Paul Azinger & Tom Watson comment on The Right Side
 

For all you hitters out there, a quote from todays coverage.

While viewing slow motion playback of KJ Choi's follow through after impact;

Paul Azinger - "Look how his right arm goes right over the top of his left. All these guys just pound the ball with their right side, their right arm, their right hand. They really get all the way through it. If anyone's telling you to pull with your left, they're telling you wrong."
Tom Watson - "Thats right. Jack Nicklaus said, from the top just hit as hard as you can with your right side. If your left side is moving at all, you can, you'll catch up."
:happy3:

Bubba said he wants to swing his arms as hard as he can.

Selective Learning
 

Thanks for transcribing these quotes, AndyR. I heard this exchange today and both agreed and disagreed with the analysis.

Paul Azinger:

"Look how his right arm goes right over the top of his left."

Finish Swivel. Cool.

"All these guys just pound the ball with their right side, their right arm, their right hand. They really get all the way through it."

Right Hand #3 Pressure Point Lag Pressure. In fact, the TGM motto: "Sustain the Lag." Especially when the comment comes from someone who has spent his entire golfing life with a Turned Left Hand on the Club and going 'knuckles up' through Impact, I totally understand.

"If anyone's telling you to pull with your left, they're telling you wrong."

Tell me you throw with your right side from the top, Paul. Please, just tell me that, and I, along with your long time teacher, John Redman will just go away. :crybaby: [See hg's Post #2, Frame #10 here http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...457#post54457]

Tom Watson:

"Thats right. Jack Nicklaus said, from the top just hit as hard as you can with your right side. If your left side is moving at all, you can, you'll catch up."

Actually, Jack said that "Once you have moved to your left side, you can't release too soon." Even that can be a stretch, e.g., Snap Releases, but still it ain't the same as hitting from the top with the right side. And that is exactly what the average guy does (which is why he is average).

Enjoy the performers from their perch in the booth. Especially their anecdotes and insights on the difficulties the players face. But please . . .

Be very careful applying their 'Feels' and platitudes to your game.

:salut:

I just mute the sound when watching the super slow motion swings they talk about.

For me, I liked how the quotes express personal preference for, and confirmation of, Homer's teaching from a hitters perspective, rather than any kind of slam on swinging. I love the power of driving my right arm through the ball/plane line.

One of my favorite Yoda quotes.

Homer only looked at the pictures for truth, he didn't think their explainantions reflected what they were doing. Perhaps more true today. Azinger observes a finish swivel and tells us that it is right hand hitting is just plain sad. Any left side pulling can perform a finish swivel the same way.
Lynn- you NAILED it.

Now you will have because of Azinger and Watson- "unprincipaled" (lacking the imperatives) golfers with severe right hand throw away.

These guys are why my lesson business keeps growing. Although it amazes and un-nerves me at the same time to listen to these guys explain what they think or feel should be going on in the golf swing.

Both of these men are fine players, but there comments about the swing are vague and incomplete.

Thankfully, Homer Kelley took an objective view to the analysis of the golf swing. Basing his conclusions on Physics and Geometry rather than Feel, subjective opinion or conjecture.

Yes- not putting Paul or Tom down but all the so-called swing gurus the networks pair with the slo-mo camera will keep you in business for a long time.

So what does KJ do?
 

Is he hitting? The results are usually pretty good.

Boss Left Wrist
 

Through Impact, Hitting or Swinging, the Left Wrist (10-18-0) is responsible for the Hinge Action (7-10/18 ); the Finish Swivel (2-G); and maintaining the alignments of the Left Arm Flying Wedge (6-B-3-0-1) and its Rhythm (1-L #8 / 6-B-3-0 / The Glossary).

Only when the Left Wrist is fully in command can the Right Forearm Flying Wedge (Right Forearm and #3 Pressure Point) Deliver with abandon its Lag Pressure Load into Impact (Major Basic Stroke / 7-3).

:)

K.J. Choi Revealed
 

Study here http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...oi#post5047 9. Especially Posts #12, #16, #18 and #20.

For what it's worth, nobody in golf has ever had this information or made use of such comparisons. Save the file . . .

It is important stuff.

:)

Feels of the pro's
 

Talking about the top players and their strange feels what do you make of Paddy's

http://www.golf.com/golf/gallery/art...8457-3,00.html

Although not complete or totally clear, I was more excited than frustrated by Azingers comments. He tells us how to or what might perform an action ("pound the ball"), and, in the process, he leaves no room for an active left arm.
That is, if anyone's telling you to pull with your left, in order to "pound the ball", they're telling you wrong.

Pull with your left to start the gyroscope (if swinging), but don't activate the left to "pound the ball." Left should be inert. Through impact left hand doesn't perform, but only is maintained in certain postions (left does not perform or cause hinge action).

Being a golfer that focuses on pure right sided thoughts (just like my tennis swing and just like my baseball swing) I found Azingers comments quite refreshing.

But let's keep a few things in mind. This wasn't a few mindless wannabes like Kostis making these comments, these are two legends of the game making these comments. They both made millions from this game before you could be a player in the bottom third of the world rankings and make a million dollars a year. They both have probably dug more balls out of the dirt than any of us could ever hope to. They both have probably run every swing theory up and down the flag pole based on their association with the rest of the games greats..yet we have the nerve to rely on quoting the book by verse when we have two CHAMPIONS giving us their views based on real world experience?!

If this is making lesson books overflow with gold...then more power to ya. It just seems like sometimes people act like Homer is the only person in the world who can describe anything related to the golfswing.

E.

Major Disconnect
 

So . . .

The Right Hand does it all.

:rolleyes:

In piano music, there is treble cleft (right hand) and bass cleft (left hand). Each hand plays their respective parts, and the result is MUSIC. You would have us believe that, in golf, the left hand plays the part of the deaf mute.

I strongly disagree.

Buh Bye
 

My post stands on its own merit.

Regarding your personal attack, your name says it all.

Fall in behind 'Deadly Scope' elsewhere, and . . .

Get off my site.

Buh bye
 

Mr. Blake,

Please ban me too.

Although I have found TGM invaluable in my continuing study of the game of golf, and I believe it is an important piece in the overall picture, I also believe it is only a piece.

I think there are many ways to make a golf stroke. I think there are many ways to describe these strokes and teach them. While I may disagree with many teachers, methods and theories, and I may be partial to others, I do acknowledge that some people have gotten extraordinary results with methods or theories that I find lacking. I think there is always something new to learn about the game of golf, and sometimes ideas different from our own can be the most illuminating.

I also think this is an exciting time for the study of the golf swing, as technological advances are allowing insights into golf swing mechanics like never before and many bright minds are doggedly studying these mechanics with real world data in hand.

I have learned a lot from you and this site's members, and for that I thank you. However, I find this site's intolerance to any ideas other than it's own particular TGM interpretation to be limiting.

I don't think I am the type of disruptive element you want for your little Yellow colored world, where there is a hitter lurking under ever rock. To be safe, you had better ban me as well.

Hit 'em long and straight,

Clay

Clay...Clay...Clay
 

Clay,


Jim flick (in GD article, I think) mentioned that the great Jack Nicklaus maintained that he (Nicklaus) had never observed a good player address the ball with a closed clubface (what most people think is square.) Nicklaus angled the clubface open himself (although he advocates in his instructional volumes that we the golfing public keep it square - but in reality closed etc. Obviously he (JN) is referring to what HK articulated in 2-J-1 when discussing Impact Alignments. My point? As great as Jack Nicklaus is he failed "us" in his explanation. Paul Azinger and Tom Watson were discussing the use of the "right side" in a very generalized, and perhaps personal way. Some can derive benefit from it, most will misinterpret because it was not well articulated in the first place. The teacher by definition has the gift of communication, with a vernacular that comes as close as possible in describing reality. Zinger was dealing in "seems as if", a very subjective approach. If you do not understand that then you are not seeking the truth as it relates to golf. TGM does not support The Way, but it does teach you to correctly identify, quantify and communicate with undeniable precision My Way. In my estimation nobody did a better job at describing "what is" as it relates to the golf stroke. It seems as if some people bristle at the hint of objectivity and absolutes. In reality, most people are just too bone idle lazy to learn the vocab, and just think Homer used an english dictionary.

I for one am very happy that Yoda stays true to Homer's intention. If you really want to "understand" and appreciate snow...speak to an eskimo! If you want to understand the golf stroke...listen to Lynn. :salut:

Mr Blake i think the point was that the left hand is a "holding" hand and controlling the clubface at impact whilst the right hand releases hard against it so no matter it has a huge part to play
As to hinging action this is only a reaction in a golf swing and can also be controlled by how the upper body is rotated or by how a player wishes to release the right hand/arm
For that matter so is a finish swivel just a reaction

As for Homer Kelley i believe he got a lot correct particularly geometry part but as technology advances you can bet that sections will be disproven
His physics was so so and lets face it he was not much of an athlete nor was he an expert on human biokenitics and there are lots of unexplored areas in this department

Point is I never close my mind of to any theory since I have the capacity to implement them and discard them if they don't work for me
I hope i don't get Banned for stating this Mr Blake

Wow! Lost all my respect for you with that one. Enjoy YOUR site.

E.

cheap Shot
 

As to hinging action this is only a reaction in a golf swing and can also be controlled by how the upper body is rotated or by how a player wishes to release the right hand/arm

I am curious what geometry, or physics (the so-so variety will suffice) you can produce to substantiate the above quote. Pretending that there is a hinge embedded in my left shoulder, vertical to one of the three planes works quite well! I am curious what principle of TGM has technology managed to debunk up until now. I really want know. I was shushed a while back when I tried to inquire about the guy that had Manzella frothing at the mouth... Dr. Z. There may be an odd thing here or there that may beg better description, but I think the Three Impertives are unasailable...everything else...who gives a flip.

The left is subtle, the right is powerful. Geometry (L) and Physics (R).

House Rules
 

In the 3 1/2 years since the founding of LynnBlakeGolf.com, we have published more than 50,000 posts in more than 5,500 threads. The subject matter and opinion contained therein is widely diverse and encompasses virtually every facet of the game. We even have an entire forum -- The Lab -- devoted to the exploration of new frontiers in golf. Except on rare occasion to remove profanity, vulgarity, vicious personal attacks or unacceptable links, not a word has been deleted from these tens of thousands of posts, nor has a dime been charged to read them.

So, there is substantial evidence that, not only am I tolerant of divergent views, I actually encourage their expression and personally finance their distribution. At the same time, I am growing increasingly intolerant of those who belittle the work and opinions of others. And when that derision is directed at this site and the work we do, my tolerance now approaches zero.

This was the mistake DukeNasty made. My beef with him had absolutely nothing to do with his opinions or views. It had everything to do with his blatant disrespect of ours.

What I find amusing in your post -- and his, too -- is that, before I came along, nobody talked about Hitting, certainly not as a viable alternative to Swinging. It seemed that the concept had died with Homer Kelley. In fact, I was accused and criticized in some quarters as "selling hitting". It is a fact that I have written hundreds of posts examining and explaining the hitting concept in its many dimensions. This is not 'selling'; this is educating.

Now, you accuse me of exactly the opposite, that I would find "disruptive" the contributions of all those hitters "lurking under every rock" of my "little yellow colored world" (still yellow, but not quite so "little" anymore: 5,677 registered members, 52 countries, etc.). This is ludicrous on its face. Besides, why would hitters lurk under rocks when we have an entire Forum devoted to Hitting and a moderator who is perhaps its most widely professed proponent?

We do agree on one thing: The Golfing Machine is only a piece in golf's fascinating puzzle. There are countless websites devoted to the various other pieces. We are devoted to this one.

And the record shows that nobody does it better.

:salut:

Sorry maybe not clear. My thoughts are a hinge or a door does not move unless acted on. The hinge is definitely a necessary assembly. In piano playing, the muscles in your left hand fingers and left foremarm are causing action. In golf, these muscles are not causing action, the important assembly is acted upon (right being the piston, ativated by muscular or centrifugal force). Certainly open at all times to any corrections or explanations, as my purpose is to, at times, put my understandings "out there" as food for thought. Left hand not the part of the deaf mute when it comes to feel (of various hinge actions), but left arm is the deaf mute to the extent that a piece of rope plays the mentioned role in "pounding the ball").

I for one find it very difficult swinging with my "right side".I could name any number of players who clearly start their downswing "from the feet"and end up blasting their right side as a result of "chain reaction".

Azinger repeated the comment several times during the tournament,guess he was a hitter.The same guy, incidentally,once said of Tigers swing, "look how his hips generate the clubhead speed"

Hardly" all right side" ! :confused1

Why are Hips ever mentioned in a golfswing analysis ? I don't see the relevance at all since they are 2 joints that do nothing unless moved by something else.
BTW Hula Hula is done by using your feet

Yes and No. Yes, the golf stroke starts from the bottom up and the feet (platforms) then Knees (anchors) start the down stroke but the Hip Motion via a Hip Action is very relevant. Hula Hula is an INDEPENDENT yet coordinated movement of the Hips and Shoulders- its key objective is the maintain a center head and keep the geometric circle as true as possible. Swaylessness. There is a much that the hips do after the feet start the downstroke. If there wasn’t, our footjoys would be gripping the club. All motion is connected so it is also safe to say the feet move the shoulders and the hands. But NO, because much occurs between actions.

Turning the hips
 

Azinger studied under John Redman. He teaches a turn in the barrel swing with the hips. This swing you can clearly see in Bobby Jones swing. In addition the club is to be swinging as defined by Ernest Jones. This is a 100% swinging action. Before I had my physical issues I found it to be a effective method to swing the club. I could think turn hips and have no problem doing that. I did not concern myself with the feet and the knees to make this move even though they did move.

I believe what Azinger was trying to say was you do have 2 hips and the right hip is the trailing hip and it is turning as well so that results in the right side of the body being used.

As for the finish swivel since Redman basically taught a strong grip he prefered a angled hinge to avoid hooks and have a preference for a fade pattern. Many of the strong grip swingers do this Couples etc.

Hope this helps.

Dave

Homer’s book wasn’t supported by false instinct. Homer methodically observed and reproduced the motion and action of the golf stroke and was able to coordinate an explanation. It is hard to contradict his research because right or wrong, it is a compelling argument.
Tour golfers are blessed and gifted. Few are golf stroke engineers that can whittle away the vast “seems reasonableness” of how their stroke feels to them. Nor should they.
Im sorry that this thread got out of hand. I don’t think anyone thought it would. You have always been a supported of TGM and a Ted's friend.

I wonder if Azinger's left hand lays that way naturally (and is therefore a correct grip for him, I think) or he does it by choice?

Azinger grip
 

As per my redman post that is how Redman teaches the grip. Hang your left arm relaxed and grip the club without any forearm rotation in either direction.

Dave

Paul Azinger And John Redman
 

Right you are, Davel.

Paul Azinger came to John Redman's driving range in 1979 with his Left Hand Turned to Plane -- the classic super-strong grip (the thumb-forefinger "V" pointing outside the right shoulder -- and John never changed it. At that time, Paul was a freshman in junior college having a hard time making the golf team -- "I had never broken 70 and seldom broke 80 two days in a row." Three years later he was on the PGA TOUR, and eight years later, was named PGA TOUR Player of the Year.

:shock:

Read all about Paul's journey and the techniques that took him to the top in John's book, John Redman's Essentials Of The Golf Swing. The 'remaindered' market for the book is very buyer-friendly at the moment: Some very valuable information is between hard covers and can be yours for only a penny -- $0.01 -- and shipping charges. http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi...7029824&sr=1-1

All that said, I dare say that Paul's 'hanging arm grip' would be decidedly less Turned to the right, i.e., more "neutral" (Rolled to the left). To show as many knuckles as Paul does, that left shoulder has to have a pretty severe 'anterior rotation' (a term I've learned from our own Vickie Lake). Thanks, Vickie.

Long story short (and using TGM terms for the benefit of the many members engaged in that study), what happened was that Paul brought to the table a Strong Double Action Grip (10-2-D / Left Wristcocking Motion on the same line as the Right Wrist Bend) and, with John's help, learned to use his Pivot (10-12-A / Standard Action) to originate and control Clubhead Power (10-4-D / 4 Barrel). Along the way, he learned to use Angled Hinging (10-10-C / Right Palm Paddle Wheel Action and No Roll Feel) to control the Clubface Alignment through Impact (or, as John would say, "No forearm rotation and knuckles up!").

And the rest, as they say, is history.

:)

This is what LBG is all about.

Grip question
 

A friend I play with has, what I now know is called, a severe 'anterior rotation'.

When his arms hang naturally, the backs of his hands are parallel to the target line. (I promise, he does have opposable thumbs.):laughing1

What do you feel would be the ideal grip for him?

Sounds like Redman helped to UNLOCK Azingers talent...a fine hitter at that.

DG

Compensating Anterior Shoulder Rotation
 

I understand that PGA TOUR player Tim Clark http://www.pgatour.com/players/02/31/35/ has a similar problem. In his case, an elbow deficiciency severely limits his ability to rotate his Left forearm, so much so that, as he says, "I can't even get my change at the drive-through". In his case, he just goes with the flow and plays with the super-strong Turned Left Hand. Seems to work!

I'd have to see the situation in person, but it sounds as if your friend should do the same. By the way, there are specific exercises that can help immensely to reverse the condition and produce physical benefits far beyond swinging a golf club. We will introduce them in the forum Fit For Golf With Vickie Lake. I know she can help us here:

I'm on the program!

:)

Paul On John
 

That's right, DG. The teacher is not God and thus cannot inject talent where there is none. But, he is able to help his student make the most of what is there, and that is an important contribution. Here's Paul Azinger's comment on the subject:

"Sure, I had some some God-given talent and I practiced hard, hitting hundreds of balls ever day, but John gave me excellent instruction. He recognized that my swing was too long and 'flippy' at the top. So the first thing we worked on was shortening my swing. Then he taught me how to use my legs and hips and how to turn level both back and through. That's a big part of his teaching. He also taught me to keep my hands and arms relaxed and to feel the weight of the club head on the end of the shaft.

John made a lot of changes to my swing, but the one thing he didn't change was my grip. I play with what many people call a strong grip. With most teachers, it wouldn't have lasted long. But, fortunately, John had the insight not to change it. He said that grip was natural for me, and that's how he wanted me to hold the club.

It's one thing to take an excellent golfer, make some adjustment to his stance, his ball position or some such, and marginally improve his play for a few weeeks. There are a lot of teachers who can do that. There aren't many, however, who can take someone as mediocre as I was and in three years have him playing the Tour. But that's exactly what John Redman did."

There are few relationships as complex -- or as fragile -- as that of player and coach. Since the teacher is not the performer, it is easy to limit his contribution to "informs and explains". But there is much more:

He listens.

He advises.

He encourages.

He inspires.

And, most of all . . .

He believes in advance.

:salut:

And not to be sexist (although I know lot of women who like that kind of thing-:) ). Women tend to stand at attention with the insides of their elbows parallel to the target line- palms out. Men much shut. Biceps not triceps if lifting a bar.

which move what?:confused1

The hips get mentioned because their moving forward is a big part of creating axis tilt which allows the hands stay IN rather than being drug OUT off the plane as a result of the shoulders spinning early.

Hula Hula is simply the hips moving INDEPENDENT of the shoulders . . . some to do with feet but more to do with the spine and moving the center of the hip turn toward the target while keeping the head fixed . . .

Per Homer . . .

7-14 HIP TURN The Hip Turn as a Stroke Component is strictly the product of the Knee Bend and the Waist Bend. Not otherwise could the weight be shifted and the Shoulder Turn Axis be tilted without moving the Head. A Hula Hula flexibility allows the Hips and Shoulders to be independent but coordinate and so avoid Right Elbow – and – Hip interference and its “Roundhousing” Throwaway (4-D-0) during the Start Down – the Delivery Line ROLL PREPARATION (12-3-22).

Except for its being, in itself, the Weight Shift, the Hip Turn is a motion permitting – rather than causing – the other effects, actions and motions of the Pivot. Weight Shift is strictly a HIP MOTION. Substituting a Head Motion and/or Knee Motion will make Swaying inevitable.

The Hip Turn can be used to control or modify Hip Action Variations and prevent Zone #1 (9-1) exaggerations. See 2-N and 7-16.

7-15 HIP ACTION The Hip Action Category is included to separate the “motion” of the Hips form any work they may accomplish.

The work the Hip Action does, is to lead and pull the Shoulder back and down in varying combinations. This has very valuable applications. Forgetting to shift the weight to clear the Right Hip is difficult if the Hips are initiating the Shoulder Turn – in either direction. Study 2-N and 7-3. With Swingers using the Arc of Approach (2-J-3), this actuation may be executed as a “throwing” of the Right Shoulder by the Hips as in 10-19-C.

Hip Action must not be haphazard. It is a Pivot Component that must be carefully timed and sequenced to sustain the continuity and spacing of the Pivot Train (of Components). Omitting the Hip Action unintentionally will disrupt the Feel as well as the continuity of the entire Pivot. See 6-B-3-O regarding Pivot Rhythm.