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-   -   The Kelley Five (http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6364)

comdpa 02-04-2006 06:16 AM

The Kelley Five
 
Looking through the book, it seems that there are only 5 drills that Mr. Kelley speaks of. These drills are the foundation of what I use to teach.

I have taken the liberty of assigning names where none existed. Please correct or add to this list if there are in errors and/or ommissions of such drills described by Mr. Kelley.

1) Hinge Action Education

Per 2-G: "For a Practice drill, Educate the Left Hand (5-0) to reproduce - with Zero Pivot - the three Hinge Actions, distinct and separate, while swinging continuously back and forth. First without a Club, then with a short Club, then with both Hands. Then with increasing Pivot motion using the Right Forearm per 7-19. Learning only one Action isn't so helpful because you won't know their differences.

2) Cut Shot Therapy

Per 3-F-7-A: "A very successful anti-steering therapy is an exaggerated "inside-out" Cut Shot per 10-5-E...You always Swing along the Plane Line but not always along the Flight Line. So learn dismiss the Flight Line. Depend on Clubface alignment for direction control (2-J). In fact, learn to execute all Plane Line Variations (10-5) to remove all uncertainty from your Computer (14-0)."

This coincides with 3-F-6: "MASTER'S level of execution. That is - with and without Wristcock, with and without #3 Accumulator, with any Hinging, with any Plane Line Combination (10-5) from any Ball Location, Hitting or Swinging, with Right Forearm Takeaway (7-3) and with a motionless Right Wrist."

Ben Doyle told me in Carmel last summer that when I master this, I will be "very difficult to beat".

3) The Release Motions Drill

Per 4-D-0: "Construct an Inclined Plane such as shown in 10-5, or find a low bench, fence rail or anything providing the Clubshaft with a straight edge or flat surface - and swing the Clubshaft back and forth along that edge or surface while executing the above Wrist and Hand Motions until you thoroughly understand their relation to 10-5."

I use this drill to teach the Release Motions as well as teach a proper Follow Through (8-11 and 6-H-C) and a Straight Plane Line per the 3rd Essential (2-0-B-3).

4) The Flat Left Wrist Drill

Per 4-D-1: "Take a very "short" Grip and practice swinging back and forth with the top of the Clubshaft against the inside of the Left Forearm until you can hold the Wrist steady with a normal Grip. So - there must be the Flat Left Wrist. Or its equivalent (10-2-G). Or a compensation (6-D, 7-19, 6-C-2-E).

5) The Rhythm Drill

Rhythm is holding both Lever Assemblies to the same basic RPM throughout the Stroke while overtaking all other Components at a steady, even rate. (because of the Flat Left Wrist) (Glossary)

Per 7-10: "For a very basic drill, practice all Hinge Motions - by moving the Left Arm (only)0 back and forth - on their normal Plane AND on the Inclined Plane, without a Club and with the Wrist Flat and Vertical to learn the Feel of the Rhythmic motion required through Impact per 2-G."

12 piece bucket 02-04-2006 07:25 AM

Cut Shot
 
C,

How do you teach the Cut Shot?

Thanks!

B

Martee 02-04-2006 09:41 AM

Don't know if you would classify these as drills, checks or methods of illustrations

5.0 - The flashlight to trace

2-F - On-Plane (probably a check)

2-G - Three Hinges alignment at follow-through to Plane Line (probably part of your first one) This identifies each.

6-C-0-2 - Lag Pressure in 5 yds increments

I think there are a few other references as to what to practice and/or check.

cometgolfer 02-04-2006 10:45 AM

Cut Shot Therapy
 
Comdpa,

I'd like to hear more about cut shot therapy. I understand the plane line is closed in relation to the target line and that cut shot implies we'll be using vertical hinging. Are we essentially just setting up with a clubface that is facing the line-of-flight at impact fix and then executing a vertical hinge while swinging on the plane line?

How do you use it with your students? Is it simply to get the student to trust their alignments and keep a straight plane line?

Comet

Doug 02-04-2006 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by comdpa
Looking through the book, it seems that there are only 5 drills that Mr. Kelley speaks of. These drills are the foundation of what I use to teach.


Justin

Great post...

I am out the door to work on cut shot action.......

Yoda 02-04-2006 11:34 AM

More Homer Kelley Drills
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by comdpa

Please correct or add to this list if there are in errors and/or ommissions of such drills described by Mr. Kelley.

Good job, comdpa. Here are fourteen more, either specifically stated or implied:

1. Right Forearm Flying Wedge (2-F). "Learn to hold the Forearm in the Feel of the same Plane per 7-3, dynamically in-line." I recommend using a dowel or headless Shaft to learn this through the Twelve Sections of the Stroke. Especially make sure you have the 'sense' of the Right Forearm Flying Wedge at The Top as well as at Impact Fix.

2. Anti-Shank (2-F). Practice Start Down Waggles with Clubface 'Turned' on Plane (Clubshaft and Sweet Spot aligned).

3. On Plane Clubshaft (2-F). Practice the "very simple but very accurate checks for being 'On Plane.'" That is, the Clubshaft either points at the Line or is parallel to it at all times. Also per 2-N-0, a "STRAIGHT LINE RELATIONSHIP TO A STRAIGHT LINE -- POINTING AT A STRAIGHT LINE."

4. Hinge Action With Open Hands (2-G). "Practice these motions first with open Hands per Chapters 4 and 9."

5. Hinge Action Check at Follow-Through (2-G). "Stop at the end of a short Chip Shot -- the Club at about 45 degrees." The Toe of the Club will point along the Line with Horizontal Hinging; 45 degrees across the Line with Angled Hinging; or 90 degrees across the Line (Clubface Square) with Vertical Hinging.

6. Rhythm (2-G). At end of Follow-Through, keeping Hands in same location, rotate through the three Hinge Actions and observe the difference in the 'In-Line' Clubhead travel of each.

7. Total Motion (3-B). Execute the Full Pivot Stroke at one half and one quarter speed as smoothly as at full speed. Inability to do this "indicates a flaw in the full speed procedure."

8. Start Down Waggle (3-F-5). Practice the Start Down Waggle to train Educated Hands to 'get through' the Start Down (3-B). Take it "through the Address Waggle area. Check for On Plane Clubshaft and Right Shoulder, for Right Forearm tracing the Delivery Line and for 'Clearing the Right Hip.'"

9. Wrist Positions (4-0). "For a firm Grip and flexible Wrist action practice all Wrist positions and motions with a firmly clenched fist as well as with the open Hand."

10. Finish Swivel (4-D-0). Go to the end of the Follow-Through (Both Arms Straight position) with the Left Wrist vertical to one of the three Basic Planes (Horizontal, Vertical or Angled). Slowly rotate the Wrists into their "parallel to the Plane" position for the Finish. The Finish Swivel is a key element of the Total Motion and is indispensable as a bridge from Follow-Through to the Finish. Sadly, it is completely missing from the Stroke of most players, and they are left only with a bending Left Wrist to enable the Club to 'pass the Hands.' You 'prepare' for the correct Finish Swivel (by making a compatible and correct motion earlier in the Stroke). Similarly, you also 'prepare' for the dreaded Chicken Wing (by making a compatible but incorrect motion).

11. Right Arm Straightening (4-D-1). "Learn to straighten the Right Arm Arm without flattening the Right Wrist. Practice doing just and only that -- diligently -- with and without a Club. Then learn to 'float' from The Top through Impact, an inert, unstressed Right Wrist with its Impact Fix degree of Bend."

12. Plane Line Tracing (5-0). Trace the Plane Line with the Right Forearm and #3 Pressure Point "as though a flashlight were lashed to the Right Forearm with the #3 Pressure Point as the lens causing its beam to move along the Reference Line." This is Delivery Line (of the Clubhead) practice.

13. Aiming Point (6-E-2). "At the top of the Backstroke -- even at the End -- mentally construct a line from the #3 Pressure Point to the Aiming Point. Let a careful Downstroke direct the thrust precisely along this line. Hitting or Swinging, direct the #3 Pressure Point strongly downward to insure the 'Downward' element of Three Dimensional Impact. That is TRY TO DRIVE THE BALL INTO THE GROUND, NOT INTO THE AIR." This is Delivery Path (of the Hands) practice.

14. Magic of the Right Forearm (7-3). From Impact Fix (and with Zero Pivot), practice using Right Elbow Action to "RAISE and LOWER the Left Arm and to COCK AND UNCOCK the Left Wrist without Bending, Flattening or Cocking the Right Wrist."

mb6606 02-04-2006 11:36 AM

Use a square square stance. Cut shot therapy teaches one to use the right forearm angle of approach. The hands go down and out dismissing the flight/target line. The clubhead goes in to out. The cut comes from using an angled hinge.

Use your dowels to practice pitching. One dowel each for toe line, target line and angle of approach.

cometgolfer 02-04-2006 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mb6606
Use a square square stance. Cut shot therapy teaches one to use the right forearm angle of approach. The hands go down and out dismissing the flight/target line. The clubhead goes in to out. The cut comes from using an angled hinge.

Use your dowels to practice pitching. One dowel each for toe line, target line and angle of approach.

MB,

10-5-E is a "closed-closed" guide line. So the target line would be facing left of the plane/stance line. And wouldn't a cut shot procedure require a vertical hinge? That's why cut shot therapy has always confused me.

CG

Yoda 02-04-2006 11:47 AM

Inside-Out Cut Shot Therapy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cometgolfer

I'd like to hear more about cut shot therapy. I understand the plane line is closed in relation to the target line and that cut shot implies we'll be using vertical hinging. Are we essentially just setting up with a clubface that is facing the line-of-flight at impact fix and then executing a vertical hinge while swinging on the plane line?

How do you use it with your students? Is it simply to get the student to trust their alignments and keep a straight plane line?

That's right, Comet. The Plane Line is Closed and the Clubface is aligned Square to the Target. You then ignore the Target Line and swing along the Plane Line while utilizing Vertical Hinging through Impact. The student learns in the most dramatic way that the Ball goes on the Line of the Clubface, not on the Line of the Clubhead travel.

This training is especially effective with Putts and short Chips. Here, there is insufficient 'air time' for the Venturi Effect to produce a curve in the Ball's Flight Path. For example, demonstrate a radically In-to-Out Putting Stroke with the Clubface aligned to the Hole. The Ball goes toward the Hole, not well out to the Right as did the Clubhead. The same holds true for a radically Out-to-In Stroke. We've all known guys who could Putt the lights out Cutting every putt into the Hole.

Personally, I'll never forget my boyhood friend, Bobby Teague. He cut everything... from Drive to Putt. He was short off the Tee, but boy, could he Putt!

cometgolfer 02-04-2006 12:08 PM

Therapy
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoda
That's right, Comet. The Plane Line is Closed and the Clubface is aligned Square to the Target. You then ignore the Target Line and swing along the Plane Line while utilizing Vertical Hinging through Impact. The student learns in the most dramatic way that the Ball goes on the Line of the Clubface, not on the Line of the Clubhead travel.

This training is especially effective with Putts and short Chips. Here, there is insufficient 'air time' for the Venturi Effect to produce a curve in the Ball's Flight Path. For example, demonstrate a radically In-to-Out Putting Stroke with the Clubface aligned to the Hole. The Ball goes toward the Hole, not well out to the Right as did the Clubhead. The same holds true for a radically Out-to-In Stroke. We've all known guys who could Putt the lights out Cutting every putt into the Hole.

Personally, I'll never forget my boyhood friend, Bobby Teague. He cut everything... from Drive to Putt. He was short off the Tee, but boy, could he Putt!

Yoda,

Thanks for the clarification. I can see how it would clearly show the student the clubface/clubhead travel relationship and the benefit that would have for someone who "steers".

Comet

comdpa 02-04-2006 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 12 piece bucket
C,

How do you teach the Cut Shot?

Thanks!

B

Hi Col,

There are actually two ways that I teach the Cut Shot.

The first is with the Cut Shot Therapy per 3-F-7-A using a 10-5-E plane line. This is usually taught to students with a Bent Left Wrist and Clubhead Throwaway.

The Student will be made to trace the plane line first with a shaft, then a regular club and finally with the club and ball.

The focus as always is to monitor the Hands and identify a feel that the mechanical exercise gives to the Hands. All the student needs to do to replicate the mechanics is to reproduce the feel that the Hands went through.

The other cut shot that I teach is per 2-C-2..."a cut shot is any Stroke using Vertical Hinging (10-10) through Impact regardless of Plane Line (10-5) or the preceding Wrist Action (10-18 )."

Please note that this shot has the same underlying principle as that of the Cut Shot Therapy.

I teach this exclusively as a special application of the Acquired Motion (12-5-2) although it can also be applied to the Basic Motion (12-5-1) and Total Motion (12-5-3)

Procedure:

1. Aim the clubface at intended target and then grip the club.

2. Without taking the hands off the grip, rotate the grip clockwise so that the grip becomes a 10-2-D grip, "which is very compatible with Cut Shot procedures."

3. Now the target line is way right while the plane line and stance line is still square to the original target line.

4. Rotate the target, stance and plane lines to the left until the target line is pointing back at the intended target. You now have a 10-5-D Open Open Plane Line.

5. Simply trace the new plane line with a vertical hinge - while swinging or hitting.

Use this shot around the greens in place of the more risky Lob Shot per 2-C-3 and see if you don't save strokes around the green.

Some students of mine love the results and the simplicity so much that they use this as their main short game stroke.

comdpa 02-04-2006 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoda

Good job, comdpa. Here are a few more, either specifically stated or implied:

Thanks Yoda...greatly appreciated, wow:) !!

comdpa 02-04-2006 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug
Justin

Great post...

I am out the door to work on cut shot action.......

Thanks...that is our little secret there Doug, the "Thousand Dollar Lesson" like you mentioned! ;)

comdpa 02-04-2006 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cometgolfer
MB,

10-5-E is a "closed-closed" guide line. So the target line would be facing left of the plane/stance line. And wouldn't a cut shot procedure require a vertical hinge? That's why cut shot therapy has always confused me.

CG

Help is always at hand in LBG.

There are 3 lines...The Plane Line, Stance Line and the Target Line.

Per 1-L-19: "Stance Line, Plane Line and Flight Line are normally parallel." That is your 10-5-A Square Square Plane Line. I would like to direct your attention to the pictures.

The one closest to Diane is the Stance Line. The next closest is the Inclined Plane Line and the farthest is the Target Line.

The target line can and must be rotated to be in line with your intended target. It is moveable. I believe this should clarify your doubts.

But remember, the Plane Line and Stance Line must be rotated in tandem with the Target Line otherwise a new plane line (10-5) will be established.

The Inclined Plane Line is the line that you trace and per 3-F-5, the "Plane Line (10-5) must be verified before every shot as long as the game is played."

hcw 02-04-2006 01:57 PM

Doh!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by comdpa
Help is always at hand in LBG.

There are 3 lines...The Plane Line, Stance Line and the Target Line.

Per 1-L-19: "Stance Line, Plane Line and Flight Line are normally parallel." That is your 10-5-A Square Square Plane Line. I would like to direct your attention to the pictures.

The one closest to Diane is the Stance Line. The next closest is the Inclined Plane Line and the farthest is the Target Line.[/b]

help at hand in unexpected places!...the above helps answers my question in:

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...26&postcount=8

what is the third point to define the inclined plane?...it's the bottom of the shaft!...THANKS!

-hcw

EdZ 02-04-2006 02:03 PM

Wonderful 'executive summaries'.

These should be made a sticky at the top of the drills section ;)

Great information and a wonderful 'map' to improvement!


Quote:

Originally Posted by comdpa
Looking through the book, it seems that there are only 5 drills that Mr. Kelley speaks of. These drills are the foundation of what I use to teach.

I have taken the liberty of assigning names where none existed. Please correct or add to this list if there are in errors and/or ommissions of such drills described by Mr. Kelley.

1) Hinge Action Education

Per 2-G: "For a Practice drill, Educate the Left Hand (5-0) to reproduce - with Zero Pivot - the three Hinge Actions, distinct and separate, while swinging continuously back and forth. First without a Club, then with a short Club, then with both Hands. Then with increasing Pivot motion using the Right Forearm per 7-19. Learning only one Action isn't so helpful because you won't know their differences.

2) Cut Shot Therapy

Per 3-F-7-A: "A very successful anti-steering therapy is an exaggerated "inside-out" Cut Shot per 10-5-E...You always Swing along the Plane Line but not always along the Flight Line. So learn dismiss the Flight Line. Depend on Clubface alignment for direction control (2-J). In fact, learn to execute all Plane Line Variations (10-5) to remove all uncertainty from your Computer (14-0)."

This coincides with 3-F-6: "MASTER'S level of execution. That is - with and without Wristcock, with and without #3 Accumulator, with any Hinging, with any Plane Line Combination (10-5) from any Ball Location, Hitting or Swinging, with Right Forearm Takeaway (7-3) and with a motionless Right Wrist."

Ben Doyle told me in Carmel last summer that when I master this, I will be "very difficult to beat".

3) The Release Motions Drill

Per 4-D-0: "Construct an Inclined Plane such as shown in 10-5, or find a low bench, fence rail or anything providing the Clubshaft with a straight edge or flat surface - and swing the Clubshaft back and forth along that edge or surface while executing the above Wrist and Hand Motions until you thoroughly understand their relation to 10-5."

I use this drill to teach the Release Motions as well as teach a proper Follow Through (8-11 and 6-H-C) and a Straight Plane Line per the 3rd Essential (2-0-B-3).

4) The Flat Left Wrist Drill

Per 4-D-1: "Take a very "short" Grip and practice swinging back and forth with the top of the Clubshaft against the inside of the Left Forearm until you can hold the Wrist steady with a normal Grip. So - there must be the Flat Left Wrist. Or its equivalent (10-2-G). Or a compensation (6-D, 7-19, 6-C-2-E).

5) The Rhythm Drill

Rhythm is holding both Lever Assemblies to the same basic RPM throughout the Stroke while overtaking all other Components at a steady, even rate. (because of the Flat Left Wrist) (Glossary)

Per 7-10: "For a very basic drill, practice all Hinge Motions - by moving the Left Arm (only)0 back and forth - on their normal Plane AND on the Inclined Plane, without a Club and with the Wrist Flat and Vertical to learn the Feel of the Rhythmic motion required through Impact per 2-G."


Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoda
Good job, comdpa. Here are a few more, either specifically stated or implied:

1. Right Forearm Flying Wedge (2-F). "Learn to hold the Forearm in the Feel of the same Plane per 7-3, dynamically in-line." I recommend using dowels or headless Shaft to learn this through the Twelve Sections of the Stroke. Especially make sure you have the 'sense' of the Right Forearm Flying Wedge at The Top as well as at Impact Fix.

2. Anti-Shank (2-F). Practice Start Down Waggles with Clubface 'Turned' on Plane (Clubshaft and Sweet Spot aligned).

3. On Plane Clubshaft (2-F). Practice the "very simple but very accurate checks for being 'On Plane.'" That is, the Clubshaft either points at the Line or is parallel to it at all times. Also per 2-N-0, a "STRAIGHT LINE RELATIONSHIP TO A STRAIGHT LINE -- POINTING AT A STRAIGHT LINE."

4. Hinge Action With Open Hands (2-G). "Practice these motions first with open Hands per Chapters 4 and 9."

5. Hinge Action Check at Follow-Through (2-G). "Stop at the end of a short Chip Shot -- the Club at about 45 degrees." The Toe of the Club will point along the Line with Horizontal Hinging; 45 degrees across the Line with Angled Hinging; or 90 degrees across the Line (Clubface Square) with Vertical Hinging.

6. Rhythm (2-G). At end of Follow-Through, keeping Hands in same location, rotate through the three Hinge Actions and observe the difference in the 'In-Line' Clubhead travel of each.

7. Total Motion (3-B). Execute the Full Pivot Stroke at one half and one quarter speed as smoothly as at full speed. Inability to do this "indicates a flaw in the full speed procedure."

8. Start Down Waggle (3-F-5). Practice the Start Down Waggle to train Educated Hands to 'get through' the Start Down (3-B). Take it "through the Address Waggle area. Check for On Plane Clubshaft and Right Shoulder, for Right Forearm tracing the Delivery Line and for 'Clearing the Right Hip.'"

9. Wrist Positions (4-0). "For a firm Grip and flexible Wrist action practice all Wrist positions and motions with a firmly clenched fist as well as with the open Hand."

10. Finish Swivel (4-D-0). Go to the end of the Follow-Through (Both Arms Straight position) with the Left Wrist vertical to one of the three Basic Planes (Horizontal, Vertical or Angled). Slowly rotate the Wrists into their "parallel to the Plane" position for the Finish. The Finish Swivel is a key element of the Total Motion and is indispensable as a bridge from Follow-Through to the Finish. Sadly, it is completely missing from the Stroke of most players, and they are left only with a bending Left Wrist to enable the Club to 'pass the Hands.' You 'prepare' for the correct Finish Swivel (by making a compatible and correct motion earlier in the Stroke). Similarly, you also 'prepare' for the dreaded Chicken Wing (by making a compatible but incorrect motion).

11. Right Arm Straightening (4-D-1). "Learn to straighten the Right Arm Arm without flattening the Right Wrist. Practice doing just and only that -- diligently -- with and without a Club. Then learn to 'float' from The Top through Impact, an inert, unstressed Right Wrist with its Impact Fix degree of Bend."

12. Plane Line Tracing (5-0). Trace the Plane Line with the Right Forearm and #3 Pressure Point "as though a flashlight were lashed to the Right Forearm with the #3 Pressure Point as the lens causing its beam to move along the Reference Line." This is Delivery Line (of the Clubhead) practice.

13. Aiming Point (6-E-2). "At the top of the Backstroke -- even at the End -- mentally construct a line from the #3 Pressure Point to the Aiming Point. Let a careful Downstroke direct the thrust precisely along this line. Hitting or Swinging, direct the #3 Pressure Point strongly downward to insure the 'Downward' element of Three Dimensional Impact. That is TRY TO DRIVE THE BALL INTO THE GROUND, NOT INTO THE AIR." This is Delivery Path (of the Hands) practice.

14. Magic of the Right Forearm (7-3). From Impact Fix (and with Zero Pivot), practice using Right Elbow Action to "RAISE and LOWER the Left Arm and to COCK AND UNCOCK the Left Wrist without Bending, Flattening or Cocking the Right Wrist."


Yoda 02-04-2006 02:18 PM

The Fixed Target Line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by comdpa

The target line can and must be rotated to be in line with your intended target. It is moveable.

The term Target Line always refers to the Flight Line, the straightaway direction of Aim. The term Flight Path refers to the total ball behavior (including any curve) on its way to the Target (7-3). The Target Line is dictated by circumstance and is immoveable.

Stance Line and Plane Line are moveable and can be aligned (in relation to the fixed Target Line) to produce any one of the nine Plane Line - Stance Line Combinations (three Stance Lines to each of the three Plane Lines per 10-5-0). The Plane Line - Stance Line Combination selected will reflect the player's Basic Stroke Pattern or its Variation, psychological preference, the intended Ball Behavior (Flight Path) or all three.

As a special note to those who have gone nuts trying to crack the code of CCW and CW in 10-5-0, the terms mean Counter Clockwise and Clockwise. :cool:

jr33 02-04-2006 03:40 PM

The jet lag must be over
 
The slinger is back to his old self and starting to sling.=D>

birdie_man 02-04-2006 06:35 PM

Great thread guys....really.

comdpa 02-04-2006 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jr33
The slinger is back to his old self and starting to sling.=D>

You bet buddy...the past three - four days have been awful. There were times when I was not even sure what day it was.

comdpa 02-04-2006 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoda
The term Target Line always refers to the Flight Line, the straightaway direction of Aim. The term Flight Path refers to the total ball behavior (including any curve) on its way to the Target (7-3). The Target Line is dictated by circumstance and is immoveable.

Stance Line and Plane Line are moveable and can be aligned (in relation to the fixed Target Line) to produce any one of the nine Plane Line - Stance Line Combinations (three Stance Lines to each of the three Plane Lines per 10-5-0). The Plane Line - Stance Line Combination selected will reflect the player's Basic Stroke Pattern or its Variation, psychological preference, the intended Ball Behavior (Flight Path) or all three.

As a special note to those who have gone nuts trying to crack the code of CCW and CW in 10-5-0, the terms mean Counter Clockwise and Clockwise. :cool:

Thanks Yoda for elaborating that Stance Line and Plane Line are always classified in relation to Target Line.

When I referred to Target Line being "moveable", I really meant that people ought to look at 10-5 and know that the target line is not really pointing way right or way left of their target but at the target.

That was hard to get for me initially - what is not stated in the book was that Mr. Kelley's garage was so tiny that he had to take certain shots from a "misleading" angle".

Martee 02-04-2006 10:19 PM

Almost had it
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoda
The term Target Line always refers to the Flight Line, the straightaway direction of Aim. The term Flight Path refers to the total ball behavior (including any curve) on its way to the Target (7-3). The Target Line is dictated by circumstance and is immoveable.

Stance Line and Plane Line are moveable and can be aligned (in relation to the fixed Target Line) to produce any one of the nine Plane Line - Stance Line Combinations (three Stance Lines to each of the three Plane Lines per 10-5-0). The Plane Line - Stance Line Combination selected will reflect the player's Basic Stroke Pattern or its Variation, psychological preference, the intended Ball Behavior (Flight Path) or all three.

As a special note to those who have gone nuts trying to crack the code of CCW and CW in 10-5-0, the terms mean Counter Clockwise and Clockwise. :cool:

Yes, Yes, this is one of the things I have been fighting.

Is it correct to say the Line of Flight is the Flight Line?

I have been assuming that it is based on 7-5/10-5.

The only thing that has driven me bonkers is 2-F paragraph 3 where it is stated "Whenever the Clubshaft is parallel to the ground it must also be parallel to the base line of the Inclined Plane (7-5/10-5 Plane Line as I understand it) which is usually (but not always) the Line of Flight also."

This tells me that after I have accepted the Flight Line (Line of Flight) as the Target Line, that it now being referenced as the base line of the Inclined Plane which by 7-5/10-5 this can not be...

I really thought, believed that the Line of Flight, Flight Line and Target Line were all the same line based on the references used, but this 2-F is confusing.

Help....

annikan skywalker 02-04-2006 11:25 PM

I believe in the 2nd or 3rd edition ...Homer referred to the Line of Flight in regards to the Clubface....I could stand to be corrected due to not having those editions here in front of me...but at my office.....I will double check on Monday...

Martee 02-05-2006 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by annikan skywalker
I believe in the 2nd or 3rd edition ...Homer referred to the Line of Flight in regards to the Clubface....I could stand to be corrected due to not having those editions here in front of me...but at my office.....I will double check on Monday...

In the latest version he does have several reference to the Line of Flight and the clubface (2-E, 1-L-17,2-N-0[?]), can't recall the others...

Martee 02-06-2006 10:43 AM

Hope
 
Bump in hope of some response to post #22 questions..

Mike O 02-06-2006 11:18 AM

Flight Line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Martee
Yes, Yes, this is one of the things I have been fighting.

Is it correct to say the Line of Flight is the Flight Line?

I have been assuming that it is based on 7-5/10-5.

The only thing that has driven me bonkers is 2-F paragraph 3 where it is stated "Whenever the Clubshaft is parallel to the ground it must also be parallel to the base line of the Inclined Plane (7-5/10-5 Plane Line as I understand it) which is usually (but not always) the Line of Flight also."

This tells me that after I have accepted the Flight Line (Line of Flight) as the Target Line, that it now being referenced as the base line of the Inclined Plane which by 7-5/10-5 this can not be...

I really thought, believed that the Line of Flight, Flight Line and Target Line were all the same line based on the references used, but this 2-F is confusing.

Help....

Marty,
If you are hitting straight shots, that is - you are not fading or drawing the ball, then the flight line, target line, plane line are all pointing in the same direction. So "Usually"- means hitting a straight shot.

annikan skywalker 02-06-2006 11:46 AM

Great Post...Mike o....


Therefore curvature is the "divergence" of these lines.....

Martee 02-06-2006 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike O
Marty,
If you are hitting straight shots, that is you are not fading or drawing the ball, then the flight line, target line, plane line are all pointing in the same direction. So "Usually"- means hitting a straight shot.

Not quite what I was looking for [B](edit)[/b] your response as I read it and understand it is that you have identified three separate and distinct lines..the first part was

1. Is the Line of Flight and Flight Line the same line, not two lines where one is superimposed over the other?

2. If they are the same line, just labeled differently, are they the Target Line as well, again only one line now with three different labels?

What I was under the impression that all three terms refer to the same single line and if you your stance is open to the Target Line, you could also say it is open to the Flight Line or Line of Flight. There is no exception, they are always just one line that has three different labels or terms.

Part 2 later.

Thanks for your help...

Yoda 02-06-2006 01:41 PM

Term Paper
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Martee

Not quite what I was looking for [B](edit)[/b] your response as I read it and understand it is that you have identified three separate and distinct lines..the first part was

1. Is the Line of Flight and Flight Line the same line, not two lines where one is superimposed over the other?

2. If they are the same line, just labeled differently, are they the Target Line as well, again only one line now with three different labels?

What I was under the impression that all three terms refer to the same single line and if you your stance is open to the Target Line, you could also say it is open to the Flight Line or Line of Flight. There is no exception, they are always just one line that has three different labels or terms.

You are right, Martee. The three terms refer to the same straight line to the Target. However, the Target Line can be differentiated from the Flight Line/Line of Flight in perspective.

Target Line refers to the straight Line ("straightaway direction of Aim") from the Ball to the Target, and the label emphasizes the ultimate destination. The terms Flight Line and Line of Flight likewise refer to the straight line from the Ball to the Target. However, these labels emphasize the normally-intended straight line Ball Flight.

The Plane Line -- the Base Line of the Inclined Plane -- intersects the Target Line (or, if you will, the Flight Line) as either Square, Open or Closed. Flight Path refers to the total Ball Behavior (including the curve produced by any divergence of the Plane Line and Target Line/Flight Line) on the way to the Target.

The Stance Line intersects the Plane Line as Square, Open or Closed, but has no effect on the direction of the Plane Line (and any divergence with the Target Line). Hence, it has no effect on the Flight Path (total Ball Behavior). Instead, the Stance affects only the Pivot, i.e., Open Stance (restricted Backstroke and free Follow-Through) versus Closed Stance (free Backstroke and restricted Follow-Through).

Martee 02-06-2006 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoda
You are right, Martee. The three terms refer to the same straight line to the Target. However, the Target Line can be differentiated from the Flight Line/Line of Flight in perspective.

Target Line refers to the straight Line ("straightaway direction of Aim") from the Ball to the Target, and the label emphasizes the ultimate destination. The terms Flight Line and Line of Flight likewise refer to the straight line from the Ball to the Target. However, these labels emphasize the normally-intended straight line Ball Flight.

The Plane Line -- the Base Line of the Inclined Plane -- intersects the Target Line (or, if you will, the Flight Line) as either Square, Open or Closed. Flight Path refers to the total Ball Behavior (including the curve produced by any divergence of the Plane Line and Target Line/Flight Line) on the way to the Target.

The Stance Line intersects the Plane Line as Square, Open or Closed, but has no effect on the direction of the Plane Line. Hence, it has no effect on the Flight Path (total Ball Behavior). Instead, the Stance affects only the Pivot, i.e., Open Stance (restricted Backstroke and free Follow-Through) versus Closed Stance (free Backstroke and restricted Follow-Through).


GREAT!!!!

Now for part two...this is where I go into the dump...

The only thing that has driven me bonkers is 2-F paragraph 3 where it is stated "Whenever the Clubshaft is parallel to the ground it must also be parallel to the base line of the Inclined Plane (7-5/10-5 Plane Line as I understand it) which is usually (but not always) the Line of Flight also."

This reads that the base line of the Inclined Plane is on the same line as the Line of Flight (on top of it), but our definition and understanding says that the three line, the stance line, plane line (base of Inclined Plane) and Target Line/Line of Flight/Flight Line are parallel to each for a straight shot or that the first two can cross/interest withe the Target Line/Line of Flight/Flight Line.

If it were to have said that it was the Sweet Spot Plane Line vs base of the Inclined Plane then it could be accurate.

I really believe based on my search that it should read that it is parallel both lines (usually) and should not indicate they are one of the same lines.

Yoda 07-09-2010 09:41 PM

Sweetspot Rules
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Martee (Post 60552)

GREAT!!!!

Now for part two...this is where I go into the dump...

The only thing that has driven me bonkers is 2-F paragraph 3 where it is stated "Whenever the Clubshaft is parallel to the ground it must also be parallel to the base line of the Inclined Plane (7-5/10-5 Plane Line as I understand it) which is usually (but not always) the Line of Flight also."

This reads that the base line of the Inclined Plane is on the same line as the Line of Flight (on top of it), but our definition and understanding says that the three line, the stance line, plane line (base of Inclined Plane) and Target Line/Line of Flight/Flight Line are parallel to each for a straight shot or that the first two can cross/interest withe the Target Line/Line of Flight/Flight Line.

If it were to have said that it was the Sweet Spot Plane Line vs base of the Inclined Plane then it could be accurate.

I really believe based on my search that it should read that it is parallel both lines (usually) and should not indicate they are one of the same lines.

Martee,

Please forgive the delayed reply . . . I'm four years late!

:laughing9

The answer is that Homer Kelley dictated the Sweet Spot Plane convention in 2-F:

"Regardless of where the Clubshaft and Clubhead are joined together, it always feels as if they are joined at the Sweet Spot -- the longitudinal center of gravity, the line of the pull of Centrifugal Force. So there is a "Clubshaft" Plane and a "Sweet Spot" or "Swing" Plane. But herein, unless otherwise noted, "Plane Angle" and "Plane Line" always refer to the Center of Gravity application."

In other words, Martee, when we're talkin' Plane, we're talkin' Sweetspot Plane, not Clubshaft Plane.

And remember, in full Strokes, the Clubshaft cannot stay on its own Address Plane. Instead, it rotates to the Sweetspot Plane on the Backstroke and then back to its own Plane during the Release Interval (Release, Impact and Follow-Through). Then, into the Finish, back onto the Plane of the Sweetspot.

So . . .

The Clubshaft rotates about the Sweetspot.

Not vice versa.


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