Three barrel versus four barrel hitting
 

I initially thought that a four barrel hitting stroke occurred according to the following sequence 4:1:2:3, and that a four barrel hitting action occurred when a right shoulder thrust downplane released PA#4 slightly before PA#1 became actively operational, while a triple barrel hitting action was only 1:2/3 without any preceding PA#4 release via a right shoulder thrust action.

However, I recently read this archived Yoda post.

"The Swinger's active Right Shoulder accelerates the Left Arm, and Centrifugal Force and its Throw-Out Action then powers the Clubhead. The Right Arm remains passive -- except for its Right Triceps Extensor Action and the #3 Pressure Point sensing and directing the Clubhead Lag -- and thus the Stroke remains Three-Barrel. In contrast, the Hitter's active Right Shoulder serves as the 'launching pad' for the Right Arm and its Muscular Drive-out Action that powers the Clubhead. Since the Right Arm then drives the entire Primary Lever Assembly (including the Left Arm), the Full-Power Hitting Stroke can properly be classified as Four-Barrel."

That Yoda post suggests that the full power hitting stroke can properly be classified as four barrel because the right arm drives the entire primary lever assembly, which includes the left arm. OK. Then what represents a triple barrel hitting action - ? where the right arm doesn't drive the left arm?

Jeff.

Jeff . .. . In hitting the right arm ALWAYS drives the left arm . . . . even if it's just single barrel. Ted describes 4-Barrell hitting as "it's easier to push a cannon ball that is already rolling than one that is at rest" The pivot takes up the slack in then the right arm drives everything out. If the right arm doesn't drive . . . it' ain't hitting.

Thanks for replying and indicating that even a single barrel hitting action drives the left arm. Could you please also provide your definitional understanding of the differences between a triple barrel versus four barrel hitting action.

Jeff.

Taking out the Barrel
 

Usually, If the Right Shoulder is doing work (any action) as opposed to not doing any work (just motion).

Drew

You are apparently implying that if the right shoulder is doing work, that it turns a three barrel hitting action into a four barrel hitting action. However, doesn't that work have to be defined in terms of further PA recruitment/involvement in the hitting action - turning a 1:2:3 pattern into a 4:1:2:3 pattern. Are you saying the right shoulder's active downplane movement releases PA#4 via a pivot-action and that PA#1 then becomes operant?

Jeff.

So you guys are still using cannon balls down in the South?

Jeff,

Cannot translate the last word to my language.

But,

The right shoulder can either be active or passive during startdown.

It will contribute with either action or motion.

the test
 

Nawww. But, look down this pipe for a minute. I want to show ya somethin'.

Now that was funny . . . . but there are many places to go with this one . . . .

Nice.. Very Nice... Gave me a Chuckle this morning!

:hang:
Oh BTW- I just added you to my list smart a.... :hang:

AC

The Merriam-Webster definition of "operant" = functioning or tending to produce effects.

I don't understand the concept of a passive right shoulder in a hitter's action. I thought that the right shoulder must move downplane to a certain degree to prevent a hitter "running out of right arm". That means that the right shoulder is actively moving downplane to transport the loaded power package for a finite time period before PA#1 releases. Therefore, in that sense, the right shoulder is active (operant) during a triple barrel or four barrel hitting action. I an trying to clearly understand the difference between triple barrel hitting and four barrel hitting from a TGM perspective, and whether the distinction has to involve the release of PA#4 via an active right shoulder downplane movement.

Jeff.

Basically it's the "launching pad" . . . the shoulder gets down plane so the right arm can push off the right shoulder . . . kinda like the ground when you jump.

7-12 PIVOT The Pivot is the utilization of multiple centers to produce a circular motion for generating Clubhead Force on an adjustable Plane. Plus the maintenance of balance throughout the weight shifts that accompany the turning and bending of the necessary for the two Line Delivery Paths. A Pivot is on superficially correct that fails to maintain alignments or allows the player to get “out of position”.

It is the massive vehicle which transports the Power Package Assembly to the launching pad and back-up support for the Hitters driving Right Arm (6-B-1). It is the massive rotor, supplying Angular Momentum for the Throw Out power transfer to the Swinger’s orbiting Left Arm (6-B-3).

12PB

In both a triple and four-barrel hitter's action, the right shoulder must actively move downplane and in both the right shoulder has to be the launching pad for release of PA#1. So, what's the key (definitional) difference between a triple barrel hitting action and a four-barrel hitting action?

Jeff.

The pivot loads the #4 pressure point . . . .

If PA#4 is always present wouldn't it be the elemination of PA#3 to make up three barrells of power. Release sequence 4,1,2 no load or unload of PA#3. What do you think Jeff? I like the question.:salut:

12PB

I find your answer unsatisfactory.

If a hitter loads correctly and gets his hands to the top of the swing (opposite the right shoulder) with his right forearm perpendicular to the primary lever assembly then his left arm does get across his chest and he is then essentially loading PP#4. That top of the backswing position is common to all hitters. I have never read anywhere that a triple barrel hitter has a different top of the backswing position than a four-barrel hitter, so I cannot imagine that there is a variation in the degree of loading of PP#4 during the backswing.

My first question then becomes is there is difference in the downswing pivot action of a four barrel hitter that causes him to unload PP#4 in a way that doesn't happen in a triple barrel hitter? The second question then becomes - is that first question of any relevance? In other words, is the difference between four barrel hitting and triple barrel hitting related to the unloading of PP#4, or is the difference due to some other biomechanical difference?

Ben - from my understanding of hitter's full power action, one cannot eliminate PA#3. A swinger releases PA#3 after PA#2 during the release swivel action phase of the downswing, while a hitter releases PA#2 and PA#3 simultaneously during the straight line thrust action of the release of PA#1 which applies force to the club in a radial direction (axe handle technique). In other words, my understanding is that both a triple barrel and four barrel hitter must have 1:2:3 in their sequence. My question is whether a four barrel hitter has an active release of PA#4 in his sequence.

Jeff.

The Basic Patterns in the 6th Edition in Chapter 12 or both 3 barrell patterns . . . .

Drive Loading . . . Stroke Variation 1,2,3 and Pressure Point Combo is Double 1,3

Drag Loading . .. . Stroke Variation 2,3,4 and Pressure Point Combo Triple 2,3,4

There is more to this short answer than first appears...

The left arm moving across the chest in the backswing does not mean that the acc4 is being used.

3 barrel hitters left arm would go to "top"...left arm across the chest but the pivot would be minimal and would play no role in loading power package....only in creating a backstop for the right arm thrust. There would be no tight sqeeze of the "glove under left armpit". There is pivot motion but in a facilitating way rather than an motion driving way.

4 barrels hitter would go to "top" and uses pivot thrust to load acc4....squeeze the glove under left arm pit... then somehow add on right arm thrust ....

at least that is the only way I can square this apparent circle...

It would be interesting to see 3D motion analysis of these different actions but I think that the 3 barrel hitter could be spotted easily by the relative lack of pivot action...IMO

GBD

Your post is of great interest because it implies that the loading of PA#4 doesn't occur in the backswing when the left arm is positioned across the upper chest, but only when the right shoulder thrusts downplane and applies increased pressure at PP#4. Does it state in TGM whether loading of PA#4 is a positional definition or whether PA#4 loading is defined in terms of the amount of pressure felt at PP#4?

The problem with defining loading of PA#4 as the "degree of pressure" felt at PP#4 and implying that PA#4 is not loaded if no/little pressure is felt at PP#4, then it becomes difficult to describe the Leslie King left arm swing methodology in terms of the loading and release of PA#4. In the Leslie King left arm swing methodology, the left arm is positioned against the left upper chest during the backswing without necessarily increasing pressure at PP#4, and during the downswing the left arm is pulled away from the chest due to the active contraction of the left shoulder girdle muscles, which means that no increased pressure is felt at PP#4. In fact, any sense of pressure at PP#4 decreases during the downswing.

The other problem with your concept of four barrel hitting being an increased sense of pressure at PP#4 (due to right shoulder thrust) is that even a triple barrel hitter's action must start with a right shoulder movement downplane that transports the power package down to a position where PA#1 starts to release. The right shoulder downplane thrust may not be as great in that situation and therefore it will not produce as much increased pressure at PP#4, but where would the dividing line be for the "degree of increased pressure sensed at PP#4" as being the definitional criteria that differentiates a triple barrel from a four barrel hitting action?

Jeff.

Jeff,

With 6-B-0 and 6-C-1 in mind.


The difference between a 3 and 4 barrel is which Acc you don´t use actively.

You release the acc with their corresponding pp.

So take a club and swing up to top. Do you feel pp4? Yes.

Now at startdown;
- to do a 4 barrel, start by actively doing a shoulder turn and thereby moving pp4 and then 1,2,3
Here the right shoulder is active

- to do a 3 barrel, start by moving pp1 and then 2,3
Here the right shoulder is passive and the acc4 is zeroed out, is does nothing but allows other things to happen.

How much onplane shoulder thrust does it need to be a 4 barrel? Any!

Now do you need 4 barrel on all shots, all the time?

AC

You wrote-: "Now at startdown;
- to do a 4 barrel, start by actively doing a shoulder turn and thereby moving pp4 and then 1,2,3
Here the right shoulder is active

- to do a 3 barrel, start by moving pp1 and then 2,3
Here the right shoulder is passive and the acc4 is zeroed out, is does nothing but allows other things to happen."

I have a great problem with your triple barrel swing action description. You are implying that one can start a hitting action by immediately releasing PA#1 without moving the power package assembly closer to the ball by means of an active right shoulder movement. That's impossible because one would run out of right arm and the hands could not reach impact fix alignment.

An analogy - imagine a boxer trying to knock-out his opponent with a right arm straightening action - a straight line right arm thrust aimed directly at his opponent's chin. There is one potential problem - if the distance between his right shoulder and the opponent's chin at the time of releasing his PA#1 is greater than the length of the straightened right arm, then his fist will not reach his opponent's chin. He needs to thrust his right shoulder forward while he releases PA#1 so that he can execute the knock-out blow.

I think that the right shoulder always has to actively move downplane before PA#1 is released - whether it is a triple barrel or four barrel hitting action.

Jeff.

Jeff,

Sorry for not being precise as Master Yoda.

I did not include component 14 since I took it for granted.

btw,

take a look at this

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/gallery...ry.php?cat=517

click on Hitting/Swinging.

YL looks more of an Aussie farmer.......:)

AC

Thanks for your input. Due to your input (including a personal communication), I think that I now understand the difference between a four barrel and a triple barrel hitter's action. I will describe the difference in my personal words and you, and others, can correct me if I am wrong.

In a triple barrel hitter's action the right shoulder moves closer to the ball before PA#1 releases, but not due to an active thrust of the right shoulder downplane. It occurs because the lower body shifts-rotates towards the ball and the sliding of the pelvis causes the entire torso (including the right shoulder) to move towards the ball. In that sense, the movement of the right shoulder towards the ball is passive, and the left arm moves to the same degree as the right shoulder so there is no increased pressure at PP#4.

In a four barrel hitter's action, an independent right shoulder thrust occurs at the start of the downswing that is independent (and supplementary) of the passive movement of the right shoulder that occurs secondary to the hip slide movement that occurs simultaneously. That independent/active right shoulder thrust movement increases pressure at PP#4 and thereby activates the release of PA#4. Shortly thereafter, PA#1 releases and drives the release of PA#2 and PA#3. Therefore, the total action is a four barrel action.

Jeff.

Spin the Launching Pad & shoot the aiming point!
 

Hi Jeff,

I think you got it right on your last post.
I've been experimenting a while since our last debate a few weeks ago on 4 barrel and I must say that I come to the same conclusions.

I would add something I found very important while executing a 4 barrel hit:

part 1) The blast of the chest of the left arm actively releases PA#4. At this point it is pretty much the same thing as you would do if swinging (regardless of the hinge which would be angled instead of horizontal)
part 2) Then I discovered that to hit the bull’s-eye every time, it is vital to activate the right arm trust at the precise moment when your right foream comes in line with the aiming point.

Why ?

Imagine a 4 barrel hitting as a Hit Stroke initially propelled by centrifugal force (active right shoulder throw + pressure on #4).
In that motion, technically speaking, the Launching Pad of the hitter is STILL THERE but is spinning as a flywheel :shock: instead of staying still.

It implies that timing is crucial and that you must drive against your right shoulder (spinning!!!) at the precise moment when your right forearm comes in line with the aiming point (usually the ball).

Of course, it's easier if your right elbow is set in a punch condition (but no problem here because it's a hit stroke!).

Yodeli

Thanks for commenting.

It certainly makes sense that a four barrel hitting stroke requires more timing than a triple barrel stroke, because PA#1 has to launch from a right shoulder which is in a state of active motion. That's presumably why a four barrel hitting stroke may only work well for certain hitters.

I presume that you made typo mistake when you said that the right elbow must be in a push position (rather than a punch position) because a push action (10-3-C) is not used in a full hitting stroke.

Jeff.

4 barrel rewards?
 

Oops, you are right, I corrected it!

Comming back to 4 barrel: have you tried it?
Do you feel it difficult to do?
If the gain was so little as stated by Homer why Ted (the Hitter's poster's boy) would be using it instead of 3 barrel?

My intuition is that maybe it is easier to do as it seems and maybe the rewards are greater than Homer thought?

Yodeli

I am new to TGM and although I have tried the hitting technique I do not have a good hitting technique - I am therefore not sufficiently well-informed to comment on the pros and cons of a four barrel hitting action. Hopefully, accomplished hitters (like Ted) will comment on the pros and cons of a four barrel hitting action.

Jeff.

will do
 

We're doing family things, today. So, I'll try to offer my 2 cents a little later...

Thanks
 

Thanks in advance Ted, we really enjoy your insights.

(Wondering what a Hitter could do on his WeekEnds? Probably taking care of his garden, digging around with his right arm to plant flowers with his family? How cute! :laughing9 )

carbon debits
 

My 3 year old and I were chopping trees down with axes. A company that sells carbon debits for $5 promises to chop down a tree for every purchase. They had to get someone to do it, so they hired me and my son. :liar: 114 trees fell today. :liar:

They asked if I knew any Swingers that could help. But, I told them that it might take too long for them to chop the trees down with their silk scarves. And, don't give me the speech about how fast the scarf can move!

genius, yes...prophet, maybe not
 

I don't know if Homer could see the future of golf equipment and golf courses. We've played courses in our Section events as long as 7800 yards. I know that the equipment has changed dramatically, but 6800 yards was long at one time. In our world, having distance is a great asset. I've got a course within miles of my house that's close to 8000 yards. There are three fairways that are unreachable, with a north-easterly wind. It's awesome for a masochist like me. I'd use six barrels if I had them.

In the audio from the Master's classes, Homer spoke more than once about the Swinger's Start Down being advantageous for both Swingers and Hitters.

In my own stroke, I love to feel the additional stretching of the right triceps (bending of the arm) in the Start Down, before the shortening of the triceps (straightening of the arm) in Release. It feels to me like a Major League pitcher. There's an obvious Pivot. Then there's a blast off of the Right Arm.

I like to use this analogy:

(If you've tried this, you might be a red-neck)

Someone standing on the hood of a stationary car can only jump so far.

Someone jumping from the hood of a moving car can jump farther.

The car could stop accelerating and the person could fly off.

The car can accelerate so fast the person becomes stuck to the windshield.

Great post in my opinion. When reading Mr. Kelley's thoughts on using 4 barrels I thought about whether he would have changed his mind if he saw today's equipment. It requires so much less precision in ball striking, and as Mr. YodasLuke said, power is far more important these days...

Kevin

Power Prescription
 

Kevin,

There is no reason to forego the 4-Barrel Stroke. Just use the Right Arm Throw Trigger (10-20-B) and see what you get.

Use Accumulator Combination 1-2-3 (think Drive and "Unrelenting Thrust" through Impact). Combine this Action with a Standard Pivot (10-12-A), and let the Right Shoulder take care of itself (any Active participation will qualify as #4). Also, experiment with the Non-Automatic Random Sweep Release (10-24-B) and note any difference in trajectory.

I think you will be pleasantly surprised!

:golfcart2:

Yoda,

Great information, I can't wait to give it a whirl. I really appreciate the ideas!

Kevin

It's alive!
 

I second Kevin on that.

I can Swing or Hit pretty well now, but I always felt that Swinging was easy but too "gentle" and that Hitting was very structured and accurate but lacking rotary power.

Yoda, I'm very happy you confirm that 4 barrel could be done that way:
I was never sure of that and therefore restrained myself not to do it, too afraid to put some "bad moves" into my computer!

But now, I know I can unleash the beast! :evilpumpkin: &H
Yeepee, great stuff, thanks!

Yoda - I am puzzled by post #34 and I wonder if I am misunderstanding something.

You seem to be offering advice on how to execute a four-barrel hitting action, and you stated-: "There is no reason to forego the 4-Barrel Stroke. Just use the Right Arm Throw Trigger (10-20-B) and see what you get."

I though that the Right Arm Throw Trigger is used to trigger the release of PA#1, which means that it should pertain to a triple barrel hitting action as well as a four-barrel hitting action. I thought that an "active right shoulder thrust downplane" differentiated a four-barrel hitter's action from a triple barrel hitter's action, and I cannot understand why a hitter should concentrate on a right arm throw trigger to turn a triple barrel into a four-barrel hitter's action.

I also don't understand why a hitter should experiment with a non-automatic random release. What's the purpose? I thought that a hitter should optimally delay his PA#1 release until his hands pass an imaginary line between his eyes and the ball.

Jeff.

You Have A Right Arm -- Use It
 

As I've written before in these pages, the first three editions of TGM were, in Homer Kelley's own words, ". . . a Right Arm approach to the whole game" (1-F). And the evidence of that truth is contained in the Sample Stroke Patterns incorporated into those editions. The later editions removed that bias, introduced the Basic Stroke Patterns of 12-1-0 and 12-2-0, and encouraged students to come to their own conclusions. For the record, Homer himself was an avowed "hitting aficionado".

Now, Jeff, to your post. It is a wonderful thing to understand, for example, the inner workings of an automobile's drive train, transmission and carburetor. But, sometimes, for those interested only in driving the car -- not building or repairing it -- it is enough to be told to "step on the gas pedal and steer".

This was one of those times.

Before you indulge your admirable intellectual curiosity further, please just do the simple things I've advised.

Then, tell me what the ball says.

:salut:

wisdom
 

Wise counsel...

But, as an aside, I appreciate his earlier bias. :)

Now, this is power!
 

Pleasantly surprised indeed!

Yoda, I managed to do as you advised, and it worked nicely :) .
As expected there is a real gain in power: It produces the same distance as with Swinging out of my shoes with a ton of lag pressure in it BUT with less energy.
This gives a feel of control. Maybe because you don't leave the shot to centrifugal force alone.

Speaking of control, I played with the Non-Automatic Random Sweep Release (10-24-B): If I delay the release very late in the shot, I end up with a huge amount of thrust! -> even more power and a violent sound of compression on the ball! Unbelievable! :shock:

I believe it happens because by delaying the release very late, the right arm stays loaded, the right shoulder is low and there is a lot of right arm to drive the ball to china!

So, if the shot requires a lot of thrust, delay the right arm throw to the maximum and for a softer shot, trigger the right arm throw earlier.

I may add that it is also very important to use ACC#4 with a slow start down to prevent some sort of throwaway. It may be related to what Yoda said: think Drive and "Unrelenting Thrust" through Impact.

A short backswing is also better (Notice that the last 2 points are Hitter's caracteristics).


However I wonder what kind of trajectory a 4 barrel stroke facilitates (draw/fade)?
I tend to think that it is a angled hinge, thanks to the right arm thrust BUT I often got a slight draw...(even with wedges!) maybe centrifugal force has something to do with that? :-k