Croker / Martin Green TGM hitters?
 

Still somewhat new to TGM, but Im confused about hitting and swinging. Ive got Martin Greens video which is pretty good and have seen Crokers downloads, but Im not sure if "pushing" always equals "hitting", or if its still a CF swing?

Would you say Green is TGM? www.mgga.net
(If you click on his "tip of the month" you can see his swing.)

Curious as to whether Yoda favors hitting (pushing?) to swinging for the average Joe.

Thanks...

I think it's pretty much whatever you do best man.

However you can accelerate that club best to produce the 3 Imparatives most consistently....

...and straight compressed powerful shots.

Body type can be a factor
 

I think if your strong but lack flexability say like Hal Sutton you may be better suited to hitting. Opposite with swinging.

thanks guys, seems like everyone from Green, to Coker, Evershed etc are Yellow Book deciples.

Birdie, have you ever heard of this Leslie King guy?

www.golfpro-online.com/tuition/lking/index.html

Definately a hands lead pivot guy....

Croker
 

I have heard Peter Croker's swing analysis by a G.S.E.D.. He says this is a SWING. His talk about PUSHING, is relating more to Extensor Action.

Green... looks like a SWING also.

Hi ColtsFan,

I know you asked birdie_man but i thought i'd reply as i was taught for about a year by a professional who was taught by Ledley King and graduated from his golf school in Knightsbridge.

IMO he has some interesting ideas but as an overall package it didn't help me, in fact to be honest it destroyed me. I found starting down with the hands particulary hard to implement and also the 'on-line' follow through i was taught didn't seem that compatable with an on-plane downswing.

I must stress though my experience shouldn't be taken as a reflection on Ledley King just how his method was taught to me.

hey Danny,

interesting, so have you found more consistency starting down with your hips instead of your hands? I know the hips starting the DS tends to be the tradtional method, but didnt Homer like a hands lead pivot?

lagster,

Green's got a nice swing, but he doesnt seem to be pulling down with his left arm. In fact in his video he he feels that a pulling action leads to having to make a last second flip of the hands to square it up.

He does seem to incorporate the 3 TGM imperatives in his motion...

ColtsFan, Homer wants you to monitor your hands but for a swinger like me they are pulled down by your body, the bump of the hips allows them to be pulled down on plane.

For me starting with the hands made my downswing very quick, i would loose my lag pressure too early and suffer from snap hooks.

Overacceleration....(casting)...

Ya....you try to direct your hands to a spot...(at or ahead of the ball or wherever you're aiming your thrust...this is Aiming Point).....but what ACTUALLY moves them is your body.

Watch Hogan.....mad hip slide.....(without his head moving forward too much- this is how Axis Tilt [spine tilt] happens BTW).....watch his left knee....move towards the target.

Mind in the hands tho (where you are directing them)....but the body does the actual moving of them.

As for that King dude.....

(here: www.golfpro-online.com/tuition/lking/index.html)

That's a pretty cool site anyway....lots of pics and swing stuff....(if you click on the lessons at the bottom of the page)

I skimmed through it....and a lot of seems to be pretty good.....the setup stuff seemed to be good (from what I got out of it from very quickly skimming)....

But then I got to lesson 6...

"The clubface MUST not roll open in the backswing."

...

Seems to be method teaching...

I mean....this would work for Palmer, Trevino, Lema, Irwin, Funk, Duval, etc...(anyone with that kind of clubface control)

But not for Hogan, Mickelson, Jones, blah blah blah etc. etc.

Personally, that guy wouldn't be a good fit for me...(I use Standard Wrist Action....i.e. with a swivel in the takeaway and right before the Release)...

Skimming more...

Some good stuff...

But lots of "musts" (turns me off...method teaching) and not lots of "whys" to back em up. (from what I can see anyway)

Teaches a strong grip ("strong" as in the mainstream meaning of strong...i.e. Turned in TGM)....and apparently you "must" do it.

Judging by the pictures, he seems to like a Snap (very late) Release with an Arched left wrist at Impact....which is good of course.

Again from the pictures, he also seems to have, in my opinion, a good handle on the pivot...

....Pivot Alignments anyway (in my opinion)....not sure about Physics.

...

Still...too many generalizations and "musts" IMO...(kind of anti TGM with regard to options)....

Doesn't talk about any kind of Hinging or post-Impact hand Alignments in these articles.

...

K I'm done...

Haha...that's my review...

(bear in mind he may have evolved since these articles or something like that....but who knows)

Pull
 

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////

What people FEEL may not be what is happening. With SWINGING there is a PULL, but often this is a RESULT of doing other things properly. A proper on plane right shoulder motion, for example, can set up the gyroscopic motion of a SWINGER, which has a PULLLING going on.

With HITTING, the hands usually stop at the TOP, AND OFTEN APPEAR TO NEARLY PAUSE before the start down. Of course, some HITTERS APPEAR very much like swingers, with very subtle things going on that make their pattern be classified a HIT, rather tha a SWING.

REMEMBER the story I had told to me... Is the horse PULLING the wagon, or PUSHING against the collar? You would have to ask the horse.

Crocker & Evershed
 

Crocker never speaks of the right hand. He is a Swinger by my guess. Power by pivot and transfer.

Evershed on the other hand speaks solely of the right hand and no transfer accumulator but with a horizontal hinge action.

Machines of every shape and function.

TGM epipany
 

good stuff guys, all of you...I gotta tell you guys last night I think I had a TGM Ephifany that will probably make this Leslie King stuf a moot point. I feel feel like shelving all the books and print out I have (King, E Jones, B Jones, Hogans 5 Lessons, Bertholy SC101, Armour, Flick, et al)
and track down a 7th Edition YB and Brians flipper video. I cant lose what I found last night or be pretty bummed

What I did over 3 holes was just take that reverse K (TGM impact fix?) set up position with an 8 iron, took a nice full turn, came back down with my rt. shoulder tracing, as close as I could, down the target line. From there I just tried to mimmick as much as I could those photos of imapact postions in Lynn's gallery, I think its "Chamions at Impact"(head back, flat to slightly bowed left wrist, shoulders square hips open)

What happened was incredible, Ive never hit irons that crisp, with that kind of unbelievable trajectory in my life.:laughing9 All with a pretty swing. Im sold guys...Where is the best place to get a 7th edition or would a 6th edt. be ok for newbie?
Thanks for your input on King, Green and Croker...

uh... I guess Im too excited to spell lets go with "Epiphany"

6B,

Peter Croker is all right hand/arm. Just check out Peter's videos and articles in Golf Digest it's all about using the right hand...

DG

LEFT HAND or RIGHT?
 

Dear Mike,

Firstly I believe you are referring to me, and it is "Croker" - non "Crocker" (that was Kojak's sidekick)

Secondly you must not have reviewed much of the Croker Golf System.
Perhaps a look at this 24 Component Analysis by Paul Hart (G.S.E.D.) of CGS will help you understand how I use both left and right hand actively in the swing.(and you can Hit or Swing using our System.)
When the alignments are known and understood, the use of both hands in a "PUSHING" orientation is the entrance point to building Control first and Power second.

What CGS has defined is the detailed definitions of the basics of an "uncompensating" golf swing.
Once you have positively identified these basics and their alignments, you can decide whether you want to swing or hit.
It is my belief from my study of Homers works that the alignments can be the same for both.
It is my preference at my stage in my golfing life that I can hit it further and with much less stress on my back and other body parts, if I swing (ie: maximize the rotational forces in the swing motion and use my muscle thrust to maintain structure and move the club on the correct path both back and down, out, and through the ball to a balanced finish.
I appreciate your interest in wanting to define what CGS does, but I would recommend a thorough study first before making such statements as done here.
Homer had it right when he stresses the need for "Educated Hands."
Tom Tomasello was right too when he talked about the value of opinions.

The Croker Golf System acknowledges Homer Kelley for his great work in giving us a Plan of Action - "The 24 Components."

CGS has defined precisely 24 Components that align one to the next and when drilled into a complete motion, allow a golfer to have a)CONTROL, b) POWER, and c) CONSISTENCY.

CGS does have a "preferred pattern" from "A to Z"!

Do you know what it is?

I look forward to your researched answer and the questions that will follow.

Kind regards,
Peter:read: :)

Dear DG,

I am afraid that such material as was in Golf Digest Cover Story 1995 is only a part of the total picture of the "Croker Golf System."

The right hand is super important, but so is the left.

Did you know that the left hand can "push" in the downswing??

When it does it helps build structure through impact and also is a major cause of the left hip's continued rotation well through impact, follow through, and into the finish.

Perhaps a study of the updates of CGS are worth the effort of further research?:read::)

PUSHING = Swinging and Hitting!
 

Dear Coltsfan,

Just to clear a definition: Pushing = Pressure against something and maintained or increased.
You cannot move anything in this universe without involving a "pushing action" unless a vacuum is involved.

Therefore when I define "Pushing" I am always looking to the "Pressure Points" and their combinations.

This means that within Croker Golf System a golfer has the choice of either "Hitting" or "Swinging".

I do not believe you have studied our Video Downloads thoroughly enough or have downloaded them all. Otherwise you would have removed much of your "CONFUSION."

Please do the drills that are part of each Video Download and you will quickly bring feel and better understanding of a preferred motion customised to you.

KInd regards,
Peter:read: :)

EVOLVING from HITTING to SWINGING!
 

[quote=lagster]I have heard Peter Croker's swing analysis by a G.S.E.D.. He says this is a SWING. His talk about PUSHING, is relating more to Extensor Action.


Dear Lagster,

In the swing analysis done by Paul Hart (G.S.E.D.)I give my "preferred motion."
However for someone starting out into learning to swing a golf club, a shorter "Hitting" motion has less moving parts.

To me it is an evolution. The more skilled you become, the more relaxed you can make your muscles and the more the centrifugal force can take effect.

Alignments are first and then power follows. That is my take on it at this point in time.

Kind Regards,

Peter:)

Straight from the "horses mouth"...
 

Straight from the "horses mouth"...pushing the collar or pulling the wagon...hmmm....Thanks Peter ...for your insight and correction...

Thanks Peter, I really like your site btw. I'd heard you and Martin Green had worked together for a while, and I just got his "Push for Perfection" video. The cart and the horse analogy that Anikan mentioned and Martin talked about in his video have cleared things up.

Im sticking to the TGM "swing model" after some great success I had a couple nights ago keeping a FLW and ending up in the "Chanpions at Impact" pictures here on Lynns site.

I was amazed after just taking a real easy, smooth swing how far and straight I hit the ball. Just concentrated on an exagerated FLW and keeping my head over my right knee at impact. IM SOLD ON TGM!

You do mention the right arm but you never talked about the right hand. I was going to go back and view the Hart series to double check but I see you are now selling them along with the Lynn Blake version of the TT tapes that Delaware Golf provided this forum and the video “letters” from Lee D. They are still free here, I think.

I watched the series a few weeks back and was surprised that with all the right side talk that the right hand wasn’t mentioned. Really. But I didn’t get to double check. I don’t remember you talking about its FBL condition or about the Flying Wedges, etc. You do talk about a sweep- early release of the right arm on the downswing. A throw from the top. Evershed never stops talking about the condition of the right hand and wrist- that bent sucker is his god.


I believe that pull is a left side fling (I can propel a Frisbee with a pull and NEVER push anything) using centrifugal force- pure Newton and a push is a right side drive exploding down off a solid pivot (base).

You cannot push a pull. You cannot pull a push.

Someone can teach a hybrid - a right arm that “swings” moving the center off the left shoulder and onto the right arm elbow. As Homer said you would need loose wrists to put some kind of whirl into the swing. But I think the right arm works best when it straightens through low point- a Hit.

I prefer Homer’s Swing and Hit components. Let Mother Nature Whirl and Blur or the let the Wheaties and Wonder Bread- that built my muscles- do its thing and smash dimples to China. Just my preference. Not saying what you teach is wrong. I know it is a fine golf stroke. It took Lynn Blake to take the Hit pattern that Homer taught and teach it beyond a punch shot or specialty shot TT talks about. It is so different then a Swing, either a pull swing or a push right arm swing.

Options? Plenty. Some work better than others.
Alignments? They never change. On plane is on plane. The Flying Wedges are the same and so forth.
Changes? Whirl or smash. Are you pulling or pushing? Is the pivot rotational or a solid foundation to push off of?

Great man.

Those sound, to me, like a couple good keys you have there....Impact oriented...

All I can say is if you have a decent stroke....build upon it rather than trying to find "another one"....

This even is in TGM....(along with a lot of advice like this)....but even then it's tough to do all these things right (I mean learn a swing) when there's SO many things to pay attention to.

Dunno....just wanted to advize of that....cause there's a lot of info there to "get lost in" (at least for a while...you'd get thru it eventually....esp. with an AI)....

-setup (always go back to this...as much precision and understanding as possible)
-trained pivot
-educated hands
-3 Imparatives (how do YOU repeat them best?)

Mr. Croker (Peter)~

If there is one thing that distinguishes the CGS, for me it is the possibility of eliminating the hip slide in the transition and the coordination requirements that tax the skills of the "average amateur." If I understand your setup correctly, the impact spine tilt is preset at address and the move forward is more "rotational." A key to all of this is understanding how you define the pivot??

DRW

Birdie,

Exactly, the jumping around with swings is only impeding my improvement. Im going to get the 7th edt. before I see Lynn or Brian only because I feel like after studying multiple swings theories I could probably figure out a lot of the so called technical stuff after multiple readings.

Plus if Im going to hang out on this site I need to know the language, so to speak.
Thanks again for your input,youve been helpful....

The PERFECT PIVOT for LEAST BACK STRAIN!
 

Dear Doc,

You are spot on here! Hip slide is not necessary in any large degree when you preset and pivot as we recommend. There is much less chance of back and hip stress too!

Our Pivot Precision video download nails it best!

When the set up has the axis tilt in such an alignment to have the left side (from the hip down) in a vertical condition(our doorway drill for the stance and to help monitor the backswing pivot of the hips) - the hip rotation in the backswing has the right hip turning through the right heel and back in towards the left heel(Ben Hogan did this well). The right knee remains flexed and there is a spring loading of the base from the hips down.
With this coiling action, the left knee motion in the backswing is out in the direction of the left toes. This stops drifting towards the back foot.
This helps the spine tilt remain unchanged through the backswing and at transition, the left hip clears easily and rotates fully and attempts to unwind through the straightening left leg and back into the right foot (similar to a baseball player hitting a home run. At impact they are clearly hitting off and away from their rear foot.)
The releasing hands, arms and club act as a counter balance and the net result is some forward motion of the hips in most cases, but as we say "Shift happens!"
Words are not as good a svideo or "hands on" for understanding precisely what we mean, but this is my best shot at describing in words what the Pivot of the hips does and how to minimize hip slide and therefore the need for a higher skill level and timing.

I appreciate the interest in our TGM Pattern and I am keen to have a personal session with Lynne to share of 24 Component Definitions with "hands on" so that the best understandings can happen.

Kind Regards,
Peter Croker:)

TGM Happenings...Soon To Be Upside Down
 

Thank you for posting, Peter.

I respect your life-long work in Golf as a player, instructor and knowledgeable proponent of TGM. Most of all, I respect your non-confrontational means of moving golf forward.

:)

I am sure our paths will cross one day, and I truly am looking forward to it.

:salut:

Golf – originally a game for gentlemen. Great to see there are still instructors naturally inclined that way!!!

Understanding impact - seeing it - the image in your mind, is a very powerful thing.

Congratulations on being able to "imagine impact" and getting the results that follow ;)

EdZ,

With regards to imagination, Ive got Ernie Els book and video, would you say he was a TGM preferred swinger before Leadbetter? His tempo is incredible and in looking at his impact position in the book, it looks very much like the "Champions at Impact" pictures.

I know there is no ONE TGM swing per say, but Ive heard guys like Toms, Elkington, old Els swing, and Hogan may be considered TGM model swingers?

Thanks

Indeed - few have the 'swinging force' as well as Els does. Couples, Snead, Jones are other prime examples.