fitting the clubs to the swing, or fitting the clubs to what the swing should be. Do most golfers want a magic club to fix an errant swing? Can a magic club fix an errant swing? I started golf in 1971. By 1980 I was playing Tommy Armour persimmon woods and Wilson Staff irons, all with steel shafts, no lob wedge, a balata ball, and shooting 81 consistently. A friend once told me I was the best 81 shooter he ever saw. It’s now 2005 I have a 45” long, Fujikura graphite shafted, 420cc, Titanium driver, frequency matched, MOI’d, spined, and what not . Perimeter weighted, forged cavity back irons with every different steel shaft imaginable, tour wedges, a belly putter, and the best golf balls known to man. Yes, I am 25 years older, but I’m still a consistent 81 shooter. Do you think it’s the arrow or the Indian? I’m now practicing my flying wedges, my grip, my pressure points, and alignments and hitting some shots that I’ve never dreamed of, (not all great). 34 years of bad habits to change. The proper swing is the cake and the fitted clubs are the icing. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a club nut, but I finally see the fog slowly lifting. Let’s stay on track.

CLUBS
 

For me, I had been going to more flex in the shafts. TGM says for me that I should be going to stiffer clubs, so I have switched to steel stiff shafts in irons and stiff graphite with my woods. My driver still has a R flex but I'd like to get it changed to stiff. I switched back to blades as well except the 3-5.

Distance is still the issue with me. I had swtiched to graphite to get more distance but they didn't help so I figured I might as well go back to steel.

I keep trying to build strength and working on the clubhead trailing the hands with firm left wrist in the hopes that those will help.

Dave

I agree with Rick's statement: "The proper swing is the cake and the fitted clubs are the icing." I have had so many club-fitting sessions end up being a G.O.L.F. lesson. I try to be honest and tell the player that until we make some changes to their current swing (or hit), they will never get the benefit out of a new set of clubs. Most of the time, they are willing to attempt making a change. When they see that they can actually change their ball flight (some of them for the first time in their life), they leave happy and comeback happy.

It is the indian, not the arrow. But, a good indian with a good set of arrows goes along way.

BTW, if the purchaser is someone who does not care to change his (or her) stroke, will never practice, wants to buy a game, and has a wallet the size of their ego...then step right this way. Do I have a set of clubs for you. :lol:

Brians hmmmm there shows there are differing opinions on this topic. The rule of thumb is to fit people with the lightest most flexible club THAT THEY CAN CONTROL.

For some that might need stiff stiff stiff. Lynn correct me if I have the wrong end of the stick but Homers idea was to have as stiff a shaft as you can (control)?

Hittes need stiffer shafts because of the way they load the shaft. Swingers have much more choise in the matter.

Steel shafts have not changed much in decades (OK OK its a rule of thumb statement) but graphites now have many of the NASA composite fellows working in the design teams allowing many more types of loading actions to be dealt with. I truely believe that Homer would have been hugely interested in the techinical evidence of what shafts can now be made to do
"alongside players release mechanisms". Shock horror even Tom Wishon has come out with a 'theory' on that side of things now....wonder where the conversation started him thinking about that one :wink:

For an average player the lightest most flexible shaft will help more than hinder. As you get better then the loading of the shaft differs and so the need to change shafts becomes an issue to get the most out of the tool in hand.

Stiff Shafts And Hard Balls
 

Correct, Paul.

The stiffest Shafts. For Hitters, something to 'push against,' so it makes much difference. For Swingers, a 'piece of string,' so it makes little difference.

The hardest Balls. From shoulder height, drop onto concrete a medium compression Ball -- so-called 'right' for the average player -- and a high compression Ball -- right for the good player. Which bounced highest?

Now, ask yourself:

Why would I ever want to play the Ball that bounced lowest?

Re: Stiff Shafts And Hard Balls
 

Lynn,

Could you clarify. I thought a softer, lower compression ball (like a noodle or a laddie), actually compresses more against the clubhead. The multi layered balls won't compress as well with a slower clubhead speed, and thus, won't compress the inner layers, which is the name of the game for distance. I'm very confused about all of this, needless to say.

Re: Stiff Shafts And Hard Balls
 

For more control around the greens! Dropping a ball from my shoulder might approximate how hard I hit a chip ... Why would I want a ball that chips "hot"?
I don't believe compression matters like it used to. A ProV1 isn't going to bounce as high as an old Top Flite XL, but I'll bet it goes further off of my driver.

Since the death of “wound" balls when it was important to 'wrap' the windings in a consistent manner and sort them to their compression. The advances in solid core, two, three and four layer balls allows manufacturers to build in compression and to use “flobber-like” cores and thin mantles and covers to propel balls with whatever characteristics they need. Jack never had a ball designed for his game, nor did Trevino, or Watson. Today Tiger, Els and others have their own ball.

The ProVI has a compression of as ladies ball of ten years ago.

The height a ball bounces from shoulder height makes zero difference when its designed to be squashed by a ton of clubhead mash. Its how the inside of the ball squashes thats more important. Its also why so much money and design has gone into the ball industry lately.

Generally speaking lower compression balls work better for slower swing speed players. High swing speeders need higher compression balls as they deform the lower ones too much. Slower you swing, the more loft and lower compression ball you need to generate lift on the ball.

Coefficient Of Restitution
 

My post was a general statement concerning the Ball's 'bounciness'. Measured by the Coefficient of Restitution (C.O.R.), this bounce enables the Ball to leave the Clubface at a speed faster than that of the Clubhead. This Coefficient is about 0.7 with the modern 'high compression' Ball, which means that Ball Speed will be approximately 40 percent greater than Clubhead Speed.

My example of dropping a Ball from shoulder height onto concrete was meant only as a simple appeal to the reader's common sense, not to indicate how the C.O.R. is determined in the laboratory or how Ball velocity is tested by Rules Officials. For example, by dropping a Ball from a known height (H) and measuriing its bounce (B), we can determine the C.O.R. as follows:

H/B = Coefficient Squared

Assuming a Ball is dropped 36 inches and bounces 22 inches, the 'bounce Ratio' (H/B) would be 0.61. Since this number is the Coefficient Squared, the Coefficient would be its square root, or 0.78. However, because this test (the drop from the shoulder) was at low speed, the result somewhat overstates the actual coefficient (which we've seen is about 0.7.). This is the rationale behind the Rule stating that the Ball's velocity must be measured on an R&A device that approximates a driver's Impact.

When a Ball is struck under circumstances approximating actual playing conditions, it is deformed ('flattened' on the Clubface) far greater than when simply dropped. This flattening of the Ball and subsequent rebound causes a loss of energy, and the greater the flattening, the greater the loss and the lower the Ball Speed. Because the 'harder' (higher compression) Ball flattens less than the low compression alternative, it leaves the Clubface at a higher Speed.

Certainly, other factors will affect the Ball's ultimate performance and suitability for a given player's Game , e.g., basic structure, dimple design, materials, weight, durability and manufacturing quality controls. But for the reasons stated, the high compression Ball will generally perform better than the low compression Ball (at any clubhead speed).

The 'shop bounce test' has always amused me but its amazing how many people beleive the results:)

The amount a ball can be deformed (compressed) is the key. Find a ball that compresses best for your game. If it compresses too much then you need a higher compression ball. Its why ladies balls are not much use of most men.

High Compression Balls Or 'Ten Cent Pickups'?
 

Paul,

Are you aware of any published studies that support the thesis of increased yardage for 'average' players -- those with slower clubhead speeds -- using a low compression Ball versus a higher compression Ball? Or any other work that would shed authoritative light on this subject? [Unsupported advertiser's claims and recommendations don't fit the definition.] I don't claim to be an expert in this area and would like to know more. As an example, I've never tested the 'average' lady to see if she can hit a 'ladies Ball' further than a 'men's' high compression Ball. My assumption is she cannot, but surely there must have been at least some empirical work done to support this separate product line.

I can tell you that Homer Kelley believed that the higher compression Ball offered superior performance for all classes of players. Ever practical, however, he also stated, "If they can't take advantage of [the better Ball because they're always duffing it], then 'ten cent pickups' will work just as well."

Funny you should ask that. Its a pet project that is being worked on over the next 12mths with lots of balls and playes being studied. The findings will pop up here as I go:)

I can tell you this. One rather large company spent mega 4 tuning balls to driver to a player 2 years ago and his resulted length increase is there for all to see..... not naming him but he plays golf easy:)

I'd love to see some results, looking forward to it. I've experimented quite a bit with different brands for my own game. I've been surprised to find that while I give up some distance, I actually really find a slightly softer ball much, much easier to control. I love the feel of the ball 'sticking to the face' through impact. Compression.

Take for example the old top flight xl (or even the original 'tour ediion'). Certainly a fairly 'hot' ball. Compared to the newer top flight 'feel' ball.

At least for my game, there is simply no comparison, the 'feel' ball, while a 'softer' ball, gives me much, much more control. At the very least, much more feedback.

There is little doubt at all that the ball of today is far better than the ball of just a few years ago. I notice this most on windy days. A 'high spin' ball of 5-10 years ago would play great on a calm day, but upshoot in heavy wind. Most balls today can handle cutting through the wind without such extreme upshoot, if any. Of course how much a ball is influenced by the wind is also a matter of how well it compresses (just like throwing a frisbee - lots of spin, as a general rule, equals more control).

There is much more to the performance of a golf ball than the "compression" of the ball. There is spin, trajectory and aerodynamics. In the hands of a better player, the "feel" factor and spin ratios become beyond important, they become required. If a Top-Flite XL performed the "bounce test" with the most success, then why did the tour players play a wound ball? Fred Couples and many were using the Professional 90's instead of the 100's. This was due to spin, feel, and performance.

Today's ball is completely different (Pro V's) Slightly harder in feel, yet spins plenty and fly's better than ever.

Yet, most practice balls or range balls are Top-Flite or Pinnicles due to the hard as rock feel and durability ..... not performance. Did Lee Trevino really win with Top-Flites?

club fitting
 

Henry-Griffitts...Any questions?
TGM and Henry-Griffitts go together like grits and butter. Need I say more?

The next time I'm about to spine align a shaft, I will consider spining it according to the center of gravity of the club. In laymans terms: Letting the clubhead hanging straight down on the shaft and aligning the spine vertically - along the gravity plane.