Talkin' Tiger
 

While we are investigating the nature of Tiger's injuries and surgical options and choices, I would like to know how everyone is reacting to the "stuff" being whispered outloud by the masses.

Some have said:

"Tiger was faking it because he could jump around when he hit a good shot and only limped when he hit a ball less successfully."

"If the injury were that bad why has he waited so long to get the surgery."

"How could his rehabilitation have possibly created stress fractures and why didn't they know that before he went to The Open?"

"Oh yeah, he's hurt (note the sarcasm); did you see him falling down on his 'bad knee' in glee?"

"If his condition was so bad, why didn't he tell anyone until after he won?"

"He injured himself because of the shear power of his swing."

"This guy has the best trainers and doctors available. What chance does anyone else have at avoiding golf related injuries."

"Tiger probably hurt himself because of his workout program. How else could he have bulked up so much? He used to be scrawny"

"He's got plenty of money and fame. What would make someone take such a risk?"

So, we have all heard and read the plethora of comments, speculations, and criticisms, just try to avoid them. Add your own list of public comments and/or respond to any (or all) of these and let us know what you think. I have opinions and anatomical insight to share but I will let the respondents take the lead.

I will be on daily to see if anyone wants to play. When we get some REAL data I will offer a full over view. I will also talk about ways to avoid or correct the precussors for these problems.

It ain't the sport folks.

Vik

I saw limited coverage of his play but noted that there may be some truth to the apparent inconsistency in "illness behaviour" that Tiger demonstrated.

Not so much it was :-

bad shot=ouch..my sore knee

good shot = no problem

Actually more variable than that ...I am sure somebody will have a video of this behaviour on Youtube soon ...Tiger is never off the screen!

The question that then arises is "does a real injury always lead to demonstrable pain behaviour on every shot?" ....answer = no.

So "does variable/inconsistent pain behaviour prove that he was faking it" ...answer = no.

Let us see the MRI :laughing9

But if that left knee is really going for surgery number four then I think that Tiger has peaked in terms of his "power golf" swing...but he might come back with his version of "modern Fundamentals" swing...less power , more precision...and I would not put it past him to try left handed so that he can use his right knee!!

There are questions about the timing of this incident with drug testing coming in...always a murky topic... one which Tiger would do well to silence by what might be seen as "out of season" testing right now.

On Wounded Knee
 

Thanks for starting this thread, Vickie. Should be interesting!

:salut:

I don't believe Tiger was 'fakin' it', but I gotta admit, every time he went down on his knee, I couldn't help but think, "What's going on here?" And the subsequent revelation of "double stress fractures" of the shin bone have only added to the mystery.

:scratch:

I look forward to your insights.

Left Foot
 

I did not see the Golf Channel explanation but a pro friend
said that the Golf Channel fellow showed that Tiger came
through follow through by spinning on the ball of his left
foot putting stress against the left leg. Where as Hogan and Nicklaus both bowed the left leg and let the weight go to the outside of the left foot.
Maybe somebody that saw the footage can relay the real story.

Short steps to the Truth
 

I appreciate the posts. And I think anyone interested in golf or sports in general are asking questions and making up answers. I am no more privileged than anyone else in terms of knowing the details of Tiger's pathology. But there are some thoughts I want to share as we investigate with a cloudy microscope.

Tiger is in incredible physical condition. Period. Forget the physique that makes him a formidable physical specimen, and I mean that in the professional sense. Higher levels of fitness and health raise the ability of athletes to perform under very difficult conditions and typically to perform longer with developing injuries and also to recover more efficiently and often sooner than us average folk. So . . . Tiger could have waited on his surgery for a lot of reasons but the most obvious to me is that the recovery for ACL surgery will be longer, more arduous and mysterious in terms of the effect on his career.

Oddly enough Golf is not considered a high risk activity for the anterior cruciate ligament. The inflammation caused by injury, however, is a great pain activator. The fact is there is more vulnerability to the symptoms an ACL tear when the knee is straightened, hyperextended, twisted, or bent to the side as we see in walking and shifting weight to the left leg in the golf swing; it's obvious that his new foot rotation was a way to minimize these effects of his follow through.

Interestingly enough, while there is a forward shift in the tibia when the knee is straightened completely this is not the case when the knee is bent. Oh initially bending the knee is risky but after about 30 degrees the tibia realigns with the femur in a correct relationship. The symptoms that are incurred in walking and swinging are no longer inherent in the kneeling position.

I will only hint at the powerful effects of mental toughness but will strongly suggest that the adrenaline that must pump through your body when you make a shot that contributes to a win must be more profound than when you get excited over your dog sitting on command. Adrenaline is a great, natural pain masking chemical that is manufactured honestly; you can't fake it or force it. Have you ever had an injury or illness that made you incapable of moving and suddenly you reacted to something you see quickly out of the corner of your eye . . . for that second you didn't feel anything and then you catch yourself and yowsa! the pain rushes in like a strong north wind? Think about it.

And back to mental toughness, how many athletes do we know that work through the pain? Heck, I know a lot of recreational golfers that play weekly even though they have chronic back or shoulder pain. Of course, that is before they meet me; shameless plug. I ran the Peachtree Road Race once with a sprained ankle; yeah, there was money on the table. I was slower but competitive with a steady gait. Steady until I had to avoid another runner who darted across my very intentional straight path. At that point I would roll just slightly in the ankle and would limp for about ten steps, grimacing to keep from crying, until the ankle was soundly aligned and steady again until the next time. I don't know if it was the bet or my pride that got me through it but everytime I passed a mile marker I got a spirt of energy. I paid a price by slowing my recovery and I was lucky not to have created a bigger problem but it was worth it. I promise my prize winnings were not as public or profitable as Tiger's and I wouldn't take it back for a minute.

Ok, that's just a start. The stress fracture will have to wait till the next post. I know there are some PT's and othopedic specialists on this site that will hopefully share some experience.

Tiger the best golfer of all time? Tiger best athlete? I don't know about either position but I do know that the boy turned man before our eyes keeps people talking on and off the greens.

Let's talk more.

Vik

From the Locker Room
 

Great post, Vickie. I'm reading and learning. Thanks!

Anybody out there with an injury similar to (or, better yet, identical with) Tiger's? If so, do tell.

For the rest of us . . . post your thoughts!

Not only is this thread topical, it also can help us 'weekend warriors' avoid injury in the pursuit of our favorite sport.

:salut:

Tiger's knee
 

I experienced both anterior and posterior ligament damage as well as cartilage damage and replacement due to a severe football injury in high school. As a result of that damage and subsequent problems over the years (arthritic spurs, miniscus tears, etc.) I have had to learn to play around this issue.
Because the injury was to the left knee I have learned to play with a rotation of the left foot outward in varying degrees, depending on flexibility and or pain. Turning the left foot outward reduces the torque on the left knee and allows me to stand on the left side at finish without pain or undue stress.
Although I have only dreamed of playing at Tiger's level, I have enjoyed the game for 50+ years since that injury and still do to this day!
I wondered why Tiger never stumbled across turning the left foot outward and thereby preclude the necessity of spinning on the left foot? I realize that the outward turn could reduce hip rotation to the right but a preset could offset that. In any event, at his level of ability I am sure he could have worked through it.
I wish him well in his recovery and look forward to his successful return.

Wading through
 

Bond007 has certainly suffered enough to ask some tough questions. Considering Tiger's accessibility to trainers and biomechanical investigative resources, I must assume he had a plan for his various adaptations to his golf swing. The fact, at this point with so little accurate medical information, is that Tiger has been experiencing some level of deterioration to the knee, certainly, since 1994 when he had his first knee surgery to remove a benign cyst. Fluid associated with knee issues are indicators of soft tissue problems. The very necessary valgus positioning in any adjusted golf swing keeps the knee in a vulnerable state. Professional athletes are slow to reveal their various health problems, all of which contribute to changes in the way they play their sport. I am trying to unearth a variety of problems including some back problems Tiger has suffered over the years. The reports are vague and inconsistent but I believe not all of his swing changes were just about getting more accuracy. I think if we knew all the details of his physiology we would be even more impressed with his ability to command such a presence in the sport. I would say that his combination of love of golf and physical injuries contributed greatly to his committment to a training program that has kept him in the game at all.

I have to Admit
 

Tigers injury was front and center for most of the tournament and he either played it up for drama purposes, and/or it was real.

I was fixated on every shot as a result. Yes, I'm a sucker for good TV drama.

He made it look real (on the bad shots) and frankly, I still believe he was in pain. How much pain, it's hard to know...

He's out for the season and maybe its something he is looking forward to. Maybe this was planned months or years in advance. After all, he has a young family and he's been hard at it for years. Sometimes to get through to the next level you have to take a break.

How many personal coaches other than golf does this guy have?
Mental
Physical
Medical
Media
Financial
Philanthropy
etc
etc

In other words - It's all part of the plan.

Drama or True and Good Reality TV
 

Bagger, You always raise the bar! Quickly I just want to say that Tiger couldn't pick a worse or better time for a break. This will be a great time to have with his young family for sure but I wouldn't want to trade places with him on the rehabilitation front. This surgery will test even the most Herculean athlete, and I think we could have said Tigerlean. The physical pain will be substantial on it's own, but then redesigning all of the stroke movements will really test his mission. Then there is the uncertainty of the surgery, the outcome and then the effect on his short term and long term career. I heard someone, in the post office of all places, sarcastically state that "he" should be satisfied with his fame and fortune and just take his money and run. I could not keep my mouth shut and turned with my best southern belle smile and asked the gentleman if he played golf. He said, and I am not kidding this is a quote, "Well no little lady, I don't seem to have time for the game". So dripping polite venom I replied, "I am so sorry. That must be why you don't understand either the passion or the heart these players bring to the game so that even people who don't understand it can be entertained and have something to talk about". Thank goodness it wasn't my post office.

There is never a good time to have surgery on critical joints but there are necessary times and I believe that Tiger put it off just as long as he could. He may have pushed his envelope at the Open but most players find a way back to the game. I think I'll bet on Mr. Woods and a fascinating future.

More later. Keep it coming.

VL...you are too cool....love your posts...and your fire. Not to discount Mr. Hogan's accident and his near death experience...but I see Tiger's career now being compared similar to Mr. Hogan's in terms of before and after his accident and Tiger pre- and post-surgery. It will be interesting to see how his swing evolves and like Mr.Hogan if Tiger becomes post-surgery even a better ball striker where distance will take a back seat to accuracy. Many years from now Tiger may be remembered more for his post surgery swing and his greater dominance on the Tour. I am expecting a more improved Tiger after surgery...as difficult as that is to imagine.:)

For what its worth, I have a reconstructed ACL, right knee (target side knee as I am left handed). I had a completely torn ACL, 20+ years ago. Reconstructed Nov/06

I would have to say that the torn ACL had zero effect on my golf game. Either that or I had completely compensated without being aware of it. Certainly there was no pain. And as a younger adult, the muscles around the knee provided enough stability that the ACL tear was all but unnoticable.

Post ACL reconstruction, a bit of pain and discomfort but more from the trauma of the surgery rather than structural knee pain. I had a patellar tendon autograft - there is some residual pain when kneeling - and maybe some minor stiffness after walking 18 holes, carrying clubs. But in terms of golf....little to no impact. I can't even recall one instance of pain caused by a hard, awkward, or off balance swing.

Who knows what other damage is present in Tiger's knee. But in my opinion the ACL reconstruction will stabilize and pressumably reduce the risk of other complications.

3putt

From the Grandstands
 

Great info, 3Putt. Thanks!

Let's keep digging here, guys.

Despite our lack of a ringside seat, there's no telling what we'll unearth . . .

:salut:

Quite a few years ago, Tiger used to snap his left knee straight close to impact when he needed extre power. That was probably not the healthiest trick of the game ...

Beyond what the knee can take.
 

For regular shots with reasonable lie and stance, no problem, he can handle it.

For getting the ball out of a deep rough to the green with a not so good stance, that's where the problem arises.

Beware!!

Sorry and my best wishes to Tiger.

Yay!
 

Tiger Woods had reconstructive surgery on his left knee Tuesday in Utah to repair a torn ligament, and doctors said it was “highly unlikely” there would be any long-term effects.

Let's hope so. I could do with a few more decades of his kind of golf! :happy3:

Tiger's Triumph
 

If Tiger was not such a successful athlete and still so young he might choose to retire and leave the world guessing. But the Golf stars are shining brightly and I predict that we have a lot of good Tiger play ahead of us. Many ACL injuries are not surgically corrected if a sedentary lifestyle exhists. Likewise many people walk around with undiagnosed stress fractures with much pain and complaints that eventually dwindle when the fracture heals itself and the symptoms subside. I have sent no less than four people to their doctor before I started working with them because the pain they described and the history indicated that their whole body alignment had caused enough inappropriate tension that the associated bone suffered the consequences.

So here I will pick up my usual banter and suggest that Tiger's knee problems have not been isolated to that particular joint or his golf swing. I love TGM because it teaches the most geometrically accurate application of the golf form to the human anatomy. And still I know that if the golf stance is the only request you ever require of your body it will lose it's way back to proper (neutral) balance that allows the body to be at ease.

I know it might sound arrogant in light of the number of professional trainers available to the professional players but maintaining a balance of tension is about more than how heavy or how long you train. Over and Under training are all relavent to lifestyle, activity, individual anatomy, nutrition and recovery. So often we get so focused on training the muscles associated with our sport we forget that all of the other muscles must maintain a very specific and appropriate relationship or we are creating a well intended but risky imbalance.

I hope everyone will remember that your flexibility is a part of your strength training program. But unlike all of the other methods of exercise, flexibility is associated most specifically with the soft tissue that connects muscles to bones,called the tendons or ligaments that connect bone to bone. Improvements happen in millimeters and not in the large measurements that we can see and feel. With cardiovascular work we look at speed, distance, and terrain. In strength we are looking at pounds, and numers of repetitions and sets. In diet we are looking at calories, often too many. If you stop and think a little differently about the spine you will catch my drift. The spine is really a series of 27 joints that have about a 3 degree range of motion between each one. Even though the spine has an "S" curve the vertebrae are spaced perfectly parallel to one another. However, if the curve is held in a manner that alters the natural pathway, the vertebrae lose their perfect relationship. At some point this misalignment begins to send signals that we call pain to alert some attention to the problem. Too often we treat the symptom instead of finding out where the problem started.

Muscles function in an agonist and antagonist agreement. They have two primary functions, to contract for power and to elongate to offer an appropriate equal and opposite reaction for the movement being performed. Balance your workout so that the muscles all have the same strength so they will give you all the power you want with none of the impingements that cause grief.

Oops, was I talking Tiger? Somebody get us back on line.

There are always those that don't need any proof to start speculating before propagating malicious rumours. Its the same reason why they always root for the underdog - because they are the underdogs. They do not try to get better at whatever their endevour with any real conviction but when facing someone with that conviction they have nothing but a cold hate.

Of course it doesn't help matters that he is black. It's a double whammy. It particularly denotes the mild underhanded racism that occurs within the USA - basically it is an appeal to a stereotype - that because he is black he must be doing something illegal because blacks are all criminals in the mind of many white americans.

What amazes me is that everytime drug use/testing in golf comes up, Tiger's name isn't too far behind. Now, I'm not a Tiger Woods superfan, but think about this:

1. He's only 180-185, at 6 feet tall. That is not very big at all. I doubt he would have needed steroids to get to that size. I repeat, he's not big.

2. He's been lifting for at least 10 years. I would be really disappointed if he, with his drive and resources, didn't look like he does after 10+ years of lifting weights.


Tiger's physique stands out because of his peer group. Golfers, in general, don't tend to look like he does, although that's changing. If he were in a different sport besides golf, we'd be talking about his need to put on weight, rather that making him sound like some overly muscled freak of nature. He's only 20 pounds heavier than when he came on tour. I know that sporting news in the last 5 years or so has really been pounding us with the steroid issue, especially the American favorite pastime, but it's overboard to accuse any well-built individual of using pharmaceuticals to get there. Unfortunately, that's where we are at this stage.

The following from the golf channel.

http://www.thegolfchannel.com/core.a...2-7EDC24DC3B42

TIGER’S TEST RUN
Tiger Woods is still a candidate for drug testing, even though he will not be competing the rest of the year. But he already knows what to expect, having gone through private testing.

“I’ve done it twice, actually,” Woods said.

Why did he require two tests?

Woods didn’t say when the tests were conducted, but both came back negative. After the first test was clean, he said he changed the brand of amino acid as part of his nutrition program, and wanted to make sure the change didn’t alter the results. He said the second test came back negative, too.

Intellectual Analogies
 

Whew Matthew you were passionate and unfortunately correct in your post. But I will also say, to the several thread references to Tiger and testing, that in every sport where you have a dominant player the steroid questions is always tagged to their success; atleast speculatively. Think Lance Armstrong.

Bigwill recapped what I posted earlier and anyone that knows anything about training would have to deduce eventually. While steroids mimick testosterone and, simply, tell the cells to make more muscle instead of fat it is not always a good advantage. Building muscle quickly has a tendency to excellerate the tendon development as well. A more calculated, albiet slower, training program will minimize the tendon thickening. What does that mean. If the tension of the tendon, which connects muscles to bone, is inappropriately manaed then you loose range of motion in the joints. This is very common. In an effort to increase strength the training routine negatively alters range of motion. So now you're paying a huge price, not only in your strength training workload but you have to overcompensate in your flexibility to overcome the tension you created, this is sometimes painful and always time consuming. Ahhh! Instead a strength training program that is more specific to the muscle function of your objective could be less arduous and your flexibility is maintained for alignment and recovery instead of reversing the effects of your workout.

All of that to say that for an athelete in a sport that requires enormous and explosive joint function, steroids could actually be like calling the fire department when you light a match. This, ofcourse, is highly influenced by body type and training programming. Tiger trains many hours but he is pretty mesomorphic, meaning he builds muscle easier than the tall lanky people that build slowly. Ok, everybody says "but look at him before he started, he was lanky". He was a very young man and hadn't grown into mis mature manly form.

Briefly, we always focus on the long term risks inherant in steroid use but unless you have been in an environment where different body types and personalities are using . . .you can't imagine the short term possible side effects. These effects can include, and are certainly not limited to, joint stiffness, mood swings, gastrointestinal symptoms, muscle cramping, sleep interruption . . . need I say more. Even carefully administered by a qualified medical professional this drug is hard to predict.

Also, tiger is a real supermodel in the golf field. His clothes are designed to accentuate his physique. His shirts don't showcase his deltoids only because of his development. The sleeves are actually cut to enhance the shape of his arm much like skirt length on women; ofcourse all bets are off with the mini skirt.. Tiger is young, has always been fit and lean. I think taking steroids would be an uncharastically stupid chance for Tiger to take.

Ofcourse, he didn't call me and whisper in my ear; shucks.

Vik