Pivot, hip slide and release types
 

In watching professional swings. I have noticed something.

Players with more forward hip slide on the downswing tend to have a sweepier release, while those who have little apparent hip slide look to have a snappier release.

I noticed this when we were discussing the differences between Zach & Boo.

Does the amount of hip slide on the downswing "pre-determine" the type of release we have?

What is the release sequence?

What does hip slide do?

I think you are on to something.

UPP in cold Ohio

The sequence would be releasing accumulator#2 earlier and the greater amount of hip slide is making room for the release of #2

Does more hip slide = more pivot lag?

Hold up a sec before we go there . . . you know this . . . of all 4 accumulators . . . what is the ORDER in which the fire?

4, 1, 2, 3 for Max Trigger

I am thinking #2 is unloaded earlier (more sweepy) and to accomodate this more hip slide is necessary.

Slow down Festus . . . you gotta fill the wagon up with taterz before we take 'em down the hill.

#4 goes first right? What makes it go first?

Initial thrust of the pivot i.e. pivot lag

Where is applied? And how?

Forward, by the hips. I am not sure

come on dude you know this . . .#4 pressure point . . . shoulder turn . . .

Got it, thrust is directed towards the ball, but not violently so

sort of . . . but what MOVEMENT loads the #4 pressure point?

I would say that shoulder movement against a powerpackage with inertia loads acc 4.

How about discussing the issue of balance in release and hip slide....

I think that if I slide to the target too much (weight going towards target)...then there is a natural reflex to stay in balance... and that means throwing something in the other direction to maintain your sense of balance.... and for many that means throwing the clubhead away from the target...an early release and ...probably off plane as well.... so exaccerbating balance problems...

It always fascinated mem how Hogans targetwards hip slide is combined with his hands moving away from the target... i think that this can be thought of as a balance thing... he might feel the pressure in his feet move to the left foot more than the right...but his sense of Centre of gravity - i think / hypothesise - is fairly central...maybe....

Look at Hogan at End of backswing


Note the position of his pp3 in relation to his right foot. About 2-3 inches target side of right foot instep.

Look at Hogan into his downswing move/transition finished and note his PP3 has moved about 2-3 inxhes away from the target and lies level with right instep...I think that this is balance related.


The photos were not (as far as I know) a single sequence, and so are open to critisism about camera angles etc... so...try it...do your slide and compare an "early release feel" with a "hands away from target feel"... only one of the above allows you to maintain a sense of balance into the downswing IMO...

Longitudinal acceleration...
 

Of course, this move of hands away from target is when Longitudinal pull off the shaft is most obvious...real arrow from quiver stuff... but it also maintains balance IMO...

With that big shift and all that trigger delay Hogan had to pretty much get "on top of it" and open up to keep his hands from getting stuck behind him. I know he moves right but he gets his head back to the left and opens up. If his head stayed back there he'd never get to the ball and would have to do some crazy stuff with his hands to get to low point.

After the wreck his swing tightened up and his arms seemed to work with his body better. This cat Slice Fixer made a good point about his motion. Basically his arm swing stops when his pivot stops so you don't have the arms continuing back several frames in a video. He makes the point that if your arms keep going you have to "make up those frames" by doing something compensatory. I think that is a valid point FOR THE PLANE HOGAN SWINGS ON. As fast as Hogan goes forward and left you'd think it would be critical for him to have his arms staying with his body from a timing stand point and a "connection" stand point.

That may not be the case for steep planes. Still thinking about that one.

What shoulder motion would you say expands the #4 angle? Being the master accumulator and all . . .

by expands the number 4 accumulator angle...you mean initiates release of 4?? I think that it is the slowing of right shoulder motion down plane...

Look at that video of mine... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oh184bHGkpM

why does the shaft stay near his right shoulder at the beginning of his downswing ( where shoulders go from about 100 degrees closed to about 50 degrees closed and the hands and clubhead travel equal amounts) where shoulder rotation is equal to clubhead rotation

to... shaft moving away from shoulder as the shoulders move about another 50 degress but the clubhead goes form above his head to impact.... that is the release of 4,2,3... and there is relatively little right shoulder motion during that phase of the swing... it still moves... but it is slower and still on plane....

The slowing of the right shoulder is the thing... the flywheel has spun the power package and the power package moves on as the flywheel slows ( but stays on plane)

At least that is the way I see it... mind still open to offers!

I don't understand why you think that the hands move away from the target to keep balance.

I think that Hogna's hands move away from the target because the shoulders have started to turn and that throws the clubshaft away from the target as the shoulder turns from 100 degrees to 70 degrees.

Consider a photograph of a good golfer hitting an iron -seen from above.



The figures represent the degree of torso-pelvis separation, and the degree of torso-pelvic separation decreases in the early downswing because the shoulders turn faster than the pelvis in the early downswing. Note as the right shoulder turns around that it must move away from the target, and that causes the hands to also move away from the target.

Here is the result of a study measuring many different values - and you can see that shoulder rotation speed exceeds pelvis rotation speed by the end of the early downswing (lead arm parallel to the ground).

http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/MyersTable.jpg

Regarding release of power accumulator 4, doesn't that happen from the start of the downswing - due to muscle pulling the left arm across the rotating torso as the torso rotates around in the downswing. The muscles colored in red in the following photo are the relevant muscles pulling the left shoulder socket and left arm.



I think that the clubshaft stays near the right shoulder at the start of the downswing because Hogan had very relaxed wrists and the small amount of movement of the hands at the start of the downswing has not yet affected the clubshaft which lags behind the hands.

Jeff.

Sweep vs. Max
 

This is an interesting study. I have noticed that with many of the Max Trigger Delay players, that the right shoulder stays high longer into the downswing-- Hogan, Garcia, Clampett, O'Grady... and some of the Plummer and Bennett players, like Baddeley, have some of this. One of the questions here, is how do these players get the club down to Release Point? If the right shoulder is not bringing the club down, then some other part of the Pivot is, unless they have an arm drop independent of the Pivot... either with the Straightening Right Arm, or Gravity.

What do you think?

Hold your Left Wrist with your Right Hand at the top of the Swing. Keep holding it during Startdown.
Lateral Shift to get the Right Shoulder Downplane forces the Left Shoulder Up-Plane. But if you don't let go of your Left Wrist, then your Left Arm will not come away from your chest. If you don't hold your left arm it comes away almost immediately.
Anti-Extensor action, you can hold the club up and delay letting it move away from the Right Shoulder.

Well, type of shoulder turn will make a difference.

High right shoulder into the downstroke, but not high at impact. The right shoulder still drives downplane and delivers the club to releae and impact. A couple of the players mentioned have very connected pivots, the arms and body work very much together. One has a rotated shoulder turn, and one standard.

This gets at what Bucket's been talking about with the pivot's relationship to plane angle. For example a rotated shoulder turn with a elbow plane downstroke is going to provide a right shoulder that stays higher longer. But, it doesn't stay high through impact, the arms and club still work downplane with the body. It just doesn't drop at startdown due to axis tilt.

You have also have to consider the shot desired and how the body must work to accomplish the desired trajectory and curvature.

No I think you are sniffin' on it HARD man . . . Seems to me that trigger delay can be greater if the right shoulder stays higher longer . . .BUT the key is what plane angle are you on . . . those guys you mentioned are elbow plane guys. So they kinda stay more on top of it and spin open more . . . Why plane angle . . . Hands and club have to get out more and then go in and around more. Some dudes do go elbow plane and hang back . . . Elk and Faxon would be examples. They really push their hands forward.

Look at the differences in the these two motions . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiTUW...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inC8g...eature=related

Hogan looks way more forward and right shoulder higher longer . . . more trigger delay . .. steeper angle of attack . . . flatter plane . . . more rotary . . . right shoulder goes down later . . . if it went down early he'd be stuck and too under plane and never be able to get his hands going around to the left enough to comply with the plane. Hands in and down at top . .. exit low and left but ON PLANE.


Nicklaus' shoulder goes down right from the jump . . . has to or the club will be out and over . . . head stays back . . . sweepy release . . . hands are high at top . . club exits high and hands go high

When you hold your hand up there . .. the right shoulder is staying higher Beavis.

I hope that Comdpa does not mind me using his Youtube swing as an example... but he has built his swing using TGM and has a very max trigger delay component. Comdpa knows his TGM pretty well - just do a search under his name and you get "yodic" like posts!

His right shoulder is pretty high when the shaft starts to move away from his shoulder region.... it still moves down plane.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9JN-uGuDFY

Your right shoulder stays higher the sooner you release accumulator 4.

To me that inevitably means that the power package is being pushed by the pivot for less time... but it does not mean that it can not be pushed very hard and fiercely over a small period of time before release... Hogan's instip hip turn acceleration ? maybe - or whatever Homer called it...I think that Yoda recalls Homer describing it was Hogan who inspired that concept.

Accumulator 4 releases... can i just check that i understand it correctly - is when the left upper arm moves from above the nipple line to below the nipple line... assuming youthful breast tissue ... and continues onwards towards left arm at 90 degrees to shoulder/nipple line... because at impact your left arm is pretty much at 90 degrees to your shoulders/nipple line.... so it definitely releases from above nipple line...

I take it that it is not describing the left arm coming away from the left armpit region...there is still some connection there ( although not forced).

Is that right?

So if you release 4 early....you keep right shoulder higher.... gives more time for sequencing of accumulators...less overlap...more velocity...is that right...somewhere it says more overlap more thrust...less overlap more velocity...

Some of that but the sequence is 4-1-2-3 right . . . left arm is check reign on the right elbow so if the left arm doesn't blast the angles stay longer right? So what blasts the angles? Right right shoulder right?

But this is a different deal . . . take your hands to the top deep and flat . .. push your hips forward and drop your right shoulder right off the bat . . . . . what does the club do???

Do the same thing but this time take your hands high and do the same thing what does the club do??

Considering the plane and making that move hip slide and right shoulder down which plane does it work with? If you want to stay on the plane?

Do it and talk to me.

You gotta let go that pig when trying it. :) The Right Shoulder doesn't stay Higher.

Look who is inventing terms now 8-[

I can see that my hypothesis has been shot down. I guess I am fishing for why I don't have more accumulator lag. My swing looks more like Watson/Toms and less like Weekley/Hogan......and I hate that. My swing looks decent, I've got good alignments, it just doesn't look as captivating as I think it should.

I don't care that I hit it pretty well regardless. A lot of teachers think that a small pulley max accumulator lag is unmanageable......but I want it anyway. I think it's a lot easier to dial something down as opposed to adding to in the golf swing.

Maybe this is what you’re looking for?
10-15-B
10-18-B
RFT. Must get the Right Palm facing Up. Pitch Elbow.
Keep the #4 pp (keep the whole power package) stored for a delayed release. Hold it together. Use only Straight Line Delivery Path. Use the Right Leg to brace the Startdown and Release Sections, don’t Push off. Maintain Pivot Lag and Accumulator Lag. Hips will be open at Impact.
You’ll feel like the swing is finished before your Clubhead strikes the ball.

Got a camera?

Put a ball right behind the ball that you are going to chip. Where you have to work to get it up over it . . . then miss it on the way down. Film your normal chip and film that one.

Next hit some full shots but open your body way up, play the ball forward, and have the face pointing left of left . . . film it and see what it looks like.