Is this guy pushing or pulling ?
 

Apology if i am doing wrong re. legal aspects but these are images from Getty Images website.... http://www.gettyimages.com/Home.aspx...to which I have no link.

First photo really looks like pulling...everything is in line for pulling (forearm etc)...



Now look at this one:-



To get the right wrist this bent long after lowpoint...is that a result of the force on the clubhead from the sand...ie. delaying the clubhead as the hands move forward...or is there an element of right arm active thrust that gives this appearance...

The last photo is actualy reproduced on the cover of the book(novel/non-fiction) "The Match"...just read it...good fun...nice one for the fireside for Christmas!

Dawgiedawg . . . looks like the result of a KARATE CHOP to me ???

Pull + push
 

He pushs with the right while pulling with the left. Smart, very smart.:salut: Anybody could.

bts,

Where do you draw the line between hitting and swinging to prevent an automatic angled hinge (hitting) as opposed to a free-wheeling horizontal hinge (swinging)?

If you propose doing both you are over-riding CF with the push and thereby getting angled hinging. Are you proposing a manipulated swing or is your definition of pushing simply extensor action?

Thanks,

Is the bottom image a full swing or a bunker shot where he's hitting the sand first???

Sorting Through the Golf Nut's Catalog.

B-Ray

bunker shot - but looks like a full swing fairway bunker shot.

It's important to know what he was actually doing here......I'm not positive it was a fairway bunker which makes it hard to comment on.

There are players who swing (pull) full swing, but hit or push bunker shots and short game shots....this may be what Hogan was doing.

No matter what he was doing the alignments are solid.

Sorting Through the Duffer's Bible.

B-Ray

He is pulling :eyes:

Bagger,

Sorry to intrude on this thread but I have similar sensations. If my body is pulling (rotation) and my right is pushing (feel) do I not have two forces working in the same direction?

I remember working with a martial artist one time and he said that in order to throw a powerful punch with the right arm you must pull the left back just as hard. This dual motion gave more "snap" to the punch and required very little motion.

It may be just extensor action, or it may be an active right arm thrust adding to the "blast off". Either way I do not think we always need to always put angled with hitting and horizontal with swinging. The players feel will tend to determine what is occuring.

Anyway, as a plane flattens angled hinging moves more to the horizontal, and as it steepens it approaches more vertical. Obviously Hogan was flatter than most so it could be a possibility that the active right arm he so loved actually produced an angled hinge to fight off the hook. I do not know if Mr. Hogan knew if he was hitting or swinging, I do not think he would care. From what I have studied about him, he simply wanted to hit the ball as hard as he could without the hook. Just a thought.

Neil,

How do you know from the picture in the bunker that he is pulling???

Sorting Through the Instructor's Textbook.

B-Ray

Work Horse
 

I have put this on before that I got from a friend in Atlanta... "Is the horse PULLING the wagon, or PUSHING against the collar?" "You would have to ask the horse."

the push or pull question I was asking stemmed from the fact that the bent right wrist retained its bent appearance well beyond low point - ie. the hands were moving up but wrist was still bent...

So is that possible with a pull??

(The connection to the photos is down...maybe getty images got annoyed....sorry but i did reference them and provide a link to their website....)

Lagster,

I agree with you completely here that is the same thing I've been taught by several friends in Atlanta as well :wink:

However Neil stated he is pulling.

Golfbulldog,

In regards to your post....yes the right wrist can be bent well beyond low point...if they maintain their flying wedges.

Sorting Through the Instructor's Textbook.

B-Ray

Huh?
 

Lagster,
Let's admit that, that " friend" is Bucket - not the sharpest tool in the chest!

Pull is towards you and Push is away from you. Doesn't matter if I'm behind the wagon Pushing it or behind the collar Pushing it- their both pushes. Since in your example, the horse is in front of the Wagon and essentially bringing the wagon towards the horse -the horse is pulling the wagon. Assuming the horse is facing forward in the same direction as the wagon is moving- then he'll be pushing on the collar while pulling the wagon. If he turns around and grabs the collar with his teeth- then the horse would be pulling the wagon and pulling the collar. It's all in the context of what direction the mover is moving or trying to move an object in relation to the moving entity.

I tried this experiment last night- I took my Jeep and tied a 20 foot rope to the bumper. I then tied the rope around a passed out Bucket (I'm not going into detail how he ended up that way) and I Pushed the Jeep which Pulled Bucket across the road. Here's the good part- I didn't know how the 2nd half of the experiment would work but sure enough when the Jeep went over the edge of the cliff- it Pulled Bucket down with it. Unfortunately, he survived- Hey, I'll try again next week!:happy3:

Somebody sound the alarm Admiral Retard is BACK!
 

. . . blah blah blah blah . . .

Mikey . . . did you have to resurface so close to Christmas.
You're a vile one, Mr. Grinch.
You have termites in your smile.
You have all the tender sweetness
Of a seasick crocodile.
Mr. Grinch.

Given the choice between the two of you
I'd take the seasick crockodile.

You're a foul one, Mr. Grinch.
You're a nasty, wasty skunk.
Your heart is full of unwashed socks
Your soul is full of gunk.
Mr. Grinch.

When will you go back under your rock and stop playing your Twisted Sister 8-track at full blast in old folk homes parking lots while eating cheetoz nekkid and reading Sargent Fury comic books with boogerz stuck to the pages?

Mike O + Internet Forum = Mike O ran out of lotion

:happy3: :eyes: :happy3: :eyes: :happy3: :eyes: :happy3: :eyes:

B Ray ,
Just my opinion.Looking at the amount of hip rotation.Perhaps I should have said "he started by pulling".
I certainly think he is swinging-hence the "pull". But since he is in the follow through ,is he still pulling or has CF taken over?
Or is he pushing? Just my opinion
Cheers B Ray:eyes:

Mike O ,
Lets try that again -you push your Jeep,Bucket tied to the rope ,I will PULL my Jeep(using a rope tied to the front hitch tug o war style).We can then tie another rope to Bucket and see who gets the biggest piece(hopefully you).
But i promise I will Pull as hard as I can -by Pushing against the ground.

If I even get a small piece of Bucket you can have it anyway!:occasion:

Friends
 

Neil,
I knew I could count on you! I'll drive the El Ranchero over and we'll discuss the details- but this time be ready! Remember last time - I drive 14 hours and when I show up you are looking in the mirror at your golf swing- haven't even gone to home depot for the rope and cement!!!:naughty:

Oh Ya- "But i promise I will Pull as hard as I can -by Pushing against the ground." Nice job grasshopper!

If you look at 9-2-11#1 or 9-3-11 {6th edition) do you see a big difference to the Hogan photo?:golf:

Neil,

Just curious as to what you were looking at as I've never heard a definitive to look at a picture and tell if the player is swinging or hitting.

I've been told it's really what the player feels they are doing. For the right handed player do they feel like they're pushing with the right side or pulling with the left???

Also I believe a player can have the amount of hip rotation that Hogan does in the pictures and still hit (push).

However, with any player as long as the alignments (flying wedges intact) are solid and repeatable they will be succesful!!!

Sorting Through the Circuit Player's Handbook.

B-Ray

You've got to promise to take the "parts" home first Mike O, -we have very strict pollution controls in Florida!:)

Agreed B Ray;
I just believe that Hogan was a swinger who pushed with his right arm-or thought he did.Maybe he did ,maybe it was his version of extensor action.
But I am certain he was a swinger -and therefore pulled.He may have pushed also-but he pulled.:)

Mike O ,I can sense INCOMING!

You two dorks in an El Ranchero . . . there's going to be some arrests for Crimes Against Nature . . . make sure you look at the map right side up this time . . .

Neil and Mikey sittin' in a tree . . .

dork is a bit rude!

Perhaps the sand is providing resistance, pushing back if you will! This perhaps lends to the appearance that Hogan is pushing? I read this merely for the juvenile banter!

Hey,Okie -I'm no juvenile!

Any comments?

What is this about apologizing for "intruding"? Champ...you aren't intruding enough!

There are some who can't swing if the right arm is actively driving.

There are some who can't hit if the left side is actively pulling.

I'm really black and white about this because for me, I fall into the two camps above. If you can blend and have an effective pattern, it sounds like a very balanced approach.

Ted is one who spent most of his golfing career as a swinger then moved to hitting. I can't speak for him but have to assume that the right side push is huge compared to the left side contribution. In otherwords, not an equalized effort. If true, I would assume something similar for swinging.

Yo...Ted...Hey Nukester...you can intrude here too.

pull and push
 

I think that mr Hogan did both pull and push. Pull with his left side and push with his right. Just like starting up and old boat motor.
simon w

From the ground up?
 

I'd say the wagon is being pulled and the horse is pushing against the ground then the collar. Just wondering if this gives any insight to swinging from the feet?

One more vote.. he is mixing components.. He is hitting.

I think there is very very little difference in hitting or swinging , he did it in Rhythm, a 4rbarrel...

" I wish I have 3 right hand" Ben Hogan. and the way he does his backswing, I would not call that a start up swivel .

just my opinion :)

He started his downswing with a hip turn-and a shallowing of the plane "feel".
Is that a hitting proceedure?:dontknow:

But only the Right Arm can Hit. If he is using a Pitch Elbow position, then isn't he still dragging?

Or swinging his right arm?

That I dont think have to do with it. The reason he did that is cause he uses the shallowest plane possible with very deep arm position.. If he don't do that, he will have too much inside out = Hook. He need to start up with a more rotary hip motion so that the plane will be more square... The most important thing is to move the hip parallel to the plane line...

I don't think hitting is necessarily a turned shoulder plane. or 10-5-E.. TGM have choices. 12.5 1 and 2 is just a "guideline"

Hogan definitely knows how to shape his shots and that require a different impact and vectors alignments.

Getting a Feel for this.
 

Sensing such strong Clubhead Lag can give one the impression that they need more support in their Right Hand and #3 PP to sustain the feel through Impact.

thats a great point..

Exactly.
I don't believe Hogan was a hitter-too quick for maximum compression.